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Author Topic: my 69 Z being restored  (Read 8392 times)
motorman
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« on: April 14, 2013, 12:04:35 PM »

picture of my factory painted eveing orchid being painted
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 01:30:57 PM »

Evening orchid?    Were you going to the PROM?     Smiley
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motorman
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 03:55:33 PM »

the wife wanted a purple car.  the color that was never available on a camaro according to the experts
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 08:11:21 PM »

I have seen that color on quite a few '65  Chevelles and Impalas, but not on a Camaro
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 12:47:26 AM »

so your saying this car was special order paint back in 69 and that specified color was evening orchid?
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 01:36:07 AM »

Oh no, not again.....
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 03:02:04 AM »

Yikes!
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 04:30:18 AM »

I believe Pontiac used it as well. Seen it on a 67 Firebird and a 65 GTO. Unusual color and unique to say the least. You have definately got to be confident in yourself for a man to drive a car that color as my dad would say.
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motorman
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 10:46:12 AM »

Oh no, not again.....
yep the paid know all there is to know about Z/28s experts screwed up and still will not admit their mistake. i bet i was driving and autocrossing Z/28 before these experts came on the scene.
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motorman
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 10:49:36 AM »

so your saying this car was special order paint back in 69 and that specified color was evening orchid?
yes you got it. i had corvettes,pickups and full sized chevy painted special order colors starting back in the early 60s
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 03:21:08 PM »

Neat color for sure and a very unique Z28. There is a thread on Team Camaro that Brad posted about finding the car, connecting with Clem for the original documentation and the current restoration.   
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 04:25:04 PM »

Oh no, not again.....
yep the paid know all there is to know about Z/28s experts screwed up and still will not admit their mistake. i bet i was driving and autocrossing Z/28 before these experts came on the scene.
The thread at Team Camaro only recently got unlocked, at the specific request of the current owner of your old car, on condition that the color issue was left in the past and thus allowing the thread to move forward as a build thread. Reviving the discussion on another forum brought about my comment, nothing more.
Does Brad know about this new thread?
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »

I corrected myself...I thought it was orchid, my bad. It's the same as mine. Cortez Silver.
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 04:49:34 PM »

Oh no, not again.....
yep the paid know all there is to know about Z/28s experts screwed up and still will not admit their mistake. i bet i was driving and autocrossing Z/28 before these experts came on the scene.

Let's not start the war all over again on this site. No need for the negativity. 
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 04:56:49 PM »

To be honest, the older pics of the paint look silver. My gut said orchid at first until I read what everyone else had thought. Now I'm going back to what I originally thought, Orchid. That is going to be one unique looking car. Should draw some attention.
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I'm "GaryC" from Clayton Delaware.

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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2013, 09:41:14 PM »

Not trying to stir this up - I haven't followed the TC thread at all.
I've seen pics of Evening Orchid and seen cars. IMO, it doesn't match the pics of this car that I've seen (or what others describe seeing). But the pics do show some color.
The best suggestion I've heard is 1969 Olds #81 Flamingo Silver. It's has a some lavender in it and it's a 69 color.
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 07:25:07 AM »

The car was an original silver car with stripe delete.  Bill Glowacki and I both inspected what was left of the original paint on the car.  We pulled off the door panels and checked the virgin paint with no UV damage.  It was not Evening Orchid,

Jerry 
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motorman
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 08:33:28 AM »

i still can't believe that some posters believe the expert over the original owner who ordered the car. i know jerry is a god here but he is not god almighty.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 08:38:02 AM »

To be honest, the older pics of the paint look silver. My gut said orchid at first until I read what everyone else had thought. Now I'm going back to what I originally thought, Orchid. That is going to be one unique looking car. Should draw some attention.
Yep, that's a pretty color... for a girl...   Smiley     
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »

To be honest, the older pics of the paint look silver. My gut said orchid at first until I read what everyone else had thought. Now I'm going back to what I originally thought, Orchid. That is going to be one unique looking car. Should draw some attention.
Yep, that's a pretty color... for a girl...   Smiley     
it was for a girl it was for my wife !!
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 08:53:00 AM »

I remember seeing '65 Chevelles in that color when they were new; was different, and pretty... but I'm the guy who ordered a '70 Roadrunner in the Limelight color and a 70 Challenger RT/SE in purple! .. but I will use the excuse that the purple challenger was for my wife!!  Smiley     
PS.  I never knew the name was 'evening orchid' and was just teasing about the 'prom'.. That color did tend to fade badly with age and exposure to the sun's uv... but I'd suppose you're using modern base/clear which should be less susceptible.   The newly painted cars I've seen in that color seem to be a bit more 'orchid' than I recall when they were new...
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60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 08:55:45 AM »

The car was an original silver car with stripe delete.  Bill Glowacki and I both inspected what was left of the original paint on the car.  We pulled off the door panels and checked the virgin paint with no UV damage.  It was not Evening Orchid,

Jerry  
give it up jerry you guys screwed up. unless someone took the VIN from my 69 Z and put it on a silver car you are just CYA. the cowl cutout fpr the cold air cleaner also proves it was my Z/28. ask your buddy john hinkley about my car as he knew about the eveing orchid Z/28 long before this showed up on the camaro web sites because of my posts about it on the vetteheads web site
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 10:51:31 AM »

I did not screw anything up.  I inspected the car just like I do any other car.  The owner at that time also agreed with Bill and me during my evaluation.  Bill G. and I have been doing this for most of our lives.  I know the Evening Orchid color very well and remember the '65 Impalas from my neighborhood in this color.  It is one of my favorites.  Show me the original order form where is says code "P" or special order paint Evening Orchid and then we'll sit down and talk.  I have the photos in my data base from my inspection that show it as Argent silver or something very close to that.  Even the original photos show that.  End of story.  If you wanted to paint the car Evening orchid, you can do what ever you want to do.  It's your car.  Good luck with your project.       
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »

Here's a clear photo with the roof rail track removed from the pillar area showing the original silver color.  Does not look like Evening orchid to me?
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« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2013, 11:22:03 AM »

Clem,
Discuss the topic, not the person! Personal attacks are not allowed here. 1st and only warning.
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« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2013, 11:29:19 AM »

Clem,
Discuss the topic, not the person! Personal attacks are not allowed here. 1st and only warning.
I did not screw anything up.  I inspected the car just like I do any other car.  The owner at that time also agreed with Bill and me during my evaluation.  Bill G. and I have been doing this for most of our lives.  I know the Evening Orchid color very well and remember the '65 Impalas from my neighborhood in this color.  It is one of my favorites.  Show me the original order form where is says code "P" or special order paint Evening Orchid and then we'll sit down and talk.  I have the photos in my data base from my inspection that show it as Argent silver or something very close to that.  Even the original photos show that.  End of story.  If you wanted to paint the car Evening orchid, you can do what ever you want to do.  It's your car.  Good luck with your project.       
why would i pick that color out of thin air if it was not the original color?
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« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2013, 11:32:57 AM »

Clem,
Discuss the topic, not the person! Personal attacks are not allowed here. 1st and only warning.
jerry is calling me a liar or senile as remembering what color my car was. that is what i would call a personal attack.  he never sawthe car till after it was repainted so he is only guessing.
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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »

Not calling anyone a liar.  Just stating facts from my inspection on the car and a nice close up photo to back up my findings of silver paint under the roof rail trim.  Let the readers decide for themselves.  I have the invoice to the car too.  It does NOT state Evening orchid on it.   
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motorman
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 12:19:21 PM »

Not calling anyone a liar.  Just stating facts from my inspection on the car and a nice close up photo to back up my findings of silver paint under the roof rail trim.  Let the readers decide for themselves.  I have the invoice to the car too.  It does NOT state Evening orchid on it.   
you are posting that i have no idea what color MY car was and i would say that is calling me a liar when i say it wqs EO from the factory. looks like the new owner has more faith in my opinion than yours. i belive you do not want this one of a kind special paint camaro to take the place of your camaro as the one the camaro fans talk about.
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2013, 12:29:26 PM »

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. 

Just so you know, I am in the process of restoring a '65 Impala SS396 convertible for myself.  I looked six years to find the right number's matching car.  I was going to paint it Evening Orchid but then decided against it because of the rare interior color and advise from other big car experts.  So, it's going back as Ermine white as it was from the factory.   
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2013, 12:37:31 PM »

Looking at the pic from where I sit it looks like the paint has a lavender tint to it. My 69 is Cortez Silver with 3 different paint jobs on it but the door jambs have never been touched. Looking at the old paint in my garage under inside lighting and then outside looks way different, but it doesn't look like it has that same tint in the pic. Without being there to see the original color it is really hard to tell what it is. Just my thoughts. Even in KurtS pic it obviously looks Cortez Silver or whatever that silver is, but has a tint to me.

Question, if Cortez Silver was available why would it be painted Silver and have a - B? From what I understand from reading and research the Dash could mean anything. In this case no stripes. I have seen a Dark Blue or whatever the blue that the factory used, on a 70 Chevelle SS with -  - on trim plate also. Car had no stripes.  I don't see an issue here about paint, but what I see mostly is DISRESPECT for a fellow car enthusiast.  


Here's a clear photo with the roof rail track removed from the pillar area showing the original silver color.  Does not look like Evening orchid to me?
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 12:49:09 PM »

Lock time is near!!!
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 01:23:22 PM »

A little off the exact topic but my 66 gto with Tiger Gold and Black Vinyl top says SPECIAL 2 on the trim tag. The PHS doc,s says SPECIAL for the paint code also. I have seen SPECIAL on other cars as well. So did some GM plants used -- and some SPECIAL? And wonder how the factory new what color to use Since it not on any of my docs .My only proof is photos of the disassembly of a non restored but cheaply repainted car Just wondering. And wonder what a original window sticker would said.
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 01:36:01 PM »

Here's a clear photo with the roof rail track removed from the pillar area showing the original silver color.  Does not look like Evening orchid to me?
Well. that photo under the roof rail *definitely* looks like it was originally the lavendor color!   I have a '69 Corvette in Cortez Silver (the same as the silver color on Camaros), and the cortez silver has NO lavender/pink in it at all!~
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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2013, 01:43:45 PM »

Motorman?  CLEM?  Is that you?   *S*   
If that area exposed in Jerry's photo is indicative of your entire car (originally), it's definitely the lavendor orchid color!~   and I definitely know that you know what you are talking about.   and I recall you talking about buying a Z28 for your wife at that time....  now that all the pieces are coming together.!

I hope you are doing well, since it's been a few years since I saw you at the Vetteheads tent in Carlisle *S*
Hey!  and that carburetor you rebuilt under the tent is still working great on my '72 (previously mine, then Ed's, and now mine again)....     
 *(although I really had my doubts it would ever work watching you rebuild it and tossing parts that you said..   'Ah we don't need that'..    not to mention the alcohol taht was put away under that tent.. and not even mentioning the strawberrys..  Smiley

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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2013, 01:45:45 PM »

Gentlemen, we can battle this till the cows come home, but let's not. It's already been done over on the original TC thread. We'll accomplish nothing by drudging this up again.

Ed
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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2013, 02:11:54 PM »

There are times they do come home!  Cheesy
 
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2013, 02:19:30 PM »

 Pictures and the screen cannot be relied upon for accurate hue and value representation. Unless of course the colors being compared are dramatically different. Radiosity, metamerism, camera settings, lighting, and environment can make a color appear differently when these are changed. Photographers, artists and auto painters who understand color and photograpy know this; most car enthusiasts do not. The first and second photos of the car in question are a perfect example, they do not appear the same.

Someone mentioned they do not recall today's new paint in EO being the same as it was 40 years ago. For one thing, the tints in paint systems today are different. And the mind cannot remember color to a higher level of accuracy. I have to match color in auto paint and when doing realistic artwork. I can't go by memory to match a color, no artist can. Reference in required.
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2013, 02:25:46 PM »

Motorman?  CLEM?  Is that you?   *S*   
If that area exposed in Jerry's photo is indicative of your entire car (originally), it's definitely the lavendor orchid color!~   and I definitely know that you know what you are talking about.   and I recall you talking about buying a Z28 for your wife at that time....  now that all the pieces are coming together.!

I hope you are doing well, since it's been a few years since I saw you at the Vetteheads tent in Carlisle *S*
Hey!  and that carburetor you rebuilt under the tent is still working great on my '72 (previously mine, then Ed's, and now mine again)....     
 *(although I really had my doubts it would ever work watching you rebuild it and tossing parts that you said..   'Ah we don't need that'..    not to mention the alcohol taht was put away under that tent.. and not even mentioning the strawberrys..  Smiley


yep it is ME !!!
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2013, 02:53:29 PM »

  Not all humans see color the same way due to their brain's color perception characteristics and that is due in part to the number and efficiency of rods and cones in ones eyes. When I give lectures I touch on this very topic of color perception. And as Sauron eluded to, most people don't have their computer monitor's gamma and color space set correctly, if at all. I'm an astro photographer and I deal a lot with color space and proper balance is very important for correct visual presentation and I have seen how hue interpretation can differ widely between people and displayed on monitors so trying to analyze very subtle color hue level changes on a basic PC monitor can be difficult. I use color calibration on my monitor once a month for my main monitor I use for image processing and no calibration on what I call a ‘typical user’ monitor when adjusting astro images and there is definitely a visual difference. I do this so there is a compromise in balance for web presentation.

Mike
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2013, 08:40:42 PM »

Yeah. My wife for one has a very hard time distinguishing colors. When gets her clothes ready for work she always asks me if this matches. Her view of colors is not the same as mine.
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2013, 09:15:15 PM »

and some people are color blind...  Smiley
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60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
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« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2013, 09:21:12 PM »

The man ordered the car. He should know what color he ordered. I have know idea why anyone would doubt him. Every picture I've seen has a lavender hue to it. I'm with ya Clem.
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2013, 08:48:57 AM »

The man ordered the car. He should know what color he ordered. I have know idea why anyone would doubt him. Every picture I've seen has a lavender hue to it. I'm with ya Clem.
there is lot at stake here for people who charge a lot of $$$ to certify these cars. if i had not stepped up a rare 1 of 1 Z/28 would have been lost. also my credibility is at stake here also so i will defend myself with all my power
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« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2013, 11:30:39 AM »

I never weighed in on this.

But.... I love the color (ESPECIALLY with the Black vinyl top), and would have painted it back exactly as it is being painted.   However, given that black top, I would really really be tempted to add black stripes.

As far as the disagreements, well, hopefully we can just agree to disagree.

What a great car.

BTW, didn't read the whole thread, but the earlier Pontiacs that used this color called it Iris Mist.  Saw a Bonneville painted that color and it was killer.

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« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2013, 12:02:36 PM »

Hey Lynn. How about white top and interior, houndstooth or standard, with white stripes. Wouldn't be any less unigue then the Carolina Blue Z28. As Marlon Brando would say, "Gotta have style, gotta have class..."


I never weighed in on this.

But.... I love the color (ESPECIALLY with the Black vinyl top), and would have painted it back exactly as it is being painted.   However, given that black top, I would really really be tempted to add black stripes.

As far as the disagreements, well, hopefully we can just agree to disagree.

What a great car.

BTW, didn't read the whole thread, but the earlier Pontiacs that used this color called it Iris Mist.  Saw a Bonneville painted that color and it was killer.


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« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2013, 08:11:11 PM »

Clem,
When you ordered it, how did you specify the color to the dealer?
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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2013, 08:55:14 PM »

Yeah, what Kurt said.  Share some of the details Clem.  I am just happy to have a guy on here older than me.   And I mean that with the utmost respect.

Gary.  I just don't see this one with white vinyl and white stripes.   Just not enough contrast.   And frankly, I never cared much for the Carolina Blue car.   I have a friend that had a - - Carolina Blue SS with white vinyl top and white hockey stripes.  Didn't do much for me.

Sometimes you just need some contrast.    That is what makes your silver Z stand out.   For instance, ever see a Fathom Green car with black vinyl top and black stripes?   You almost can't see the stripes.   I also don't care for the DY with white striping.  On the other hand, DY Z/28 with black top and stripes is killer, as in killer bee!!!

And lastly, the absolute most beautiful Z/28 I have ever seen was a special order 67.    Tahoe Turquoise with black vinyl top and WHITE  stripes.   I know the black vinyl was supposed to automatically change stripe color.   I spent a lot of time in that car in high school.   Was a GM exec car that went to the exec's' son and was purchased here in Oklahoma City as a used car on a Ford lot.


Sorry sorry sorry for the hijack.  I am blaming Gary.  He asked.
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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2013, 08:55:55 PM »

Yeah. My wife for one has a very hard time distinguishing colors. When gets her clothes ready for work she always asks me if this matches. Her view of colors is not the same as mine.

I have tags of animals on my clothes so I know what goes together for me.  Bear goes with bear and tiger with tiger etc.
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« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2013, 10:09:01 PM »

Yeah. My wife for one has a very hard time distinguishing colors. When gets her clothes ready for work she always asks me if this matches. Her view of colors is not the same as mine.

I have tags of animals on my clothes so I know what goes together for me.  Bear goes with bear and tiger with tiger etc.

Yes but black bear and polar bear go with any animal!
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« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2013, 10:27:26 PM »

Clem,
When you ordered it, how did you specify the color to the dealer?
Clem,
When you ordered it, how did you specify the color to the dealer?
the dealer and i just opened the GM color book and ordered the color. i also have had corvettes,pickups and full size chevys painted non standard colors. my anniversary gold 62 corvette took 14 days from when the order was placed till it showed up at the dealership. quickest new car order i ever got.  since the cars were painted by hand back then it seems the special color ones got a better paint job. i have been told that the paint in cans was put into the cars as they went down the assy line so when it go to the paint area they just opened the cans and put the paint into the guns and painted the cars. .
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 05:11:53 PM »

Motorman, if your dealer and you sat down and opened the color chip book to pick a color, then I assume it was one from 1969. If that is the case then this car was never Evening Orchid, but probably without a doubt it was painted Olds Toronado "Flamingo Silver" code #81. This is similar, but a lot lighter shade of lavender just was what appears to be seen in the picture above of the roofrail. This color was a one year only item used by Buick (Sunset Silver) and Olds for 1969. Not many cars were painted this color either. I can see how this color could be confused to Evening Orchid, but side by side comparisons they are night and day..... The picture of the car from back in the day appears to be this 1969 Buick/Olds color as it is nowhere near dark enough for Evening Orchid.............Just my two cents worth.....................RatPack......................... Are there any pictures of the sides of the cowl panel before restoration began where the original color would have been?
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 05:32:57 PM »

I have seen that Olds color you mentioned - and that is what I believe it is.

Vintage photo shows it as some type of silver with a VERY SLIGHT lavender hue.

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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 05:50:50 PM »

Lynn, I got ya. How old are you? I hit 60 this year myself.

The white could be a fine line for like or dislike for some. Wasn't white or black use for the frost green 69 Camaros? I was thinking in those terms actually. Black and silver always go together, same as Black and gold. My first Z in 74 was Black but I went with gold stripes. Looked good. A friends Z was black with silver stripes. That looked good too. Orchid with black top is fine I think without the stripes. Without the purple tint, orchid is similar to Cortez Silver, so the black stripes would look good too. I've only seen orchid on a few cars that didn't have stripes. 67 Firebird, 65 Impala and a 65 GTO. Hmmmmm.


Yeah, what Kurt said.  Share some of the details Clem.  I am just happy to have a guy on here older than me.   And I mean that with the utmost respect.

Gary.  I just don't see this one with white vinyl and white stripes.   Just not enough contrast.   And frankly, I never cared much for the Carolina Blue car.   I have a friend that had a - - Carolina Blue SS with white vinyl top and white hockey stripes.  Didn't do much for me.

Sometimes you just need some contrast.    That is what makes your silver Z stand out.   For instance, ever see a Fathom Green car with black vinyl top and black stripes?   You almost can't see the stripes.   I also don't care for the DY with white striping.  On the other hand, DY Z/28 with black top and stripes is killer, as in killer bee!!!

And lastly, the absolute most beautiful Z/28 I have ever seen was a special order 67.    Tahoe Turquoise with black vinyl top and WHITE  stripes.   I know the black vinyl was supposed to automatically change stripe color.   I spent a lot of time in that car in high school.   Was a GM exec car that went to the exec's' son and was purchased here in Oklahoma City as a used car on a Ford lot.


Sorry sorry sorry for the hijack.  I am blaming Gary.  He asked.
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 07:50:18 PM »

Motorman, if your dealer and you sat down and opened the color chip book to pick a color, then I assume it was one from 1969. If that is the case then this car was never Evening Orchid, but probably without a doubt it was painted Olds Toronado "Flamingo Silver" code #81. This is similar, but a lot lighter shade of lavender just was what appears to be seen in the picture above of the roofrail. This color was a one year only item used by Buick (Sunset Silver) and Olds for 1969. Not many cars were painted this color either. I can see how this color could be confused to Evening Orchid, but side by side comparisons they are night and day..... The picture of the car from back in the day appears to be this 1969 Buick/Olds color as it is nowhere near dark enough for Evening Orchid.............Just my two cents worth.....................RatPack......................... Are there any pictures of the sides of the cowl panel before restoration began where the original color would have been?
you order by the color code number not the color name just as you order any option by the code number not for example 4 speed trans.
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 08:09:37 PM »

kind of neat that the color on these posts is EO.   Grin Grin
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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 10:05:32 PM »

Clem, can you enlighten us as to what the code number was for Evening Orchid in 1969?.........Since you didn't order by name back then..............RatPack.........
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2013, 08:31:46 AM »

Clem, can you enlighten us as to what the code number was for Evening Orchid in 1969?.........Since you didn't order by name back then..............RatPack.........
i have no idea as that was 40+ YEARS AGO. you will have to check with people who paint cars for a living. i built race engines and did not paint cars.
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2013, 09:19:28 AM »

a lot of time when i ordered a new car i never went to the dealership i would just call my friend on the phone and tell him what i wanted and to call when it came in. he would sometimes hold the order for a week or so because he knew i might change my mind about the color. Grin
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2013, 09:53:16 AM »

question how many guys here on the site owned a new 69 Z/28 ?
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2013, 10:15:03 AM »

Clem,

I'm just guessing, but I'd say probably half the folks on this site weren't born yet in '69... Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2013, 10:28:27 AM »

back in the trans am days i would go to the races as a guest of chevy and they would send me over to the ford pits to see what i could find out. i remember reporting back one time that bud moores mercury's had a oil pan failure,the oil pan failed to hold in the parts that came loose in the engine.   Grin
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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2013, 10:41:02 AM »

Now that's funny. I had to chuckle on that one. FORD=Found On the Racetrack Dead


back in the trans am days i would go to the races as a guest of chevy and they would send me over to the ford pits to see what i could find out. i remember reporting back one time that bud moores mercury's had a oil pan failure,the oil pan failed to hold in the parts that came loose in the engine.   Grin
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2013, 10:46:03 AM »

So is it at least POSSIBLE that you ordered what you THOUGHT was this Evening Orchid color, but it was really that Olds silver color?  Because the Olds color does have a VERY SLIGHT lavender hue to it.  And this was 44 years ago. 

I mean if you were just looking at a book and ordering a color, you might have mistaken one color for another - right?
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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2013, 11:34:15 AM »

So is it at least POSSIBLE that you ordered what you THOUGHT was this Evening Orchid color, but it was really that Olds silver color?  Because the Olds color does have a VERY SLIGHT lavender hue to it.  And this was 44 years ago.  

I mean if you were just looking at a book and ordering a color, you might have mistaken one color for another - right?
NO my eye sight was very good back then so i knew what color the i was ordering. the only similarity between the colors you are referring to is they are both metallic.  i never heard of the olds color. i still can't believe you guys would take the word of someone who was guess as to the color vs the person who orderd and owned the car. people make mistakes and jerry made one. also EO was used on chevy products not the olds colors. why would i order a different silver color when my wife wanted a purple car that turned out not to be purple enough for her. Grin
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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2013, 12:04:28 PM »

Clem:  Since we don't have the original ordering and factory paperwork for documentation, the basic issue is 'What special paint options' did GM provide in 1969?  Was it limited to existing GM (current year) paint codes, OR did they allow special orders in any color they could reasonably buy the paint for - ie back to 65?
I don't know the answer, but if it was limited to '69 colors, then the Buick sunset silver and olds flamingo silver were '69 GM paint options that are extremely close to the color being discussed.  There was also one or more Cadillac colors that seemed to have a bit more 'pink' than the olds/buick color if that was available for special order also.   What were the 'special paint' rules employed in the Camaro factory (Norwood I assume since you are in PA) for the '69 model year?   Up into the late 70's or early 80's, at least, it was possible to buy 'factory pack' lacquer paint in essentially any prior GM colors used.  I bought a gallon or 'hugger orange' acrylic lacquer in the late 70's that I just popped the top off a couple of days ago.. Smiley

1969 GM colors:  The Buick 'Sunset Silver' and Oldsmobile's 'flamingo silver' shared the same GM Paint code:   WA3956,
1965 GM colors:  The Chevelle 'Evening Orchid' and Pontiac's 'Iris Mist' share the same GM paint code:  WA3308
It would be very interesting to compare the color compositions (formulas) between the two colors; I'd bet we'd all be surprised how little difference there is in the formulas...  and we should all remember that in '65 and '69 (and in fact thru the late '70's into the early 80's), GM only painted in lacquer, which is very subject to fading over the years, depending on the exposure to the sun's UV and the elements.

Example of the '65 WA3308 on a GTO which is extremely close to the exposed paint under the camaro roof rail, and which is MUCH less 'pink' than the b/c paint shown previously on the camaro being restored.

I don't know the answers here, but I do think it's possible that no one in the argument is *wrong*...  Smiley
Without more documentation re the specific order or specific documentation on GM 'rules for special paint' ordering, I think we are all simply voicing 'opinions'.   And 44 yrs after the fact is a LONG time to ask someone questions like "what was the paint code on the order.. etc..."   Hell..  I have problems at times remembering what I had for breakfast this morning.. Smiley

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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2013, 12:22:56 PM »

Seeing the color shot of the car being painted brought back a lot of memories for me - my dad had a '65 Impala in this same color -  we called it the Purple Panther - eventually traded it for a '68 Impala Custom Coupe in Gold/Black VT. Never forgot the color -

Over the years, I have seen several '65 Impalas restored with this code - I used to flinch when I saw it, but have actually started to appreciate it. Certainly unique -

Steve
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2013, 12:32:48 PM »

Seeing the color shot of the car being painted brought back a lot of memories for me - my dad had a '65 Impala in this same color -  we called it the Purple Panther - eventually traded it for a '68 Impala Custom Coupe in Gold/Black VT. Never forgot the color -

Over the years, I have seen several '65 Impalas restored with this code - I used to flinch when I saw it, but have actually started to appreciate it. Certainly unique -

Steve
that is why when i ordered the car i specified EO to the dealer because i was familiar with 65 impalas that color. it looked purple to me. but i the wife wanted something along the lines of mopar plum crazy so she was not happy with her purple car. back then we had purple rooms in our house and the wife wore a lot of purple outfits.
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2013, 12:52:18 PM »

The 'wild' Chrysler colors (Plum Crazy, LemonLime, etc) were not introduced until the 1970 model year.  I don't recall a 'purple' factory color from any of the manufacturers prior to 1970.  At the time, the Chrysler wild colors were VERY different... Smiley   (I special ordered a lime green '70 Roadrunner in the fall of 1969, and bought my wife a '70 Challenger RT/SE in the plum crazy color in 1970.
Incidentally, Chrysler used only Acrylic Enamel in 1970, in fact, even back into the 60's and possibly the 50's.   They were the first of the US auto companies to switch to acrylic enamel (rather than lacquer) and that was one of the reasons Chrysler got the 'quality' rap they did back then.   Ford converted from lacquer to enamel sometime after Chrysler, and GM was the last US company to cling to use of acrylic lacquer (~1980 timeframe)..
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2013, 01:31:22 PM »

Clem,  Were there stripes on the car when you ordered it? Or was it a Special paint and Stripe Delete.
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2013, 02:01:32 PM »

both stripes delete and special paint. my 68 Z/28 and my 70 454/450HP were stripes delete as i like stealth cars. remember these were the days you paid for your car street racing so you did not want to show your hand.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2013, 05:05:15 PM »

I often heard that all the GM car manufactures used the same paint for that particular year but all had their own name for it. For an example in 69 my Judge was one for the initial 2000 built with Carousel Red and Chevrolet called it Hugger Orange. I don't know for sure because I have never seen the 2 cars together side by side if there was a difference. Weren't the colors available across the board for any GM vehicle?
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2013, 05:08:46 PM »

That's mostly true, but there were some 'unique colors' to each brand.   Pontiac Carousel Red and Camaro 'Hugger Orange' are the same paint..
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2013, 10:44:07 PM »

The 'wild' Chrysler colors (Plum Crazy, LemonLime, etc) were not introduced until the 1970 model year.  I don't recall a 'purple' factory color from any of the manufacturers prior to 1970

Let's not forget the 1967 Camaro available with Royal Plum, which is considered a purple.
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2013, 10:58:50 PM »


When you ordered it, how did you specify the color to the dealer?

In 1985, I was shopping for a new Chevy pick up in a shade of green. No greens were offered in the RPO list that year. My regular dealer said no problem, if I was able to wait for a special order. He brought out a large GM book, flipped open to a page of green paint chips and said pick the color you want.  I made my choice and did have to wait for an extended time to get my truck. I happened to see my truck on the carrier going down the freeway being delivered to my dealer. It was a standout next to the other drab earth tones offered that year. 
Remember this was in 1985, computerized ordering and such and I got what I wanted. I'm sure GM was much more  flexible in 69.
I still have my green pickup by the way!
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« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2013, 07:22:04 AM »

The 'wild' Chrysler colors (Plum Crazy, LemonLime, etc) were not introduced until the 1970 model year.  I don't recall a 'purple' factory color from any of the manufacturers prior to 1970

Let's not forget the 1967 Camaro available with Royal Plum, which is considered a purple.

i built a 430 cu in tunnel ram drag engine for a camaro that was that color
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« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2013, 07:25:01 AM »


When you ordered it, how did you specify the color to the dealer?

In 1985, I was shopping for a new Chevy pick up in a shade of green. No greens were offered in the RPO list that year. My regular dealer said no problem, if I was able to wait for a special order. He brought out a large GM book, flipped open to a page of green paint chips and said pick the color you want.  I made my choice and did have to wait for an extended time to get my truck. I happened to see my truck on the carrier going down the freeway being delivered to my dealer. It was a standout next to the other drab earth tones offered that year. 
Remember this was in 1985, computerized ordering and such and I got what I wanted. I'm sure GM was much more  flexible in 69.
I still have my green pickup by the way!
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yep that was how it was done if you worked with a dealer who cared about his customers not just making $$$
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2013, 02:21:33 PM »

Quote
that is why when i ordered the car i specified EO to the dealer because i was familiar with 65 impalas that color.
Quote
you order by the color code number not the color name

So did you order it by the color name or by the paint sample and code in the book?  Paint samples in books do not always look EXACTLY like
they do on a car.  I am not trying to argue, just trying to get the story straight.
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« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2013, 04:36:14 PM »

Quote
that is why when i ordered the car i specified EO to the dealer because i was familiar with 65 impalas that color.
Quote
you order by the color code number not the color name

So did you order it by the color name or by the paint sample and code in the book?  Paint samples in books do not always look EXACTLY like
they do on a car.  I am not trying to argue, just trying to get the story straight.
i picked the color EO from the book and the dealer does the ordering. i know that options are ordered by the code number.
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« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2013, 12:10:11 AM »

Clem,
I completely believe that is how you ordered it and what you ordered.
From people that actually saw the paint, I'm not convinced that what was received.
At this point, I don't think there's any original paint to compare to, so we'll never know. Smiley
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« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2013, 07:28:23 AM »

Clem,
I completely believe that is how you ordered it and what you ordered.
From people that actually saw the paint, I'm not convinced that what was received.
At this point, I don't think there's any original paint to compare to, so we'll never know. Smiley
quote]i knew what EO looked like  because i had seen 1965 chevys that color,that is what i wanted and that is what i received. i know you guys are trying to cover for jerry but he was flat out wrong and he did not see the original paint. why would i pick EO out of thin air to tell the new owner Huh there is no way the dealer could order a car a certain color and GM paint it a different color without notifying the dealer. i hope you guys are not trying to devalue the car just to protect jerry.
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« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2013, 07:49:57 AM »

Clem, I don't think anyone here is trying to devalue the car or protect Jerry, during his inspection Jerry still did confirm this was a numbers matching '69 Z28 and that is great news. We had an opportunity to chat a few weeks ago and I found you to be a very pleasant car guy, you definitely knew your stuff and did not seem like someone who would forget most facts especially the color of this car,  you were very clear in our conversation about the color and how you ordered the car. Wish we could just get away from this paint discussion and focus on a very cool restoration of a '69Z.

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« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2013, 07:59:43 AM »

Clem, I don't think anyone here is trying to devalue the car or protect Jerry, during his inspection Jerry still did confirm this was a numbers matching '69 Z28 and that is great news. We had an opportunity to chat a few weeks ago and I found you to be a very pleasant car guy, you definitely knew your stuff and did not seem like someone who would forget most facts especially the color of this car,  you were very clear in our conversation about the color and how you ordered the car. Wish we could just get away from this paint discussion and focus on a very cool restoration of a '69Z.


i find it very interesting when a special car shows up the experts say that is not posiable. my friend had a 1969 ZL-1 corvette with auto trans and when he decided to come public with the car the experts went nuts saying the car was fake. i worked on the car when it was brand new in 1969 and i knew what a ZL-1 engine was.
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« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2013, 11:13:28 AM »

I'm not covering for anyone. Several people *did* see original paint that was left.
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« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2013, 03:15:37 PM »

I'm not covering for anyone. Several people *did* see original paint that was left.
the people you say saw the original paint most likely never seen EO or they would have recognized the color . the picture of the inside of the door with the panel pull back should be proof enough of the color. you guys can bar me from the site but i think enough people here agree with me now jerry made a mistake plain and simple and he should be man enough to admit it. 
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« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:45 PM »

My first glance I thought it was the orchid color from the pic that Jerry posted along with the yellow and red that is there. Same with the door panel pic, looks like orchid to me. That's a color hard to forget. I was trying to convince myself that is was silver but I don't think so anymore.
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'UNRESTORED' 1969 Cortez Silver X33D80 Z28
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« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2013, 05:06:31 PM »

Our hs football coach had a chevelle that color,  and later a friend had a 65 Impala SS in evening orchid,  we called it "purple", but what did we know?
Never seen it on a Camaro though. I think its not a bad color; kind of unique looking.  My wife is looking over my shoulder
right now..............she likes it!
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« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2013, 05:53:09 PM »

I grew up near a Chevy dealer in the '60s and am familiar with Evening Orchid; I expect Jerry is too. Neither of us saw it during our lengthy examination of this car prior to restoration. I'm sure that was what you ordered; what you got was something else. What we saw was much lighter than EO.

There is no question in my mind this car was not EO when new so there will never be an apology.
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« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2013, 07:06:57 PM »

I grew up near a Chevy dealer in the '60s and am familiar with Evening Orchid; I expect Jerry is too. Neither of us saw it during our lengthy examination of this car prior to restoration. I'm sure that was what you ordered; what you got was something else. What we saw was much lighter than EO.

There is no question in my mind this car was not EO when new so there will never be an apology.
I grew up near a Chevy dealer in the '60s and am familiar with Evening Orchid; I expect Jerry is too. Neither of us saw it during our lengthy examination of this car prior to restoration. I'm sure that was what you ordered; what you got was something else. What we saw was much lighter than EO.

There is no question in my mind this car was not EO when new so there will never be an apology.
there is only 2 guys here who saw the car and says it was not EO but i can produce lot more people who saw this car back in the day and know what color it was. do you believe i am that stupid that i did not know what color i received ?  your opinion is just a opinion and mine is fact.
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« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »

Produce a picture and end the discussion I cannot believe you owned something 40 years with no picture.This thread has gone to long with no outside proof from you. Move on the car is beautiful in any color. Darrell
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« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2013, 09:44:30 PM »

Produce a picture and end the discussion I cannot believe you owned something 40 years with no picture.This thread has gone to long with no outside proof from you. Move on the car is beautiful in any color. Darrell

Pictures have been shown and in my eyes proves his point. Plus the man knows what color he ordered. Some people are to bull headed to admit a mistake.
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« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2013, 10:18:14 PM »

AND..  the bottom line is that it's coded 'special paint', so basically the original color was whatever color the original owner says it was...  Smiley  and if he wants to say it was painted up like a zebra with black and white stripes..    that might be true too.. for all anyone else knows... Smiley
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2013, 11:25:43 PM »

Produce a picture and end the discussion I cannot believe you owned something 40 years with no picture.This thread has gone to long with no outside proof from you. Move on the car is beautiful in any color. Darrell
i never owned a camera back then as i was into cars and engines not pictures. the pictures of me autocrossing the car when it was new were taken by someone else and given to me. i just got a cell phone that takes pictures last week. pictures are way down on my list of things i want. i just bought a used digital camera several year ago from john hinkley.
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« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2013, 02:37:33 AM »

You know,  after reading this thread for awhile now...not that my opinion counts for anything other than myself.  It is a fantastic looking car!  People who have lived with these cars and know them inside out,  they are to be respected.  Then on the other hand,  the original owner, who knows what he ordered and has owned, he is to be respected too.  From my own experience its frustrating to have bought my car when 18 years old,  then someone tells me "that's not original to  your car, or that is wrong."   Mine is a late 69, so I tell myself that is why.    I will say this is amazing site, with wonderful people devoted to an amazing car, and be thankful for that.
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« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2013, 06:56:47 AM »

You know,  after reading this thread for awhile now...not that my opinion counts for anything other than myself.  It is a fantastic looking car!  People who have lived with these cars and know them inside out,  they are to be respected.  Then on the other hand,  the original owner, who knows what he ordered and has owned, he is to be respected too.  From my own experience its frustrating to have bought my car when 18 years old,  then someone tells me "that's not original to  your car, or that is wrong."   Mine is a late 69, so I tell myself that is why.    I will say this is amazing site, with wonderful people devoted to an amazing car, and be thankful for that.
they don't respect you when you are a threat to their making $$$$.
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« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2013, 10:46:38 AM »

Clem I've followed this thread all the way thru. You just struck a nerve. It sounds like you have a problem with somebody other than this site or the CRG. I have never been ask for one damn dime and although I have tried to donate to help keep this site up and running I've always been turned down. Seems you are preaching to the choir my friend. You brought this argument to the wrong place. I couldn't care less if your damn car was Turkey Turd Tan. Get a grip and a life. Go argue with the one you have a beef with. NOT the people that are here to share and learn about one of the greatest muscle cars ever built.  If you have nothing constructive to add get your toys and go home.

Sincerely,
Daniel Wysner

P.S. Respect is earned and never bought. You don't have enough money to have my respect after this little debacle. Reputations are a dime a dozen and can be lost a hell of a lot faster than earned. Be careful of who you step on when your going up cause you might meet them on YOUR way DOWN.
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« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2013, 11:28:14 AM »

Gentlemen, this is going nowhere and becoming personal. Clem, I understand your frustration, but if you have an issue with Jerry or Bill, please take it to them directly. Vendor bashing is not allowed on this site.

In closing, no matter what has been discussed, there's been no documentation either way on what the original color of this car was, so until such proof is produced, I see no reason to continue the bickering back and forth. We've decided to lock this topic, but if documentation can be supplied, we'll open it back up again.

Ed
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 12:05:05 PM by Ed Bertrand » Logged

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