Author Topic: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines  (Read 2926 times)

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1786
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 08:05:58 PM »
Probably my last post in this thread.

I don't think we want to open Pandora's box.

Over and out.

PS - Constructive is my middle name. :)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:56:25 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 08:34:54 PM »
Would like to see input from other CRG members who have thoughtful input on the subject of Judging.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 09:21:10 PM by Edgemontvillage »
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

dutch

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
  • Documented Canadian 1968 Z/28
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 10:30:24 PM »
Personally and since you asked.. I for one don't or wouldn't see it as much of a bonus to the CRG as it sits presently.
After scanning your list of titles or breakdown of supposed points of interest and discussion - I can't honestly see where it would enhance the CRG experience for the vast majority of members from my own experiences of mainly shadowing these forum threads and somewhat knowing the members involved in many (just from their posts) of the discussions and topics.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't possibly a lot of good points that might or could be discussed - but I think it would be catering to a very small segment of the CRG membership in both interest and/or usable information.
Additionally (granted possibly I'm the only one that this might feel this way) I sense the suggested additions to this forum sound like they could be ones where often debates will end up in heated arguments about judging itself or personalities themselves and their preferences or practices - that commonly would end up overshadowing whatever good the addition of the category(s) might bring with it considering the varied methods, reasoning, or preferences certain judges or people in that end of the hobby might have verses just the vehicles themselves (which in the end is what we are mainly all here for and about)..
Again - just my own opinion - since you asked for a polling to start..

uscrichter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 10:44:31 PM »
I am one of many who enjoy the challenge and take pride in taking a 50 year old "wreck " out of the storage and restoring it back to factory new standards and would welcome the vast knowledge of this group has to offer for my current and future restoration projects, I am also a member of the NCRS and have been involved in judging over the years and the mission of the NCRS is to restore a car that appears as delivered at the dealership, since there is very little original paint from 196? left it only makes sense to allow modern paint that is applied to look factory as well as certain repro parts and having judging guidelines sure helps restores from making costly mistakes. The CRG site has been a wealth of information that has saved me from buying the wrong or inferior products and would be exited to see some judging guidelines published for this type of restoration before I invest thousands of dollars in shipping a car to a judging event. I think it would also inspire more people to preserve the beauty that GM intended. P.S.  nothing against resto-mods ! not all Camaros are Z-28's, SS or COPO cars.

68camaroz28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 11:03:47 PM »
How disappointing to read some of the comments and arguments on what Lloyd was trying to convey and recommend.  First off, my main goal while restoring our 68 was not for points but to be correct. That correctness or what was normally observed on certain cars surely has a place on the Camaro Research Group. It's not about a judging sheet but correctness and judging whether some like it or not overlap. I've shared a lot of information both here and on Team Camaro to assist others with my build thread, survivor pictures, etc.. Much of that information sharing hopefully will assist others when working to make their car more correct. How many times have Camaro hobbyist said it would be great to have more information when restoring a car or to have better sources. Just think of our beloved JohnZ and how much information he shared on correctness which in turn is used for restoration which is also used to know what is normally considered correct in judging. It would seem to me the CRG has a limited number of active members and a category of some kind highlighting correctness might add active membership.
Agree 100% with Lloyd but then again I've been there.
One final comment: Judging at MCACN pointed out the wrong battery tray on our car and that information and investigation was shared here and other sites that proved without a doubt original battery trays overwhelmingly had a tab which equated to correctness. That's what its all about, Correctness!
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1786
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 11:23:46 PM »
Chick - we appreciate that you shared your information. Nothing wrong with keeping that trend going - using the same format.

And - Everyone it entitled to an opinion.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 11:46:30 PM »
and I've suggested that CRG (as a group) formulate such a Judging Manual similar to the NCRS judging manuals..
That will not happen. That is a huge undertaking.  Each NCRS 130-page issue takes a 10-man team 2-3 years to create. The Camaro judging manual has been worked on for 20 years - under USCC, ICC, and ACA - and still isn't done.
How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
That's why there are Restoration and Originality sections of the forum.

I'm not seeing a need that has been demonstrated. By that, I mean that I don't see many posts about judging that indicate that there is a need for this new section. And I see posts that could get lost - many have no interest in judging and wouldn't have seen or posted in Chick's thread on battery trays if it was in that forum. If the discussion is what is original, then it should be in Originality. Fine to start the post with: My car was judged and is this right?? Same with how to restore a finish - in Restoration.
That leaves the logistics of judging. Transport, judging rules, etc. I have seen scant interest in those, but may I suggest showing the need. Start new threads about the logistics of judging with LOJ in the title, e.g. Transport to MCACN - LOJ.
Kurt S
CRG

Edgemontvillage

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2017, 12:43:46 AM »
As the originator of this thread I'm pleased the subject has attracted a variety of opinions, some strong.  As a CRG forum participant and contributor who is restoring a 1st Gen Camaro with a view to Judging, I'm at a loss where to find critical information about the process and learn from others who have been through it.  I've never seen a Judging sheet from MCACN or Legends or ? I don't know where to find this information or where to locate advice or engage in dialogue about Judging from those with experience. To the extent this information exists somewhere on the CRG site it's not in an organized form that is easy to access or locate. The search engine route in not effective. If the conclusion is "pick a forum and start a dialogue", that's possible but not nearly as effective or desirable as a destination CRG forum to host the subject.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

69Z28-RS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4428
  • owner since 4-Apr-1976
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 04:22:45 PM »
Lloyd,  I was/am interested in the Judging aspect (from an original unrestored perspective, as well as 'restored' perspective).  Since I'd been away from Camaros for several years, when I re-initiated my Camaro activities, I had some of the same questions as you just expounded.  My approach was to go to the Camaro nationals (which I did for several years), and talk to the owners and judges in the classes of interest.  One participant actually offered to send me a copy of his judged sheet after he received it so I'd have a little more knowledge about the process.  I really enjoyed going to these Nationals and seeing what went on, talking to owners, and *learning* more about the cars and the owners restoration activities as well as the process itself.  I strongly recommend that approach, as I don't think 'reading in a forum' is anywhere close to actually viewing it realtime. 

The Camaro Nationals has been held in Fredericksburg, MD for the last few years and occurs in mid-June.  Steve Shauger has also sponsored a judging of Camaros in Carlisle at/around the same time (and those cities are pretty close together)..
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Edgemontvillage

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2017, 05:30:24 PM »
Gary, good insight, thanks.  Attending the Camaro Nationals has been on my list for a long time. For those who have the available time and resources there is no substitute for being there and taking it all in. I hope that you and others who have had the privilege will share your experience with other CRG members who haven't. Your perspective and take-aways are valuable.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

68camaroz28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2017, 07:31:52 PM »
Lloyd,  I was/am interested in the Judging aspect (from an original unrestored perspective, as well as 'restored' perspective).  Since I'd been away from Camaros for several years, when I re-initiated my Camaro activities, I had some of the same questions as you just expounded.  My approach was to go to the Camaro nationals (which I did for several years), and talk to the owners and judges in the classes of interest.  One participant actually offered to send me a copy of his judged sheet after he received it so I'd have a little more knowledge about the process.  I really enjoyed going to these Nationals and seeing what went on, talking to owners, and *learning* more about the cars and the owners restoration activities as well as the process itself.  I strongly recommend that approach, as I don't think 'reading in a forum' is anywhere close to actually viewing it realtime. 

The Camaro Nationals has been held in Fredericksburg, MD for the last few years and occurs in mid-June.  Steve Shauger has also sponsored a judging of Camaros in Carlisle at/around the same time (and those cities are pretty close together)..
The show is always the 4th weekend of the month so this year it's June 23 & 24 for the Camaro Nationals. I'll see you there as our car will be there for Legends Judging.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

ZLP955

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1248
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2017, 06:43:51 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Tim - 04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP

68camaroz28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2017, 11:17:54 PM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Tim that is kind of the point as many of us would hope that at some point there would be some general judging guide, but more importantly I think its more of a standardized correct guide with emphasis on what is normally considered correct which could be used by individuals restoring, checking what they have, or just making what we have better concerning correctness.
Hey its all good and I continue to learn and have fun doing the 68Z.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

Sauron327

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2017, 12:41:54 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Good point. I have seen many over-restored cars that do not represent historical accuracy regarding body and paint. These cars never originally had flawless paint or panel alignment, yet many who restore them for "accuracy" fail in this regard. Over-restored cars have perfectly wet rocker bottoms, full coverage on inner fender braces, no overspray on floorpans or under the hood, and Ridler award gaps. If one wants correctness it should apply to all aspects of an assembly line car.

68camaroz28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1628
    • View Profile
Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Good point. I have seen many over-restored cars that do not represent historical accuracy regarding body and paint. These cars never originally had flawless paint or panel alignment, yet many who restore them for "accuracy" fail in this regard. Over-restored cars have perfectly wet rocker bottoms, full coverage on inner fender braces, no overspray on floorpans or under the hood, and Ridler award gaps. If one wants correctness it should apply to all aspects of an assembly line car.
Well I know I failed in paint and gaps and know a whole bunch of others that have as well. Does that mean the car has to be painted in Lacquer to meet "all aspects?" Your points go to an area of restoration that few would ever go to and personally I've not noted one completed that way but you are correct.  :)
NCRS deducts points for paint being overdone, or door jams shiny or show chrome, etc., but even Corvettes are over restored compared to "all aspects of an assembly line car." The correctness I referred to was not about gaps but about a wrong service replacement part, what the original part should look like, correct hardware, etc., etc.. Not that long ago Tim was asking about information and we obtained quite a bit from my 67 & 68 NCRS judging manual. It even comes in handy for other GM makes.
Personally I will continue and use originality as Kurt suggested but it would be beneficial if more people with knowledge would assist with information.
Over and out on this one and time to get a car out and enjoy spring. 
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584