Author Topic: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines  (Read 2927 times)

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2017, 02:58:31 PM »
There is no basis for charging a fee to CRG members to access a specific forum to dialogue, contribute and learn about judging. Many CRG members do chose to go through the judging process and restore their Gen 1 Camaros with that goal in mind. For a variety of their own reasons, beit personal satisfaction, acknowledgement and validation of their their restoration efforts and passion, or something else, let those members and many new members a judging forum could attract, the opportunity to make the CRG site more complete and more inclusive. Those  conversations need an organized platform and CRG is the best, let's keep it that way and not lose the dialogue to another venue. 
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2017, 03:29:26 PM »
I agree. I would like to see more members, and even more traffic on the CRG. I would think a sub area for discussion and knowledge on shows would be helpful to those seeking it. For example if someone attended a Camaro nationals show and got a deduction for a certain area, there may be others in the know that could explain it. Or if someone was planning on going to a judged event (there could be a dedicated thread for each major show) he could look up others experiences, or see what members have chimed in about attending and maybe pick there brain about what they thought of the event.
I also think comparing and contrasting what a judge may perceive or recommend at a show vs. contradicting info from well known sources would prompt more discussion and may, in the end, promote clear conclusions and more agreement across the judging spectrum. I could see there being a disparity from a judge on the west coast vs a judge on the east coast based on the cars they have come into contact with, seeing more cars made at one plant vs. another.
Also super cars: IS there a judging class for these cars?
for instance a Dana car seen/judged at a cars how on the west coast vs. a Baldwin car on the east coast. A discussion on how those cars would be judged and what parameters or what is considered day 2 for those cars. While obviously not factory correct, these cars I think are a neat part of Camaro history, and I have not seen a great thread comparing what each of those dealers provided or offered and how many cars were made?
I guess to sum it up, I think another category like this could bring about new discussions by new people. While I may not get into the weeds on judging and shows, I still think it is interesting to a certain degree.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2017, 04:36:54 PM »
....
Life is short. The most important things in life aren't "things".
...

This is a part of the post that none of us would disagree with..  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2017, 04:38:33 PM »
How about this...   Use the Garage Talk section..
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2017, 04:41:25 PM »
sure you could do that. But logically it seems it would be cleaner to have a sub forum just for judging. Just a catch all for just judging questions and that kind of stuff. Hey maybe it wouldn't even see that much traffic, but I think its worth a shot.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 04:47:22 PM »
How about this...   Use the Garage Talk section..

Garage Talk is not the appropriate label or forum destination for discussion on Judging. That forum  is not a place anyone would intuitively think to visit for a discussion on the subject of technical judging and it already has a developed profile and following of its own. Judging is not a trivial subject, it is not a sideshow, it deserves a dedicated forum of its own for those who are interested.

Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2017, 04:48:00 PM »
I agree. I would like to see more members, and even more traffic on the CRG. I would think a sub area for discussion and knowledge on shows would be helpful to those seeking it. For example if someone attended a Camaro nationals show and got a deduction for a certain area, there may be others in the know that could explain it. Or if someone was planning on going to a judged event (there could be a dedicated thread for each major show) he could look up others experiences, or see what members have chimed in about attending and maybe pick there brain about what they thought of the event.
I also think comparing and contrasting what a judge may perceive or recommend at a show vs. contradicting info from well known sources would prompt more discussion and may, in the end, promote clear conclusions and more agreement across the judging spectrum. I could see there being a disparity from a judge on the west coast vs a judge on the east coast based on the cars they have come into contact with, seeing more cars made at one plant vs. another.
Also super cars: IS there a judging class for these cars?
for instance a Dana car seen/judged at a cars how on the west coast vs. a Baldwin car on the east coast. A discussion on how those cars would be judged and what parameters or what is considered day 2 for those cars. While obviously not factory correct, these cars I think are a neat part of Camaro history, and I have not seen a great thread comparing what each of those dealers provided or offered and how many cars were made?
I guess to sum it up, I think another category like this could bring about new discussions by new people. While I may not get into the weeds on judging and shows, I still think it is interesting to a certain degree.

There is nothing to prevent those kinds of discussions now, Austin..   in fact, we DO have such discussions when someone raises a topic (generally after attending a Nationals event).. :)   

I see 'actual factory originality' as the mission of this group, and I believe that's the way it should be.  If one wants to build/restore/preserve his car to factory originality, then the 'Original' section here is the best place to get the information.  The biggest 'issue' with that now is that there is no 'organization to it, and finding threads in the topic area you are interested can be difficult to find.

To me, specific deviation of a particular organization's judging determinations - from actual factory originality, are worth no more than a note in this group.  If enough people *care*, then they can/should get a change in that organization's guidelines.  I've judged original restored (and unrestored) classes in the old NNC, the NCRS, and the CCCI, and in my opinion the 'original' determination boils down to the individual judges opinion and that is why most organizations average the scores from 3 judges.  Part of the reason for those judges having different opinions are the discrepancies in the factorys themselves...  :)

PS.  One problem with having a 'separate category' for JUDGING, is that some people would begin to associate how an organization 'judges' a part or category as 'ORIGINAL' (such as with the Camaro Association's allowing full points for base/clear urethane paint).  We need to remember what the CRG basis is... ie. factory production originality...  NOT some organization's understanding or allowance for points.   AND.. there are a number of organizations and probably they all judge differently.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2017, 05:00:06 PM »
Garage Talk is not the appropriate label or forum destination for discussion on Judging. That forum  is not a place anyone would intuitively think to visit for a discussion on the subject of technical judging and it already has a developed profile and following of its own. Judging is not a trivial subject, it is not a sideshow, it deserves a dedicated forum of its own for those who are interested.




Ok then Originality like Gary mentioned..  Regardless good luck with that..  I hope you get it. 
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

dutch

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2017, 05:19:32 PM »
Just a question - but wouldn't a forum or 'discussion grouping' where often possibly even the most minute and often quirky details of Camaro model construction or assembly norms or odd practices from different plants or suppliers - possibly assist those who may tend to want to fake or misrepresent a model or clone, when they might not be privy to such details normally?
I'm thinking of things that could surely and normally tip off an expert judge or someone like a MacNeish who may one of a very few that could detect whether a vehicle was or had been cloned or not..
Not that it necessarily would - but couldn't it possibly open up more details to those who wouldn't normally be aware of such things - effectively allowing them to become more proficient at passing off illegitimate cars?
I know even on the site there often is a reluctance of those who read block and vin stampings to offer more than just a Yay or Nay when it comes to responding to an inquiry, mainly and obviously because the thinking is that the more info given the more it just helps those who don't have good intentions in mind..
In a World where I'm sure everyone agrees it is getting harder and harder to detect real cars from fakes (Corvette World perfect case in point) and where often now good re-stamps are being in many judging categories deemed as acceptable - might this be the one of the first steps in helping Camaro models follow suit and go down a road many wish it shouldn't..? - Just say'n or ask'n..     
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 06:15:16 PM by dutch »

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 05:22:39 PM »
dutch,

Yes that is one potential issue. One of many.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2017, 05:24:59 PM »
There is a misconception that Judging is synonymous with Orginality - it is not. Originality is an important aspect of judging and so is much of the dialogue taking place in the CRG Restoration forum however the subject of Judging is further reaching:
- preparation
- transportation 
- acceptable NOS and restoration parts for judging
- acceptable finishes for judging
- Judging experience - what to do and what you need to know
- the Judging process and how they compare by level and venue
- Judging protocols and decorum
- Judging sheets, point values, deductions and bonuses
- the appeal process
- CRG member debriefs

These are many of the subjects relating specially to Judging that don't have a natural fit in the Orginality forum nor in any other CRG forum at present.

Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2017, 05:53:44 PM »
With having to worry about all that how or when do you get the chance to get out and drive & experience the car..?..  lol  Im kidding..

Seriously though it sounds like maybe that should have its own message forum with that much content.  You could section the forum with sub sections that you have listed above.
Darrell Cook

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69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 07:39:31 PM »
There is a misconception that Judging is synonymous with Orginality - it is not. Originality is an important aspect of judging and so is much of the dialogue taking place in the CRG Restoration forum however the subject of Judging is further reaching:
- preparation
- transportation 
- acceptable NOS and restoration parts for judging
- acceptable finishes for judging
- Judging experience - what to do and what you need to know
- the Judging process and how they compare by level and venue
- Judging protocols and decorum
- Judging sheets, point values, deductions and bonuses
- the appeal process
- CRG member debriefs

These are many of the subjects relating specially to Judging that don't have a natural fit in the Orginality forum nor in any other CRG forum at present.

To get that 'deep'... maybe it needs a website of it's own....   :)  (Someone had to start CRG and Team Camaro.... you could start a 'Team Restoration'... :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 07:41:41 PM »
Seriously though it sounds like maybe that should have its own message forum with that much content.  You could section the forum with sub sections that you have listed above.

To get that 'deep'... maybe it needs a website of it's own....   :)  (Someone had to start CRG and Team Camaro.... you could start a 'Team Restoration'... :)


 ???
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 07:51:38 PM »
Introducing more fragmentation in our hobby is counter initiative and counter-productive, there is clearly much potential content to talk about, learn and share about Judging. A few short years ago "survivors" were a side-bar and given little mainstream attention. If the same thinking were applied to survivors maybe CRG wouldn't have added a Preservation forum and those many interested CRG members would congregate elsewhere, on another forum. That would be a shame and a loss. I think we can and should embrace the expanding interests of CRG members rather than send them
elsewhere. That's just not progressive thinking.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)