Author Topic: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines  (Read 2935 times)

Edgemontvillage

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For those of us interested in Bow Tie Class , Legends Concours Class or MCACN and other technical judged events, there is currently no CRG discussion group / forum dedicated to the process of planning, preparation or the general discussion of this important subject. Those CRG members who have been through the judging process will often "debrief" their experience in one or another discussion group / forum however its a hit or miss where the discussion will occur. The current discussion group on Originality is very good and sometimes serves as a proxy for this subject area (case in point, a CRG member who received a deduction for an incorrect battery tray during MCACN judging in November 16 posted a thread on the subject that attracted 41 Replies and 1866 Views) however sometimes what is born-with or NOS correct/original and what is acceptable for judged are different (paint finishes for example). For those of us who are interested in the judging process and would like to learn and share information I'd like to see a new, dedicated CRG discussion group / forum on this subject. Thoughts?
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 04:15:12 PM »
I agree that it would be great a single space to address originality/judging.   Right now under the 'Original' group, there is a huge number of threads (old and new) without organization of any type (that I'm aware of).  One alternative might be to USE the Originality Grouping and expand it to address the various areas of the car... ie.   Original-Drivetrain, Original-Interior, Original-Exterior... for which different 'threads' could address specific issues under those sub-groups.  For each specific area, I think a "Note" which provides a 'judging-qualified' comment against each issue.  For example, Originality-Exterior could address 'original factory paint', but a qualifying comment might be: ..."American Camaro Club concours judging *allows* base/clear paint without deduction although clearly base/clear was NOT used in the factory."

My reasoning for the above is so that we don't 'lose' what is actually 'factory original' by addressing what a specific Camaro Club might 'allow' without deduction... over time, it might begin to look like that deviation was indeed 'factory original'...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 04:27:27 PM »
Good observations Gary, the Originality discussion group is very valuable and a terrific platform for discussing related topics. I'm not sure it can be sub-divided for conversations on judging. Recognizing, as you stated, what's acceptable for judging (such has finishes) however a variety of other judging specific topics such as preparation, transportation, the judging process, judging sheets, scores / weighting etc. This is an area where NCRS excels (I'm also a member) and despite a unique and wealth of knowledge available here there is nothing devoted to judging.   
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 04:59:22 PM »
I agree Edgemont...  and I've suggested that CRG (as a group) formulate such a Judging Manual similar to the NCRS judging manuals.. (that could be an ongoing development over time).   The essential point  that I was attempting to make in my first response to your post was to suggest that it be built around 'factory originality' with 'qualifiers' for the issues *allowed* by judging organizations.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 05:42:00 PM »
I am going to respond to this, after I think about it more.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:35:40 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 01:35:14 AM »
OK, took some time to think about it. My words here are mine only.

The CRG long-term goal is to be able to describe the production configuration of every major first-generation Camaro model and option, including mid-year changes.

BUT - I DON'T think it is up to the CRG to tell people how to get more points at a judged event.

Personally, I enjoy either non-restored or nice driver quality cars.  I don't THINK (but never say never) I will ever own "points car" or a "trailer queen".  Now I am NOT using those terms in a negative way, just using them to specify what cars I am talking about.  I have no negative thoughts about you or your car if that is the route you choose to take.

My father and I take our Camaros to a few shows, the cars are driven there and back.  And my son now has a 67 Camaro that we are going to restore in the next few years.  But it will be a driver, with some mods - not a true 100 percent perfect off the showroom floor type restoration. The cost of some NOS parts or very nice originals has gotten WAY out of hand in my opinion - and that has taken a lot of the fun out of it for some people.

Again, for those that choose to have their cars judged, I have no negative thoughts.  It is just not for me.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 06:59:54 AM »
I think it is a great idea to have a separate category regarding what is judged by each show, and how they have arrived at accepting certain things, and how cars originally came. How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
I think another thing that I just noticed isn't really addressed much is Norwood cars vs LA cars.
I am sure the sample size of LA cars is much smaller, but I think theres still much to learn about the differences, and then judging them.
I think most guys on here have norwood cars, so they in turn get the most discussion though.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 11:36:37 AM »
I have to agree with Bryon.  CRG (in my eyes) is not for how to make your car correct for judges.  In the end unless CRG are the judges in these shows then its only a particular group of people's opinion on what they feel is correct.  Lets not forget that CRG is the Camaro Research Group.  If a group of judges want to use CRG info and data then that is their decision.  Im more interested in how the cars came from the factory including all the anomalies vs what someone thinks how many points should be taken off for not having the correct washer or bolt head marking.  Cars shows are great and I have participated in several but not to the level of what is being discussed so I do not see the interest as its not for me.  Maybe a group of guys can start their own website dedicated to showing and judging.?.  I believe that was one of the comments received when someone suggested we have a drag racing section for historical purposes of the 1st gen Camaros..   
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 02:17:03 PM »
I think it is a great idea to have a separate category regarding what is judged by each show, and how they have arrived at accepting certain things, and how cars originally came. How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
I think another thing that I just noticed isn't really addressed much is Norwood cars vs LA cars.
I am sure the sample size of LA cars is much smaller, but I think theres still much to learn about the differences, and then judging them.
I think most guys on here have norwood cars, so they in turn get the most discussion though.

Austin, so NOW you have opportunity to initiate such a discussion and keep it going..  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 03:54:06 PM »
I have to agree with Bryon.  CRG (in my eyes) is not for how to make your car correct for judges.  In the end unless CRG are the judges in these shows then its only a particular group of people's opinion on what they feel is correct.  Lets not forget that CRG is the Camaro Research Group.  If a group of judges want to use CRG info and data then that is their decision.  Im more interested in how the cars came from the factory including all the anomalies vs what someone thinks how many points should be taken off for not having the correct washer or bolt head marking.  Cars shows are great and I have participated in several but not to the level of what is being discussed so I do not see the interest as its not for me.  Maybe a group of guys can start their own website dedicated to showing and judging.?.  I believe that was one of the comments received when someone suggested we have a drag racing section for historical purposes of the 1st gen Camaros..   
I see where you are coming from Darrell. I would point out out that the CRG does have a section for Mild Modifications and now Garage Talk. I know Garage Talk came about because there were topics that could be put into a catch all category like that.  Mild Modifications was on here before I became a member, but I also think it has good reason to be here, and help guys out. So while I am very similar to you in the fact that I will never own a trailer queen or be desperate for a 1000 points at the Camaro nationals or MCACN, I try to follow the hobby very closely, and I would love to have insight from CRG members in the know, and learn about this side of the hobby.
I also think this type attention to what may be correct on a car may lead to some interesting discussions and possibly as guys compare what judges have found lead to new conclusions of how the cars were put together.  I know Gary and I have found a handful of things that changed (parts and practices)with he 69Z during the year. But because these have not been "discovered" by judges, that they are not considered original. If more of these came to light, (research) it would benefit our originality goals here.
Another reason I like the idea, is I think it may also get more 1st Gen Camaro owners to visit the CRG site, and bring their cars history into the fold. Ex: somebody does a search on google for MCACN judging, and in addition to the MCACN site (thank you Steve), they find a few threads on the CRG where discussion has taken place, and they have something to add so they join , and in turn join in the discussions. I think we all get excited when a new member joins and has pics of his car, this would be yet another avenue to make that happen. All of us get pumped when we see a car similar to ours, and get to compare notes, or like you Darrell add to a spread sheet.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 05:56:24 PM »
Judges change and every event is different. The amount of effort needed to keep everything current would NOT be minor. Unfortunately I don't think we can cater to everyone.

If you THINK you have found differences, post them in the originality section for discussion. Seeing something on just a few cars doesn't mean it's factory original.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2017, 12:12:15 AM »
The CRG tag line is "Primary Research and Restoration Data for First-Generation Camaros". Restoration is a key aim of the CRG and judging its highest form. Although we don't aspire to mimic NCRS, their judging programs are the hobby benchmark (no pun intended) and serve to guide and raise the bar for all Corvette restorations. In fact a Top Flight award adds value and is widely viewed as validation of a correct restoration (there are of course other NCRS judging categories for non-restored Corvettes too). Not all areas of our hobby are  right for everyone, there are those who enjoy Day2 cars, survivors and daily drivers. For those of us who want to pursue technical judging this is a unique opportunity to create a platform for those discussions.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 03:30:54 AM »
Well put Lloyd.


I always encourage members to post new findings, to add to the data base, but I let them know the information exchange is mostly a way street, and conflicting info is not necessarily welcomed. I would stand by my original statement that a prominent Judge would have to make the observation, or "discovery" for a revelation to take place.
 Life goes on, no biggie.... ;D
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 01:01:02 PM »
I would point out out that the CRG does have a section for Mild Modifications and now Garage Talk. I know Garage Talk came about because there were topics that could be put into a catch all category like that.  Mild Modifications was on here before I became a member, but I also think it has good reason to be here, and help guys out.

I personally can not control what sub sections are here.  With that said I couldn't care less if the Mild Mod section went away.  If I want to know about modifications; CRG is not the forum I frequent when doing said searches.  I use TC, YB or sYc.  To me that is not what this forum is about.  As for the Garage Talk; I am torn.  I use it because like many here, I have become friends with many here and like to share what I am doing or working on that doesn't really pertain to the research aspect of things but are Camaro related.  I have also resorted to keeping my own Drag Racing thread (even though I (and several others) still feel it was just as important to the Camaro history as SCCA but that is another subject for another time) in the same section.  So I see where Lloyd and others are coming from on the judging section but in my eyes until CRG core members as a group decide to start having a show that would encompass the outlined info gathered by researching etc then it would create more potential unnecessary arguments between CRG and judges than resolve a point deduction or addition.  Now if CRG wanted to put on a show similar to what I am describing then I could see the need for the sub section.  But you would have to get more than just one or two core members to do this as it takes several to review a vehicle.  As for how the info is configured that is another subject all in itself.

Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 01:49:47 PM »
NCRS has an annual fee. CRG is free.

There are people out there that will inspect your car, FOR A FEE. 

You can also go have your car judged at an event, see what they think is wrong - and then fix the issues.

I would like to avoid cases of multiple knowledgeable opinions being given on a component and then that result is not accepted as fact.

Life is short. The most important things in life aren't "things".
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016