Author Topic: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines  (Read 2937 times)

Edgemontvillage

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For those of us interested in Bow Tie Class , Legends Concours Class or MCACN and other technical judged events, there is currently no CRG discussion group / forum dedicated to the process of planning, preparation or the general discussion of this important subject. Those CRG members who have been through the judging process will often "debrief" their experience in one or another discussion group / forum however its a hit or miss where the discussion will occur. The current discussion group on Originality is very good and sometimes serves as a proxy for this subject area (case in point, a CRG member who received a deduction for an incorrect battery tray during MCACN judging in November 16 posted a thread on the subject that attracted 41 Replies and 1866 Views) however sometimes what is born-with or NOS correct/original and what is acceptable for judged are different (paint finishes for example). For those of us who are interested in the judging process and would like to learn and share information I'd like to see a new, dedicated CRG discussion group / forum on this subject. Thoughts?
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 04:15:12 PM »
I agree that it would be great a single space to address originality/judging.   Right now under the 'Original' group, there is a huge number of threads (old and new) without organization of any type (that I'm aware of).  One alternative might be to USE the Originality Grouping and expand it to address the various areas of the car... ie.   Original-Drivetrain, Original-Interior, Original-Exterior... for which different 'threads' could address specific issues under those sub-groups.  For each specific area, I think a "Note" which provides a 'judging-qualified' comment against each issue.  For example, Originality-Exterior could address 'original factory paint', but a qualifying comment might be: ..."American Camaro Club concours judging *allows* base/clear paint without deduction although clearly base/clear was NOT used in the factory."

My reasoning for the above is so that we don't 'lose' what is actually 'factory original' by addressing what a specific Camaro Club might 'allow' without deduction... over time, it might begin to look like that deviation was indeed 'factory original'...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 04:27:27 PM »
Good observations Gary, the Originality discussion group is very valuable and a terrific platform for discussing related topics. I'm not sure it can be sub-divided for conversations on judging. Recognizing, as you stated, what's acceptable for judging (such has finishes) however a variety of other judging specific topics such as preparation, transportation, the judging process, judging sheets, scores / weighting etc. This is an area where NCRS excels (I'm also a member) and despite a unique and wealth of knowledge available here there is nothing devoted to judging.   
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 04:59:22 PM »
I agree Edgemont...  and I've suggested that CRG (as a group) formulate such a Judging Manual similar to the NCRS judging manuals.. (that could be an ongoing development over time).   The essential point  that I was attempting to make in my first response to your post was to suggest that it be built around 'factory originality' with 'qualifiers' for the issues *allowed* by judging organizations.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 05:42:00 PM »
I am going to respond to this, after I think about it more.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:35:40 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 01:35:14 AM »
OK, took some time to think about it. My words here are mine only.

The CRG long-term goal is to be able to describe the production configuration of every major first-generation Camaro model and option, including mid-year changes.

BUT - I DON'T think it is up to the CRG to tell people how to get more points at a judged event.

Personally, I enjoy either non-restored or nice driver quality cars.  I don't THINK (but never say never) I will ever own "points car" or a "trailer queen".  Now I am NOT using those terms in a negative way, just using them to specify what cars I am talking about.  I have no negative thoughts about you or your car if that is the route you choose to take.

My father and I take our Camaros to a few shows, the cars are driven there and back.  And my son now has a 67 Camaro that we are going to restore in the next few years.  But it will be a driver, with some mods - not a true 100 percent perfect off the showroom floor type restoration. The cost of some NOS parts or very nice originals has gotten WAY out of hand in my opinion - and that has taken a lot of the fun out of it for some people.

Again, for those that choose to have their cars judged, I have no negative thoughts.  It is just not for me.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 06:59:54 AM »
I think it is a great idea to have a separate category regarding what is judged by each show, and how they have arrived at accepting certain things, and how cars originally came. How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
I think another thing that I just noticed isn't really addressed much is Norwood cars vs LA cars.
I am sure the sample size of LA cars is much smaller, but I think theres still much to learn about the differences, and then judging them.
I think most guys on here have norwood cars, so they in turn get the most discussion though.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 11:36:37 AM »
I have to agree with Bryon.  CRG (in my eyes) is not for how to make your car correct for judges.  In the end unless CRG are the judges in these shows then its only a particular group of people's opinion on what they feel is correct.  Lets not forget that CRG is the Camaro Research Group.  If a group of judges want to use CRG info and data then that is their decision.  Im more interested in how the cars came from the factory including all the anomalies vs what someone thinks how many points should be taken off for not having the correct washer or bolt head marking.  Cars shows are great and I have participated in several but not to the level of what is being discussed so I do not see the interest as its not for me.  Maybe a group of guys can start their own website dedicated to showing and judging.?.  I believe that was one of the comments received when someone suggested we have a drag racing section for historical purposes of the 1st gen Camaros..   
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 02:17:03 PM »
I think it is a great idea to have a separate category regarding what is judged by each show, and how they have arrived at accepting certain things, and how cars originally came. How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
I think another thing that I just noticed isn't really addressed much is Norwood cars vs LA cars.
I am sure the sample size of LA cars is much smaller, but I think theres still much to learn about the differences, and then judging them.
I think most guys on here have norwood cars, so they in turn get the most discussion though.

Austin, so NOW you have opportunity to initiate such a discussion and keep it going..  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 03:54:06 PM »
I have to agree with Bryon.  CRG (in my eyes) is not for how to make your car correct for judges.  In the end unless CRG are the judges in these shows then its only a particular group of people's opinion on what they feel is correct.  Lets not forget that CRG is the Camaro Research Group.  If a group of judges want to use CRG info and data then that is their decision.  Im more interested in how the cars came from the factory including all the anomalies vs what someone thinks how many points should be taken off for not having the correct washer or bolt head marking.  Cars shows are great and I have participated in several but not to the level of what is being discussed so I do not see the interest as its not for me.  Maybe a group of guys can start their own website dedicated to showing and judging.?.  I believe that was one of the comments received when someone suggested we have a drag racing section for historical purposes of the 1st gen Camaros..   
I see where you are coming from Darrell. I would point out out that the CRG does have a section for Mild Modifications and now Garage Talk. I know Garage Talk came about because there were topics that could be put into a catch all category like that.  Mild Modifications was on here before I became a member, but I also think it has good reason to be here, and help guys out. So while I am very similar to you in the fact that I will never own a trailer queen or be desperate for a 1000 points at the Camaro nationals or MCACN, I try to follow the hobby very closely, and I would love to have insight from CRG members in the know, and learn about this side of the hobby.
I also think this type attention to what may be correct on a car may lead to some interesting discussions and possibly as guys compare what judges have found lead to new conclusions of how the cars were put together.  I know Gary and I have found a handful of things that changed (parts and practices)with he 69Z during the year. But because these have not been "discovered" by judges, that they are not considered original. If more of these came to light, (research) it would benefit our originality goals here.
Another reason I like the idea, is I think it may also get more 1st Gen Camaro owners to visit the CRG site, and bring their cars history into the fold. Ex: somebody does a search on google for MCACN judging, and in addition to the MCACN site (thank you Steve), they find a few threads on the CRG where discussion has taken place, and they have something to add so they join , and in turn join in the discussions. I think we all get excited when a new member joins and has pics of his car, this would be yet another avenue to make that happen. All of us get pumped when we see a car similar to ours, and get to compare notes, or like you Darrell add to a spread sheet.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 05:56:24 PM »
Judges change and every event is different. The amount of effort needed to keep everything current would NOT be minor. Unfortunately I don't think we can cater to everyone.

If you THINK you have found differences, post them in the originality section for discussion. Seeing something on just a few cars doesn't mean it's factory original.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2017, 12:12:15 AM »
The CRG tag line is "Primary Research and Restoration Data for First-Generation Camaros". Restoration is a key aim of the CRG and judging its highest form. Although we don't aspire to mimic NCRS, their judging programs are the hobby benchmark (no pun intended) and serve to guide and raise the bar for all Corvette restorations. In fact a Top Flight award adds value and is widely viewed as validation of a correct restoration (there are of course other NCRS judging categories for non-restored Corvettes too). Not all areas of our hobby are  right for everyone, there are those who enjoy Day2 cars, survivors and daily drivers. For those of us who want to pursue technical judging this is a unique opportunity to create a platform for those discussions.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2017, 03:30:54 AM »
Well put Lloyd.


I always encourage members to post new findings, to add to the data base, but I let them know the information exchange is mostly a way street, and conflicting info is not necessarily welcomed. I would stand by my original statement that a prominent Judge would have to make the observation, or "discovery" for a revelation to take place.
 Life goes on, no biggie.... ;D
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 01:01:02 PM »
I would point out out that the CRG does have a section for Mild Modifications and now Garage Talk. I know Garage Talk came about because there were topics that could be put into a catch all category like that.  Mild Modifications was on here before I became a member, but I also think it has good reason to be here, and help guys out.

I personally can not control what sub sections are here.  With that said I couldn't care less if the Mild Mod section went away.  If I want to know about modifications; CRG is not the forum I frequent when doing said searches.  I use TC, YB or sYc.  To me that is not what this forum is about.  As for the Garage Talk; I am torn.  I use it because like many here, I have become friends with many here and like to share what I am doing or working on that doesn't really pertain to the research aspect of things but are Camaro related.  I have also resorted to keeping my own Drag Racing thread (even though I (and several others) still feel it was just as important to the Camaro history as SCCA but that is another subject for another time) in the same section.  So I see where Lloyd and others are coming from on the judging section but in my eyes until CRG core members as a group decide to start having a show that would encompass the outlined info gathered by researching etc then it would create more potential unnecessary arguments between CRG and judges than resolve a point deduction or addition.  Now if CRG wanted to put on a show similar to what I am describing then I could see the need for the sub section.  But you would have to get more than just one or two core members to do this as it takes several to review a vehicle.  As for how the info is configured that is another subject all in itself.

Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 01:49:47 PM »
NCRS has an annual fee. CRG is free.

There are people out there that will inspect your car, FOR A FEE. 

You can also go have your car judged at an event, see what they think is wrong - and then fix the issues.

I would like to avoid cases of multiple knowledgeable opinions being given on a component and then that result is not accepted as fact.

Life is short. The most important things in life aren't "things".
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2017, 02:58:31 PM »
There is no basis for charging a fee to CRG members to access a specific forum to dialogue, contribute and learn about judging. Many CRG members do chose to go through the judging process and restore their Gen 1 Camaros with that goal in mind. For a variety of their own reasons, beit personal satisfaction, acknowledgement and validation of their their restoration efforts and passion, or something else, let those members and many new members a judging forum could attract, the opportunity to make the CRG site more complete and more inclusive. Those  conversations need an organized platform and CRG is the best, let's keep it that way and not lose the dialogue to another venue. 
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2017, 03:29:26 PM »
I agree. I would like to see more members, and even more traffic on the CRG. I would think a sub area for discussion and knowledge on shows would be helpful to those seeking it. For example if someone attended a Camaro nationals show and got a deduction for a certain area, there may be others in the know that could explain it. Or if someone was planning on going to a judged event (there could be a dedicated thread for each major show) he could look up others experiences, or see what members have chimed in about attending and maybe pick there brain about what they thought of the event.
I also think comparing and contrasting what a judge may perceive or recommend at a show vs. contradicting info from well known sources would prompt more discussion and may, in the end, promote clear conclusions and more agreement across the judging spectrum. I could see there being a disparity from a judge on the west coast vs a judge on the east coast based on the cars they have come into contact with, seeing more cars made at one plant vs. another.
Also super cars: IS there a judging class for these cars?
for instance a Dana car seen/judged at a cars how on the west coast vs. a Baldwin car on the east coast. A discussion on how those cars would be judged and what parameters or what is considered day 2 for those cars. While obviously not factory correct, these cars I think are a neat part of Camaro history, and I have not seen a great thread comparing what each of those dealers provided or offered and how many cars were made?
I guess to sum it up, I think another category like this could bring about new discussions by new people. While I may not get into the weeds on judging and shows, I still think it is interesting to a certain degree.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69Z28-RS

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2017, 04:36:54 PM »
....
Life is short. The most important things in life aren't "things".
...

This is a part of the post that none of us would disagree with..  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2017, 04:38:33 PM »
How about this...   Use the Garage Talk section..
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

BULLITT65

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2017, 04:41:25 PM »
sure you could do that. But logically it seems it would be cleaner to have a sub forum just for judging. Just a catch all for just judging questions and that kind of stuff. Hey maybe it wouldn't even see that much traffic, but I think its worth a shot.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 04:47:22 PM »
How about this...   Use the Garage Talk section..

Garage Talk is not the appropriate label or forum destination for discussion on Judging. That forum  is not a place anyone would intuitively think to visit for a discussion on the subject of technical judging and it already has a developed profile and following of its own. Judging is not a trivial subject, it is not a sideshow, it deserves a dedicated forum of its own for those who are interested.

Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2017, 04:48:00 PM »
I agree. I would like to see more members, and even more traffic on the CRG. I would think a sub area for discussion and knowledge on shows would be helpful to those seeking it. For example if someone attended a Camaro nationals show and got a deduction for a certain area, there may be others in the know that could explain it. Or if someone was planning on going to a judged event (there could be a dedicated thread for each major show) he could look up others experiences, or see what members have chimed in about attending and maybe pick there brain about what they thought of the event.
I also think comparing and contrasting what a judge may perceive or recommend at a show vs. contradicting info from well known sources would prompt more discussion and may, in the end, promote clear conclusions and more agreement across the judging spectrum. I could see there being a disparity from a judge on the west coast vs a judge on the east coast based on the cars they have come into contact with, seeing more cars made at one plant vs. another.
Also super cars: IS there a judging class for these cars?
for instance a Dana car seen/judged at a cars how on the west coast vs. a Baldwin car on the east coast. A discussion on how those cars would be judged and what parameters or what is considered day 2 for those cars. While obviously not factory correct, these cars I think are a neat part of Camaro history, and I have not seen a great thread comparing what each of those dealers provided or offered and how many cars were made?
I guess to sum it up, I think another category like this could bring about new discussions by new people. While I may not get into the weeds on judging and shows, I still think it is interesting to a certain degree.

There is nothing to prevent those kinds of discussions now, Austin..   in fact, we DO have such discussions when someone raises a topic (generally after attending a Nationals event).. :)   

I see 'actual factory originality' as the mission of this group, and I believe that's the way it should be.  If one wants to build/restore/preserve his car to factory originality, then the 'Original' section here is the best place to get the information.  The biggest 'issue' with that now is that there is no 'organization to it, and finding threads in the topic area you are interested can be difficult to find.

To me, specific deviation of a particular organization's judging determinations - from actual factory originality, are worth no more than a note in this group.  If enough people *care*, then they can/should get a change in that organization's guidelines.  I've judged original restored (and unrestored) classes in the old NNC, the NCRS, and the CCCI, and in my opinion the 'original' determination boils down to the individual judges opinion and that is why most organizations average the scores from 3 judges.  Part of the reason for those judges having different opinions are the discrepancies in the factorys themselves...  :)

PS.  One problem with having a 'separate category' for JUDGING, is that some people would begin to associate how an organization 'judges' a part or category as 'ORIGINAL' (such as with the Camaro Association's allowing full points for base/clear urethane paint).  We need to remember what the CRG basis is... ie. factory production originality...  NOT some organization's understanding or allowance for points.   AND.. there are a number of organizations and probably they all judge differently.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2017, 05:00:06 PM »
Garage Talk is not the appropriate label or forum destination for discussion on Judging. That forum  is not a place anyone would intuitively think to visit for a discussion on the subject of technical judging and it already has a developed profile and following of its own. Judging is not a trivial subject, it is not a sideshow, it deserves a dedicated forum of its own for those who are interested.




Ok then Originality like Gary mentioned..  Regardless good luck with that..  I hope you get it. 
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

dutch

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2017, 05:19:32 PM »
Just a question - but wouldn't a forum or 'discussion grouping' where often possibly even the most minute and often quirky details of Camaro model construction or assembly norms or odd practices from different plants or suppliers - possibly assist those who may tend to want to fake or misrepresent a model or clone, when they might not be privy to such details normally?
I'm thinking of things that could surely and normally tip off an expert judge or someone like a MacNeish who may one of a very few that could detect whether a vehicle was or had been cloned or not..
Not that it necessarily would - but couldn't it possibly open up more details to those who wouldn't normally be aware of such things - effectively allowing them to become more proficient at passing off illegitimate cars?
I know even on the site there often is a reluctance of those who read block and vin stampings to offer more than just a Yay or Nay when it comes to responding to an inquiry, mainly and obviously because the thinking is that the more info given the more it just helps those who don't have good intentions in mind..
In a World where I'm sure everyone agrees it is getting harder and harder to detect real cars from fakes (Corvette World perfect case in point) and where often now good re-stamps are being in many judging categories deemed as acceptable - might this be the one of the first steps in helping Camaro models follow suit and go down a road many wish it shouldn't..? - Just say'n or ask'n..     
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 06:15:16 PM by dutch »

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 05:22:39 PM »
dutch,

Yes that is one potential issue. One of many.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2017, 05:24:59 PM »
There is a misconception that Judging is synonymous with Orginality - it is not. Originality is an important aspect of judging and so is much of the dialogue taking place in the CRG Restoration forum however the subject of Judging is further reaching:
- preparation
- transportation 
- acceptable NOS and restoration parts for judging
- acceptable finishes for judging
- Judging experience - what to do and what you need to know
- the Judging process and how they compare by level and venue
- Judging protocols and decorum
- Judging sheets, point values, deductions and bonuses
- the appeal process
- CRG member debriefs

These are many of the subjects relating specially to Judging that don't have a natural fit in the Orginality forum nor in any other CRG forum at present.

Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2017, 05:53:44 PM »
With having to worry about all that how or when do you get the chance to get out and drive & experience the car..?..  lol  Im kidding..

Seriously though it sounds like maybe that should have its own message forum with that much content.  You could section the forum with sub sections that you have listed above.
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 07:39:31 PM »
There is a misconception that Judging is synonymous with Orginality - it is not. Originality is an important aspect of judging and so is much of the dialogue taking place in the CRG Restoration forum however the subject of Judging is further reaching:
- preparation
- transportation 
- acceptable NOS and restoration parts for judging
- acceptable finishes for judging
- Judging experience - what to do and what you need to know
- the Judging process and how they compare by level and venue
- Judging protocols and decorum
- Judging sheets, point values, deductions and bonuses
- the appeal process
- CRG member debriefs

These are many of the subjects relating specially to Judging that don't have a natural fit in the Orginality forum nor in any other CRG forum at present.

To get that 'deep'... maybe it needs a website of it's own....   :)  (Someone had to start CRG and Team Camaro.... you could start a 'Team Restoration'... :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

cook_dw

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 07:41:41 PM »
Seriously though it sounds like maybe that should have its own message forum with that much content.  You could section the forum with sub sections that you have listed above.

To get that 'deep'... maybe it needs a website of it's own....   :)  (Someone had to start CRG and Team Camaro.... you could start a 'Team Restoration'... :)


 ???
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 07:51:38 PM »
Introducing more fragmentation in our hobby is counter initiative and counter-productive, there is clearly much potential content to talk about, learn and share about Judging. A few short years ago "survivors" were a side-bar and given little mainstream attention. If the same thinking were applied to survivors maybe CRG wouldn't have added a Preservation forum and those many interested CRG members would congregate elsewhere, on another forum. That would be a shame and a loss. I think we can and should embrace the expanding interests of CRG members rather than send them
elsewhere. That's just not progressive thinking.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 08:05:58 PM »
Probably my last post in this thread.

I don't think we want to open Pandora's box.

Over and out.

PS - Constructive is my middle name. :)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:56:25 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 08:34:54 PM »
Would like to see input from other CRG members who have thoughtful input on the subject of Judging.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 09:21:10 PM by Edgemontvillage »
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 10:30:24 PM »
Personally and since you asked.. I for one don't or wouldn't see it as much of a bonus to the CRG as it sits presently.
After scanning your list of titles or breakdown of supposed points of interest and discussion - I can't honestly see where it would enhance the CRG experience for the vast majority of members from my own experiences of mainly shadowing these forum threads and somewhat knowing the members involved in many (just from their posts) of the discussions and topics.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't possibly a lot of good points that might or could be discussed - but I think it would be catering to a very small segment of the CRG membership in both interest and/or usable information.
Additionally (granted possibly I'm the only one that this might feel this way) I sense the suggested additions to this forum sound like they could be ones where often debates will end up in heated arguments about judging itself or personalities themselves and their preferences or practices - that commonly would end up overshadowing whatever good the addition of the category(s) might bring with it considering the varied methods, reasoning, or preferences certain judges or people in that end of the hobby might have verses just the vehicles themselves (which in the end is what we are mainly all here for and about)..
Again - just my own opinion - since you asked for a polling to start..

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 10:44:31 PM »
I am one of many who enjoy the challenge and take pride in taking a 50 year old "wreck " out of the storage and restoring it back to factory new standards and would welcome the vast knowledge of this group has to offer for my current and future restoration projects, I am also a member of the NCRS and have been involved in judging over the years and the mission of the NCRS is to restore a car that appears as delivered at the dealership, since there is very little original paint from 196? left it only makes sense to allow modern paint that is applied to look factory as well as certain repro parts and having judging guidelines sure helps restores from making costly mistakes. The CRG site has been a wealth of information that has saved me from buying the wrong or inferior products and would be exited to see some judging guidelines published for this type of restoration before I invest thousands of dollars in shipping a car to a judging event. I think it would also inspire more people to preserve the beauty that GM intended. P.S.  nothing against resto-mods ! not all Camaros are Z-28's, SS or COPO cars.

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 11:03:47 PM »
How disappointing to read some of the comments and arguments on what Lloyd was trying to convey and recommend.  First off, my main goal while restoring our 68 was not for points but to be correct. That correctness or what was normally observed on certain cars surely has a place on the Camaro Research Group. It's not about a judging sheet but correctness and judging whether some like it or not overlap. I've shared a lot of information both here and on Team Camaro to assist others with my build thread, survivor pictures, etc.. Much of that information sharing hopefully will assist others when working to make their car more correct. How many times have Camaro hobbyist said it would be great to have more information when restoring a car or to have better sources. Just think of our beloved JohnZ and how much information he shared on correctness which in turn is used for restoration which is also used to know what is normally considered correct in judging. It would seem to me the CRG has a limited number of active members and a category of some kind highlighting correctness might add active membership.
Agree 100% with Lloyd but then again I've been there.
One final comment: Judging at MCACN pointed out the wrong battery tray on our car and that information and investigation was shared here and other sites that proved without a doubt original battery trays overwhelmingly had a tab which equated to correctness. That's what its all about, Correctness!
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

bcmiller

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2017, 11:23:46 PM »
Chick - we appreciate that you shared your information. Nothing wrong with keeping that trend going - using the same format.

And - Everyone it entitled to an opinion.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2017, 11:46:30 PM »
and I've suggested that CRG (as a group) formulate such a Judging Manual similar to the NCRS judging manuals..
That will not happen. That is a huge undertaking.  Each NCRS 130-page issue takes a 10-man team 2-3 years to create. The Camaro judging manual has been worked on for 20 years - under USCC, ICC, and ACA - and still isn't done.
How guys have duplicated a factory finish, or patina to match original.
That's why there are Restoration and Originality sections of the forum.

I'm not seeing a need that has been demonstrated. By that, I mean that I don't see many posts about judging that indicate that there is a need for this new section. And I see posts that could get lost - many have no interest in judging and wouldn't have seen or posted in Chick's thread on battery trays if it was in that forum. If the discussion is what is original, then it should be in Originality. Fine to start the post with: My car was judged and is this right?? Same with how to restore a finish - in Restoration.
That leaves the logistics of judging. Transport, judging rules, etc. I have seen scant interest in those, but may I suggest showing the need. Start new threads about the logistics of judging with LOJ in the title, e.g. Transport to MCACN - LOJ.
Kurt S
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Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2017, 12:43:46 AM »
As the originator of this thread I'm pleased the subject has attracted a variety of opinions, some strong.  As a CRG forum participant and contributor who is restoring a 1st Gen Camaro with a view to Judging, I'm at a loss where to find critical information about the process and learn from others who have been through it.  I've never seen a Judging sheet from MCACN or Legends or ? I don't know where to find this information or where to locate advice or engage in dialogue about Judging from those with experience. To the extent this information exists somewhere on the CRG site it's not in an organized form that is easy to access or locate. The search engine route in not effective. If the conclusion is "pick a forum and start a dialogue", that's possible but not nearly as effective or desirable as a destination CRG forum to host the subject.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 04:22:45 PM »
Lloyd,  I was/am interested in the Judging aspect (from an original unrestored perspective, as well as 'restored' perspective).  Since I'd been away from Camaros for several years, when I re-initiated my Camaro activities, I had some of the same questions as you just expounded.  My approach was to go to the Camaro nationals (which I did for several years), and talk to the owners and judges in the classes of interest.  One participant actually offered to send me a copy of his judged sheet after he received it so I'd have a little more knowledge about the process.  I really enjoyed going to these Nationals and seeing what went on, talking to owners, and *learning* more about the cars and the owners restoration activities as well as the process itself.  I strongly recommend that approach, as I don't think 'reading in a forum' is anywhere close to actually viewing it realtime. 

The Camaro Nationals has been held in Fredericksburg, MD for the last few years and occurs in mid-June.  Steve Shauger has also sponsored a judging of Camaros in Carlisle at/around the same time (and those cities are pretty close together)..
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2017, 05:30:24 PM »
Gary, good insight, thanks.  Attending the Camaro Nationals has been on my list for a long time. For those who have the available time and resources there is no substitute for being there and taking it all in. I hope that you and others who have had the privilege will share your experience with other CRG members who haven't. Your perspective and take-aways are valuable.
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)

68camaroz28

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2017, 07:31:52 PM »
Lloyd,  I was/am interested in the Judging aspect (from an original unrestored perspective, as well as 'restored' perspective).  Since I'd been away from Camaros for several years, when I re-initiated my Camaro activities, I had some of the same questions as you just expounded.  My approach was to go to the Camaro nationals (which I did for several years), and talk to the owners and judges in the classes of interest.  One participant actually offered to send me a copy of his judged sheet after he received it so I'd have a little more knowledge about the process.  I really enjoyed going to these Nationals and seeing what went on, talking to owners, and *learning* more about the cars and the owners restoration activities as well as the process itself.  I strongly recommend that approach, as I don't think 'reading in a forum' is anywhere close to actually viewing it realtime. 

The Camaro Nationals has been held in Fredericksburg, MD for the last few years and occurs in mid-June.  Steve Shauger has also sponsored a judging of Camaros in Carlisle at/around the same time (and those cities are pretty close together)..
The show is always the 4th weekend of the month so this year it's June 23 & 24 for the Camaro Nationals. I'll see you there as our car will be there for Legends Judging.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2017, 06:43:51 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Tim - 04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP

68camaroz28

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2017, 11:17:54 PM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Tim that is kind of the point as many of us would hope that at some point there would be some general judging guide, but more importantly I think its more of a standardized correct guide with emphasis on what is normally considered correct which could be used by individuals restoring, checking what they have, or just making what we have better concerning correctness.
Hey its all good and I continue to learn and have fun doing the 68Z.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

Sauron327

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2017, 12:41:54 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Good point. I have seen many over-restored cars that do not represent historical accuracy regarding body and paint. These cars never originally had flawless paint or panel alignment, yet many who restore them for "accuracy" fail in this regard. Over-restored cars have perfectly wet rocker bottoms, full coverage on inner fender braces, no overspray on floorpans or under the hood, and Ridler award gaps. If one wants correctness it should apply to all aspects of an assembly line car.

68camaroz28

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Good point. I have seen many over-restored cars that do not represent historical accuracy regarding body and paint. These cars never originally had flawless paint or panel alignment, yet many who restore them for "accuracy" fail in this regard. Over-restored cars have perfectly wet rocker bottoms, full coverage on inner fender braces, no overspray on floorpans or under the hood, and Ridler award gaps. If one wants correctness it should apply to all aspects of an assembly line car.
Well I know I failed in paint and gaps and know a whole bunch of others that have as well. Does that mean the car has to be painted in Lacquer to meet "all aspects?" Your points go to an area of restoration that few would ever go to and personally I've not noted one completed that way but you are correct.  :)
NCRS deducts points for paint being overdone, or door jams shiny or show chrome, etc., but even Corvettes are over restored compared to "all aspects of an assembly line car." The correctness I referred to was not about gaps but about a wrong service replacement part, what the original part should look like, correct hardware, etc., etc.. Not that long ago Tim was asking about information and we obtained quite a bit from my 67 & 68 NCRS judging manual. It even comes in handy for other GM makes.
Personally I will continue and use originality as Kurt suggested but it would be beneficial if more people with knowledge would assist with information.
Over and out on this one and time to get a car out and enjoy spring. 
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

Sauron327

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2017, 11:37:35 PM »
Been watching with some interest, although I care about originality but don't ever plan to attend a points judging event with a car.
If there is no agreed Camaro judging manual, and the individual judges vary between events, how can there be a standardised guide to judging, unless one intends to prepare the car to the varying standards of each specific event? And from where do the judges derive what they consider to be accurate details, if there is no concensus opinion?
Good point. I have seen many over-restored cars that do not represent historical accuracy regarding body and paint. These cars never originally had flawless paint or panel alignment, yet many who restore them for "accuracy" fail in this regard. Over-restored cars have perfectly wet rocker bottoms, full coverage on inner fender braces, no overspray on floorpans or under the hood, and Ridler award gaps. If one wants correctness it should apply to all aspects of an assembly line car.
Well I know I failed in paint and gaps and know a whole bunch of others that have as well. Does that mean the car has to be painted in Lacquer to meet "all aspects?" Your points go to an area of restoration that few would ever go to and personally I've not noted one completed that way but you are correct.  :)
NCRS deducts points for paint being overdone, or door jams shiny or show chrome, etc., but even Corvettes are over restored compared to "all aspects of an assembly line car." The correctness I referred to was not about gaps but about a wrong service replacement part, what the original part should look like, correct hardware, etc., etc.. Not that long ago Tim was asking about information and we obtained quite a bit from my 67 & 68 NCRS judging manual. It even comes in handy for other GM makes.
Personally I will continue and use originality as Kurt suggested but it would be beneficial if more people with knowledge would assist with information.
Over and out on this one and time to get a car out and enjoy spring. 
The last four cars I've done left the shop with better than factory gaps and paint. It has become common to modify factory panels for show gaps. It is what owners desire after being asked if they want overspray, factory style paint, or irregular factory fit and finish. Most don't know what these cars looked like originally as far as body and paint; and they expect them to look like many 2017 cars (except for paint texture).
As far as lacquer is concerned, that is not the originality of which I am speaking. In this industry, lacquer is getting difficult to obtain, and will eventually be gone. Floor pans, firewalls and every other black component are not being painted with the same materials today as they were in '67. I doubt any judges are taking a sample and sending it to PPG for instance and having it lab tested. Which they can do if a paint warranty is in question. This being mentioned for comparison to lacquer topcoat vs underhood finishes types of paint.

Firstgenaddict(James) restored a Lemans Blue 69 Z complete with missed spots, overspray  and runs on the dipped parts just as they had originally. Many would think it was a horrible job because it was not flawless, but on a survivor it would be acceptable. His job represents how a car left the assembly line. If two cars had the identical parts and one had flawless paint and one was painted as the factory did, which would win in a show? These are just observations, I don't care what anyone does with a restoration, it is their car.

The originality section is a good source for data, as are others.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 01:09:12 AM by Sauron327 »

jdv69z

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2017, 12:44:02 PM »
I was attending a car show in the past, and the owner of a restored 69 Z/28 told me that he had lost points in the judging at the Nationals because his factory original rear bumper chrome wasn't flawless.  :o
Jimmy V.

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2017, 02:47:04 PM »
Question would be if the car was entered in a restored class or a survivor class. And question would also be whether the bumper was original or NOS. If it was an original, non NOS bumper entered into a restored class then I can see the issue. I left the GM stickers with the part numbers on the inside of my bumpers to authenticate them as NOS. Still the chrome isn't as nice as a rechromed original. And even if rechromed, one has to be aware of any repairs that were made that are not perfect.

Edgemontvillage

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Re: NEW DISCUSSION GROUP (FORUM)? - Classes and Judging Guidelines
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2017, 05:27:14 PM »
I was attending a car show in the past, and the owner of a restored 69 Z/28 told me that he had lost points in the judging at the Nationals because his factory original rear bumper chrome wasn't flawless.  :o

Would like to see the judging sheet, often casual explanations don't match the judging reality. "Flawless" isn't a typical judging criteria or standard.   
Lloyd
1969 RS Z/28 (Brooklyn Project)