Poll

Should GM/Chevrolet recall or after vehicle manufacture mandated safety equipment be deducted in judging points?

Yes, points deducted in any and all cases.
No.  No points deducted in any case.
Points not deducted when it is installed by an authorized dealer and can be verified.
Points not deducted when correct equipment is installed but not verifiable as dealership installed.

Author Topic: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro  (Read 9707 times)

Steve68

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Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« on: January 23, 2008, 01:27:39 AM »
We have seen in some recent posts brief discussions regarding judging of Camaro's and points being deducted for recall equipment being on the car.  The points are deducted because the vehicle did not have this equipment when it left the assembly plant.  I am curious as to how you all feel about this and invite you to participate in the poll.

tom

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 02:12:29 AM »
If cars are being judged according to "as delivered condition" then there really is no option but to deduct for anything not original from the factory.

I see significant issues with any other kind of judging. After all these years there would always be dealer installed questions, and almost anything could be claimed as a dealer modification.

We could probably even pass off all the clones as dealer upgrades.

I'm sure others will disagree, but I agree with the current standard, and that means my car will never achieve a high score, even with what I believe to be a mostly original drivetrain.

Tom
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 02:19:50 AM by tom »
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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 02:51:53 AM »
I believe it all depends on documentation. Is the car a survivor? I was at a old USCC  show way back when and looked at a 68 327 coupe from Marve Minnemann that had every shred of "paper" it could.I'm talking sales order,bill of sale,window sticker,POP, first title,lien papers,title apps, gas and service records,thank you letters from the salesman, and yes the recall notice and service invoice I mentioned.. This car was far from pretty, but it was very complete and correct.Should he be hammered for a set of cables? Please.....   

Steve

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 01:03:17 AM »
I wouldn't call it 'hammered' for a deduction on the cables.  Likely a point or two.   :'(

I think they should be considered 'original' as that is a well documented dealer recall, but many cars did not bother to have them done.
We don't make the rules.  The system as it stands is uniform and creates less controversy than if they began allowing dealer installed options...

Can you imagine the arguing back and forth....

 " uh I got a invoice that says the dealer turned this plane jane into a copo, and the dealer is out of business now but I got the invoice here that has a rust stain on it and it looks original and I got it off ebay uh yah"

 ;D
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lakeholme

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 02:46:02 AM »
"Just like the dealer received it from the factory" should be the standard...

So, I'm in the same boat as Tom on my Camaro.  But on some other cars I'm not, and I know nobody is happy when you start modifying the rules...

I've judged various makes and models and the worst thing to do is to go back and forth...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 02:50:51 AM by lakeholme »
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RamAirDave

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 05:24:45 AM »
If cars are being judged according to "as delivered condition" then there really is no option but to deduct for anything not original from the factory.

If you replicate the exterior paint "as delivered condition", I think you will be deducted points.
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JohnZ

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 04:53:02 PM »
If you replicate the exterior paint "as delivered condition", I think you will be deducted points.

In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used; flawless BC/CC paint will get a deduction for "over-restoration".
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68L30

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 05:38:02 PM »
It's interesting how we've lost the identity of our cars in "correct" restorations. I believe it's the reason we see a lot more "day two" type restos...A car should be looked at for it's own merits....I make a living doing quality control for a world wide mfg company. It's a constant world of judging..It's not always a black and white world. You need to have a open mind.


Steve 

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 06:53:46 PM »
I myself wonder if camaro judging will migrate close to the corvettes. I have a ncrs 99.1 national vette that had painstaking work done on to make it look exactly like factory (i did not do it, bought it that way, Laquer paint and all). I myself don't see that with camaros at the few shows I have been to. When I look at my survivor 69 camaro car, the stripe is made with an original stencile (leaving marks behind), the body paint looks different from door to fender (due to paint process), there is a huge gap between front fender and door (i have been told by many that original cars are like that), just different things that when you look at an original, the restored cars I see look nothing like an original (the majority atleast).
If I ever had to restore a camaro, I myself would error on replicating the hard to see marks in the hockey stripe (like a corvette nut would do) and the door gap for starters. I would not go with so much clear as I see most of the cars have today. Original tires are a must (they ride good for me). I in a way hope there is a ncrs version of camaro judging coming someday. When you see a correctly restored vette, its a nice thing.
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Balaclava

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 07:36:39 PM »
I can’t believe a car would be deducted points because of a safety recall. If a care is recalled it means the manufacturer made a mistake and it must be corrected. Just because the correction is done at the dealer shouldn’t matter. It is not the same as a dealer installed option. It is the manufacturer that issues the recall. In fact I believe that if a car was recalled it should have points deducted if the modification was not implemented.
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black69

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 12:45:40 AM »
yeah, this recall item makes me wonder about the 69 L78 camaro I saw in hemmings musclecar review (a white car with blue interior). It has a motormount reinforcement or something something the dealer had to install due to a recall, straight from GM. So are you supposed to take it off for judgeing and then put it on for driving? I now think the recall item (in this case) should be allowed if it should be on the car when you have to drive it. It would be sad a survivor car loses points due to a item that keeps the engine in the car.....
but if the owner of the car never took it in for the recall (like the owner of my car) he should not be penalized either...thus I can say no points deducted with or without recall. Hows that. Not everyone went back for the recall on things, and they should not be penalized either.
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KurtS

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 07:20:05 AM »
The smart owners just installed the better engine mounts..... :)
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68L30

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 02:06:52 PM »
The smart owners just installed the better engine mounts..... :)

Which should qualify for a point deduction, correct?


Steve

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 03:26:01 PM »
Sorry if this is a bit off the "recall" / concours judging topic...

At a recent Super Chevy Show, Tremec (the main sponsor) had a big booth and was giving away a tranny. I was curious if having one of these would push a car out of the "Stock" category into the "Street" category.  They bumped someone out of the Stock class because of an aftermarket radio (the rest of the car was completely stock). I emailed Super Chevy the question, and they kept referring the question to someone else. I guess it was a "conflict of interest" as I did not get an answer.

I would imagine that a Tremec would push a Stock class car to Street even if the rest of the car complies with the Stock judging criteria. Any one know if that is the case?

plumL78

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Re: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 11:25:18 PM »
I'm really going to muddy the water up here. What yould you do on a cowl plenum car and factory headers. They were in the trunk and now they are on the car and thats not the way it left the factory. They were sold and have a rpo # so they were intended to be used on that car. Would it be ok if the car had a dealer invoice stating what it had. What happens when you didn't have the invoice