CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve68 on January 23, 2008, 01:27:39 AM
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We have seen in some recent posts brief discussions regarding judging of Camaro's and points being deducted for recall equipment being on the car. The points are deducted because the vehicle did not have this equipment when it left the assembly plant. I am curious as to how you all feel about this and invite you to participate in the poll.
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If cars are being judged according to "as delivered condition" then there really is no option but to deduct for anything not original from the factory.
I see significant issues with any other kind of judging. After all these years there would always be dealer installed questions, and almost anything could be claimed as a dealer modification.
We could probably even pass off all the clones as dealer upgrades.
I'm sure others will disagree, but I agree with the current standard, and that means my car will never achieve a high score, even with what I believe to be a mostly original drivetrain.
Tom
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I believe it all depends on documentation. Is the car a survivor? I was at a old USCC show way back when and looked at a 68 327 coupe from Marve Minnemann that had every shred of "paper" it could.I'm talking sales order,bill of sale,window sticker,POP, first title,lien papers,title apps, gas and service records,thank you letters from the salesman, and yes the recall notice and service invoice I mentioned.. This car was far from pretty, but it was very complete and correct.Should he be hammered for a set of cables? Please.....
Steve
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I wouldn't call it 'hammered' for a deduction on the cables. Likely a point or two. :'(
I think they should be considered 'original' as that is a well documented dealer recall, but many cars did not bother to have them done.
We don't make the rules. The system as it stands is uniform and creates less controversy than if they began allowing dealer installed options...
Can you imagine the arguing back and forth....
" uh I got a invoice that says the dealer turned this plane jane into a copo, and the dealer is out of business now but I got the invoice here that has a rust stain on it and it looks original and I got it off ebay uh yah"
;D
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"Just like the dealer received it from the factory" should be the standard...
So, I'm in the same boat as Tom on my Camaro. But on some other cars I'm not, and I know nobody is happy when you start modifying the rules...
I've judged various makes and models and the worst thing to do is to go back and forth...
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If cars are being judged according to "as delivered condition" then there really is no option but to deduct for anything not original from the factory.
If you replicate the exterior paint "as delivered condition", I think you will be deducted points.
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If you replicate the exterior paint "as delivered condition", I think you will be deducted points.
In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used; flawless BC/CC paint will get a deduction for "over-restoration".
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It's interesting how we've lost the identity of our cars in "correct" restorations. I believe it's the reason we see a lot more "day two" type restos...A car should be looked at for it's own merits....I make a living doing quality control for a world wide mfg company. It's a constant world of judging..It's not always a black and white world. You need to have a open mind.
Steve
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I myself wonder if camaro judging will migrate close to the corvettes. I have a ncrs 99.1 national vette that had painstaking work done on to make it look exactly like factory (i did not do it, bought it that way, Laquer paint and all). I myself don't see that with camaros at the few shows I have been to. When I look at my survivor 69 camaro car, the stripe is made with an original stencile (leaving marks behind), the body paint looks different from door to fender (due to paint process), there is a huge gap between front fender and door (i have been told by many that original cars are like that), just different things that when you look at an original, the restored cars I see look nothing like an original (the majority atleast).
If I ever had to restore a camaro, I myself would error on replicating the hard to see marks in the hockey stripe (like a corvette nut would do) and the door gap for starters. I would not go with so much clear as I see most of the cars have today. Original tires are a must (they ride good for me). I in a way hope there is a ncrs version of camaro judging coming someday. When you see a correctly restored vette, its a nice thing.
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I can’t believe a car would be deducted points because of a safety recall. If a care is recalled it means the manufacturer made a mistake and it must be corrected. Just because the correction is done at the dealer shouldn’t matter. It is not the same as a dealer installed option. It is the manufacturer that issues the recall. In fact I believe that if a car was recalled it should have points deducted if the modification was not implemented.
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yeah, this recall item makes me wonder about the 69 L78 camaro I saw in hemmings musclecar review (a white car with blue interior). It has a motormount reinforcement or something something the dealer had to install due to a recall, straight from GM. So are you supposed to take it off for judgeing and then put it on for driving? I now think the recall item (in this case) should be allowed if it should be on the car when you have to drive it. It would be sad a survivor car loses points due to a item that keeps the engine in the car.....
but if the owner of the car never took it in for the recall (like the owner of my car) he should not be penalized either...thus I can say no points deducted with or without recall. Hows that. Not everyone went back for the recall on things, and they should not be penalized either.
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The smart owners just installed the better engine mounts..... :)
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The smart owners just installed the better engine mounts..... :)
Which should qualify for a point deduction, correct?
Steve
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Sorry if this is a bit off the "recall" / concours judging topic...
At a recent Super Chevy Show, Tremec (the main sponsor) had a big booth and was giving away a tranny. I was curious if having one of these would push a car out of the "Stock" category into the "Street" category. They bumped someone out of the Stock class because of an aftermarket radio (the rest of the car was completely stock). I emailed Super Chevy the question, and they kept referring the question to someone else. I guess it was a "conflict of interest" as I did not get an answer.
I would imagine that a Tremec would push a Stock class car to Street even if the rest of the car complies with the Stock judging criteria. Any one know if that is the case?
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I'm really going to muddy the water up here. What yould you do on a cowl plenum car and factory headers. They were in the trunk and now they are on the car and thats not the way it left the factory. They were sold and have a rpo # so they were intended to be used on that car. Would it be ok if the car had a dealer invoice stating what it had. What happens when you didn't have the invoice
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In my opinion, this all really depends on what class or level the car is being judged, but if the recall is standard knowledge in the Camaros history (meaning that it’s well known that GM had a recall that affected all V-8 cars) and that recall item is present on the car why would you deduct points for it? I would offer BONUS POINTS for items like that. That being said, in the higher classes of judging, dealer installed (NOT GM RE-CALLED) or over the counter items should loose points because these cars are being judged on how they left the factory. There is just way too much of a gray area, even with the proper paperwork, to even consider opening up that can of worms and still maintain a proper judging “standard”. Paperwork seems to be very easy to come by these days.
I would imagine that a Tremec would push a Stock class car to Street even if the rest of the car complies with the Stock judging criteria. Any one know if that is the case?
In my experience any car in a Stock class would have to have a stock drivetrain offered by GM for that particular year car.
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Some interesting views so far. I must admit that I don't see why a deduction would occur for a safety recall item especially if the original part was still on the car as in the case of the motor mounts. I would think it would be something that the judges would "overlook" in light of it being a safety issue. As for plumL78's post, wow, that takes us down an entirely different road altogether......I don't know how to view that. How have you guys seen it judged? Also, if I understand what JohnZ said in his post correctly,
In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used".
then the paint doesn't even need to be original it just needs to look original to get the points. Why would that not get some deduction though since it is not the paint that was on it when it left the factory?
Steve
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All of the concours standards were set up many years ago through the United States Camaro Club, The International Camaro Club and the Amarican Camaro Association. I have been involved with all three organizations for over 20 years now. The scope of concours juding has been consistant for many years and 98% of the contestants have been satisifed with the hard work that goes into putting these standards together.
Cars have to be restored to the way they left the plant. No recalls period. If anyone entering this type of judging has any questions, that's why I'm here to answser them...........by phone, and not on this forum as I'd be writing for weeks on this subject.
There are other classes for cars that are not 100% stock. If the little issues like this bother you, then other classes are available.
Base coat clear coat paint is allowed now because today's lacquer is not the same as original leaded lacquer from the 1960s. And today, it's not easy to get in many parts of the country. All striping has to be painted over the body color. If not, then there is a big deduction. The metallic in the base clear systems has to be close to original. If not, there will be a hit on the paint for originality. Most of the base coat clear coat systems that have been judged in years past have been very close to original in the Red White and Blue, Diamond and Legends classes.
Jerry
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Also, if I understand what JohnZ said in his post correctly, In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used".
then the paint doesn't even need to be original it just needs to look original to get the points. Why would that not get some deduction though since it is not the paint that was on it when it left the factory?
Steve
Steve, NCRS Flight Judging focuses on the "appearance" of originality, as it deals primarily with restored cars. ABSOLUTE originality is completely different (for unrestored cars), and those cars are covered by NCRS "Star/Bowtie" judging, where ONLY originality is considered, and there are no deductions at all for "condition". Star/Bowtie cars are VERY important to the hobby, as they provide valuable guidance and learning for Flight Judges in terms of what original parts really looked like. I'm an NCRS Master Judge for both Flight and Star/Bowtie judging, and a Bloomington Gold Senior Certification Judge as well - have been judging Corvettes for many years.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/13522/Hat1640.JPG)
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Thanks for that clarification John.
Steve
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are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.
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are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.
Jerry can speak for Camaro judging, but in NCRS Flight Judging, there is no deduction for dealer emblems, as they were part of "normal" dealer prep; installed non-factory decals or pace car-type decals are subject to major deductions, as they weren't part of "normal" dealer prep - they were an "extra", paid for by the customer who wanted them installed. Judges will expect to see "pace car"-type decals rolled up in a package in the storage area, as they left the factory.
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No deduction on dealer emblems or dealer prep type work.
Jerry
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so what i am to understand. most of my customers would not accept a bad factory type paint job, and why would i want my own car to look that bad. i have an original 69 chevy pickup 17,000 mile orange big block with air. the paint is still shinny and is kind of cool. but no way would i paint it that poorly again.
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so what i am to understand. most of my customers would not accept a bad factory type paint job, and why would i want my own car to look that bad. i have an original 69 chevy pickup 17,000 mile orange big block with air. the paint is still shinny and is kind of cool. but no way would i paint it that poorly again.
I understand what youre saying. Neither I nor my clients (at least yet) want a factory quality paint job. I understand the Vette community is different than the rest.
But with so much attention to painstakingly replicate factory finishes, platings, overspray, slopiness, etc. everywhere else, why does the largest area of the car get neglected in terms of replicating originality? I'm not referring to the products used (lacquer vs. urethane bc/cc), but the look/appearance. You hear questions about "how much" or "where" overspray should be, but never hear "does my paint have enough orange peel" or "does it have too much shine".
In theory, shouldnt a glass-smooth, high-gloss paint job get deducted points just as polished Z valve covers, tape-line at the top of the firewall, full-gloss black where semi should be used, etc. would? Maybe it is, Ive just never gotten a straight answer to that question.
I openly admit I over-restore, just something Ive always been curious about.
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The concours judging system is a constant work in progress and for the most part, all who enter into this judging feel it's very fair and that the judges do a good job. Is the paint nicer on a restored car, yes. for anyone who has an interest in this judging, you should attend the Camaro Nationals held at the Carlisle Fair Grounds in June. Doing that will allow you to talk with the "Legend" judges and get a better feel about what goes on. There is a lot to it.
Regarding the original paint cars. I own two original paint Z28s and the paint on both cars is very nice. There is a certain petina on original paint cars and when they are cleaned up, they still look great. Is the paint perfect, no but remember that they were building about 55 an hour for two shifts a day and there were variations. I have seen original paint cars that were bad from day one and then I've seen them with excellent origiinal paint too. Also remember what I said before and that is the lacquer available today is not the same as what they used 40 years ago. Another reason why the base cost systems are allowed.
Jerry
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I'm really going to muddy the water up here. What yould you do on a cowl plenum car and factory headers. They were in the trunk and now they are on the car and thats not the way it left the factory. They were sold and have a rpo # so they were intended to be used on that car. Would it be ok if the car had a dealer invoice stating what it had. What happens when you didn't have the invoice
Then you would have to leave off the Center caps and trim rings as well...
Anyway... there are way too many over restored cars around... none were as nice as the restorations... too many guys want them perfect... not the way they were from the factory.
I would rather see them restored with the imperfections... you would see alot of people falling out and saying this or that is not right... or the paint doesn't match from door to fender...etc
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are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.
Jerry can speak for Camaro judging, but in NCRS Flight Judging, there is no deduction for dealer emblems, as they were part of "normal" dealer prep; installed non-factory decals or pace car-type decals are subject to major deductions, as they weren't part of "normal" dealer prep - they were an "extra", paid for by the customer who wanted them installed. Judges will expect to see "pace car"-type decals rolled up in a package in the storage area, as they left the factory.
John/ Jerry
What about the options that were installed by the dealer, not necessarily at the request of the purchaser?
More specifically - I am torn between repainting the stripe on my 69 or leaving it off. I am now fairly certain this was a dealer added option. I am also contemplating replacing the under dash mounted 8-track- definately not factory
Thanks
Chris
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John/ Jerry
What about the options that were installed by the dealer, not necessarily at the request of the purchaser?
More specifically - I am torn between repainting the stripe on my 69 or leaving it off. I am now fairly certain this was a dealer added option. I am also contemplating replacing the under dash mounted 8-track- definately not factory
Thanks
Chris
Speaking only for NCRS Corvette judging, the standard is that the car is presented in the same condition it was in after normal new car dealer prep, "exclusive of any dealer- or purchaser-inspired additions, deletions, or changes".
In the case of accessory or aftermarket items added (like luggage racks, right side mirrors, kleenex dispensers, 8-track players, etc.), there is no deduction for adding the item itself - only minor deductions for alterations to the car required to install them (like added holes).
Paint alterations are a different issue - if a car is presented with added non-factory-type pinstripes or larger stripes, lettering, race car numbers, or flames, it will get a total deduction for Paint.