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Poll
Question: Should GM/Chevrolet recall or after vehicle manufacture mandated safety equipment be deducted in judging points?
Yes, points deducted in any and all cases.
No.  No points deducted in any case.
Points not deducted when it is installed by an authorized dealer and can be verified.
Points not deducted when correct equipment is installed but not verifiable as dealership installed.

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Author Topic: Judging criteria for 1st Gen Camaro  (Read 8949 times)
Pex68
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2008, 07:42:19 PM »

In my opinion, this all really depends on what class or level the car is being judged, but if the recall is standard knowledge in the Camaros history (meaning that it’s well known that GM had a recall that affected all V-8 cars) and that recall item is present on the car why would you deduct points for it?  I would offer BONUS POINTS for items like that.  That being said, in the higher classes of judging, dealer installed (NOT GM RE-CALLED) or over the counter items should loose points because these cars are being judged on how they left the factory.  There is just way too much of a gray area, even with the proper paperwork, to even consider opening up that can of worms and still maintain a proper judging “standard”.  Paperwork seems to be very easy to come by these days.

I would imagine that a Tremec would push a Stock class car to Street even if the rest of the car complies with the Stock judging criteria. Any one know if that is the case?

In my experience any car in a Stock class would have to have a stock drivetrain offered by GM for that particular year car.
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Chris P
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Steve68
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2008, 06:07:46 PM »

Some interesting views so far.  I must admit that I don't see why a deduction would occur for a safety recall item especially if the original part was still on the car as in the case of the motor mounts.  I would think it would be something that the judges would "overlook" in light of it being a safety issue.  As for plumL78's post, wow, that takes us down an entirely different road altogether......I don't know how to view that.  How have you guys seen it judged?  Also, if I understand what JohnZ said in his post correctly,
Quote
In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used".
then the paint doesn't even need to be original it just needs to look original to get the points.  Why would that not get some deduction though since it is not the paint that was on it when it left the factory?

Steve
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 06:17:41 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2008, 08:58:48 PM »

All of the concours standards were set up many years ago through the United States Camaro Club, The International Camaro Club and the Amarican Camaro Association.  I have been involved with all three organizations for over 20 years now.  The scope of concours juding has been consistant for many years and 98% of the contestants have been satisifed with the hard work that goes into putting these standards together. 

Cars have to be restored to the way they left the plant.  No recalls period.  If anyone entering this type of judging has any questions, that's why I'm here to answser them...........by phone, and not on this forum as I'd be writing for weeks on this subject.

There are other classes for cars that are not 100% stock.  If the little issues like this bother you, then other classes are available.

Base coat clear coat paint is allowed now because today's lacquer is not the same as original leaded lacquer from the 1960s.  And today, it's not easy to get in many parts of the country.  All striping has to be painted over the body color.  If not, then there is a big deduction.  The metallic in the base clear systems has to be close to original.  If not, there will be a hit on the paint for originality.  Most of the base coat clear coat systems that have been judged in years past have been very close to original in the Red White and Blue, Diamond and Legends classes.   

Jerry         
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JohnZ
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2008, 12:03:13 PM »

Also, if I understand what JohnZ said in his post correctly,
Quote
In NCRS Corvette Flight Judging, the paint must "appear" as original (lacquer), regardless of what material is actually used".
then the paint doesn't even need to be original it just needs to look original to get the points.  Why would that not get some deduction though since it is not the paint that was on it when it left the factory?

Steve

Steve, NCRS Flight Judging focuses on the "appearance" of originality, as it deals primarily with restored cars. ABSOLUTE originality is completely different (for unrestored cars), and those cars are covered by NCRS "Star/Bowtie" judging, where ONLY originality is considered, and there are no deductions at all for "condition". Star/Bowtie cars are VERY important to the hobby, as they provide valuable guidance and learning for Flight Judges in terms of what original parts really looked like. I'm an NCRS Master Judge for both Flight and Star/Bowtie judging, and a Bloomington Gold Senior Certification Judge as well - have been judging Corvettes for many years.

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Steve68
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2008, 12:13:10 PM »

Thanks for that clarification John.

Steve
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JoeC
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 06:39:08 PM »

are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 11:32:22 AM »

are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.

Jerry can speak for Camaro judging, but in NCRS Flight Judging, there is no deduction for dealer emblems, as they were part of "normal" dealer prep; installed non-factory decals or pace car-type decals are subject to major deductions, as they weren't part of "normal" dealer prep - they were an "extra", paid for by the customer who wanted them installed. Judges will expect to see "pace car"-type decals rolled up in a package in the storage area, as they left the factory.
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 04:40:25 PM »

No deduction on dealer emblems or dealer prep type work.

Jerry
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sd1968z28
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 06:48:20 PM »

so what i am to understand.  most of my customers would not accept a bad factory type paint job, and why would i want my own car to look that bad.  i have an original 69 chevy pickup 17,000 mile orange big block with air.  the paint is still shinny and is kind of cool.  but no way would i paint it that poorly again. 
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 10:40:11 PM »

so what i am to understand.  most of my customers would not accept a bad factory type paint job, and why would i want my own car to look that bad.  i have an original 69 chevy pickup 17,000 mile orange big block with air.  the paint is still shinny and is kind of cool.  but no way would i paint it that poorly again. 

I understand what youre saying.  Neither I nor my clients (at least yet) want a factory quality paint job.  I understand the Vette community is different than the rest.

But with so much attention to painstakingly replicate factory finishes, platings, overspray, slopiness, etc. everywhere else, why does the largest area of the car get neglected in terms of replicating originality?  I'm not referring to the products used (lacquer vs. urethane bc/cc), but the look/appearance.  You hear questions about "how much" or "where" overspray should be, but never hear "does my paint have enough orange peel" or "does it have too much shine".

In theory, shouldnt a glass-smooth, high-gloss paint job get deducted points just as polished Z valve covers, tape-line at the top of the firewall, full-gloss black where semi should be used, etc. would?  Maybe it is, Ive just never gotten a straight answer to that question.

I openly admit I over-restore, just something Ive always been curious about.
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2008, 11:43:02 AM »

The concours judging system is a constant work in progress and for the most part, all who enter into this judging feel it's very fair and that the judges do a good job.  Is the paint nicer on a restored car, yes.  for anyone who has an interest in this judging, you should attend the Camaro Nationals held at the Carlisle Fair Grounds in June.  Doing that will allow you to talk with the "Legend" judges and get a better feel about what goes on.  There is a lot to it.

Regarding the original paint cars.  I own two original paint Z28s and the paint on both cars is very nice.  There is a certain petina on original paint cars and when they are cleaned up, they still look great.  Is the paint perfect, no but remember that they were building about 55 an hour for two shifts a day and there were variations.  I have seen original paint cars that were bad from day one and then I've seen them with excellent origiinal paint too.  Also remember what I said before and that is the lacquer available today is not the same as what they used 40 years ago.  Another reason why the base cost systems are allowed.

Jerry
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2008, 03:14:32 PM »

I'm really going to muddy the water up here. What yould you do on a cowl plenum car and factory headers. They were in the trunk and now they are on the car and thats not the way it left the factory. They were sold and have a rpo # so they were intended to be used on that car. Would it be ok if the car had a dealer invoice stating what it had. What happens when you didn't have the invoice

Then you would have to leave off the Center caps and trim rings as well...

Anyway... there are way too many over restored cars around... none were as nice as the restorations... too many guys want them perfect... not the way they were from the factory.
I would rather see them restored with the imperfections... you would see alot of people falling out and saying this or that is not right... or the paint doesn't match from door to fender...etc
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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crobjones2
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2008, 11:19:57 PM »

are points deducted for original Dealer emblems or decals installed by the dealer?
Seems to be getting popular to put them back on restored cars now.

Jerry can speak for Camaro judging, but in NCRS Flight Judging, there is no deduction for dealer emblems, as they were part of "normal" dealer prep; installed non-factory decals or pace car-type decals are subject to major deductions, as they weren't part of "normal" dealer prep - they were an "extra", paid for by the customer who wanted them installed. Judges will expect to see "pace car"-type decals rolled up in a package in the storage area, as they left the factory.

John/ Jerry
What about the options that were installed by the dealer, not necessarily at the request of the purchaser?
More specifically - I am torn between repainting the stripe on my 69 or leaving it off. I am now fairly certain this was a dealer added option. I am also contemplating replacing the under dash mounted 8-track- definately not factory
Thanks
Chris
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Chris
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JohnZ
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« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2008, 10:39:16 AM »

John/ Jerry
What about the options that were installed by the dealer, not necessarily at the request of the purchaser?
More specifically - I am torn between repainting the stripe on my 69 or leaving it off. I am now fairly certain this was a dealer added option. I am also contemplating replacing the under dash mounted 8-track- definately not factory
Thanks
Chris

Speaking only for NCRS Corvette judging, the standard is that the car is presented in the same condition it was in after normal new car dealer prep, "exclusive of any dealer- or purchaser-inspired additions, deletions, or changes".

In the case of accessory or aftermarket items added (like luggage racks, right side mirrors, kleenex dispensers, 8-track players, etc.), there is no deduction for adding the item itself - only minor deductions for alterations to the car required to install them (like added holes).

Paint alterations are a different issue - if a car is presented with added non-factory-type pinstripes or larger stripes, lettering, race car numbers, or flames, it will get a total deduction for Paint.
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