Author Topic: Interesting 1969 Z28  (Read 17922 times)

dannystarr

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2021, 07:13:17 PM »
I don't have the knowledge to chime in on tags and stamps. So not going to guess. However, I can say this, STOP SANDING Cowl Tags and areas that have stamps. Use a cloth and some lacquer thinner, carb cleaner, paint remover if you REALLY want all the paint gone in a controlled area. Especially engine block stamps. Be patient during removal of paint in key locations. Even rags will scratch a tin tag if pressure is over applied. Just my opinion.
 I will say this, I commend your integrity on this matter and the time spent to insure correct info. There are many unethical people in this hobby. I have dealt with it several times in the last 2 or 3 years. But I digress. ... Danny

MO

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2021, 12:40:37 AM »
I concur with the belief that you can not assume originality until proven otherwise. That is simply not how it works. Everyone needs assurance that whatever they are purchasing is the real deal.

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2021, 06:21:51 AM »
Well, I appreciate all the input.  I agree things need to be verified.  And although I may be frustrated with the process, I don't dispute that at all.  Most of the cars I work on are a little easier to verify as the whole model line may span 1 to 3 years, and many of them have under 5000, or even 500 cars in the whole production run of the cars.  Most of them have strong histories and if not, records are often available right back to the factory.  That being said, fakes are still out there!  There is a company that makes a fully new Ferrari 250GTO, that is identical to the originals.  So building a rare car from scratch is very possible.  But they don't hide the fact that they are reproducing cars.  Or look at the Cobra's available out there.  And I believe you can buy all the body parts, frame, suspension and practically everything for a Camaro as well.  I can go on and on with reproduction cars...

I don't want to mislead anyone.  I tried very hard to satisfy the driveline end of things at the least.  I thought it was proven out, but it seems some still don't think so.  And until there is consensuses in the Camaro world on a Camaro, its a scarlet letter.

Jerry is very busy, but we are emailing back and forth.  When I know more, I will keep you all updated.  I feel a little more part of your community, and I apricate the time people have taken to respond.  I certainly have learned a lot, and look forward to reading Jerry's book when it gets to me.

Thank you all.

68 Ragtop

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2021, 02:22:33 PM »
There is a pretty clear picture of the tag in this thread. Is Jerry able to give you his opinion of that tag based on pictures?

It is understandable that he may not wish to do that for several reasons.

I am also still just a student on these tags. I have been studying them since I got my first Camaro Fact Book with the tag decoder in 1989, but it wasn't until this site that I really learned anything about what makes a reproduction stand out. I have a couple hundred tags in my personal database, but CRG has tens of thousands. I do not have access to those so if those members who do have access give it an opinion, I would go with that and learn from it. I have about a 90% accuracy or agreement with their opinions. Sometimes I just don't see what they see, both original and reproduction.

I can give you a couple of pointers on what makes tags so difficult to authenticate without giving out any help to the counterfeiters. They already know all of this and more.

Some parts of the tag are stamped at different times and locations on different machines.
Different size tags are used at different times.
Different fonts and codes are used at different plants.
Errors are known to exist in certain time frames and must be present. One off mistakes are also possible.
Reproduction tags have been around since just about the beginning. Advertisements for reproduction tags were in collector magazines such as Hemmings before the internet.
The reproductions have gotten progressively better as they have leaned what we have. Early reproduction tags have more mistakes and are easier to identify.

I don't think I gave away anything that would help the con artists, but if I did I am sure the mods will delete it.

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2021, 04:22:37 PM »
There is a pretty clear picture of the tag in this thread. Is Jerry able to give you his opinion of that tag based on pictures?

It is understandable that he may not wish to do that for several reasons.

I am also still just a student on these tags. I have been studying them since I got my first Camaro Fact Book with the tag decoder in 1989, but it wasn't until this site that I really learned anything about what makes a reproduction stand out. I have a couple hundred tags in my personal database, but CRG has tens of thousands. I do not have access to those so if those members who do have access give it an opinion, I would go with that and learn from it. I have about a 90% accuracy or agreement with their opinions. Sometimes I just don't see what they see, both original and reproduction.

I can give you a couple of pointers on what makes tags so difficult to authenticate without giving out any help to the counterfeiters. They already know all of this and more.

Some parts of the tag are stamped at different times and locations on different machines.
Different size tags are used at different times.
Different fonts and codes are used at different plants.
Errors are known to exist in certain time frames and must be present. One off mistakes are also possible.
Reproduction tags have been around since just about the beginning. Advertisements for reproduction tags were in collector magazines such as Hemmings before the internet.
The reproductions have gotten progressively better as they have leaned what we have. Early reproduction tags have more mistakes and are easier to identify.

I don't think I gave away anything that would help the con artists, but if I did I am sure the mods will delete it.

Thanks 68 Ragtop, that is helpful information on the history of the Tags.  I have seen some of those differences myself, but without a Database, I just can't do any comparison.

I have talked to the owner, and they agree, we took the ads down.  Unfortunately, the only way to get it off Hemmings is to "Mark as sold"  so it is still there, just not available, and it may come out in there magazine.  However, once Jerry has a better look at this, hopefully we can get some resolve and figure out how to advertise and price the car appropriately.

Thanks all again.

If anyone can help me out still, it would be great to get some more resolve on the car.

camaronut

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2021, 01:03:00 AM »
I hate trim tags.

I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(

There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.

Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market.  I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.

Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.

firstgenaddict

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2021, 07:03:09 AM »
I hate trim tags.

I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(

There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.

Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market.  I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.

Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.

That is why so many of us love unrestored original paint cars... there are very few surprises and that is worth every extra penny paid.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

ReaperEd

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2021, 01:53:31 AM »
I'm actually the opposite and spend a lot of hours each week searching, examining and learning.
For me it's working on a puzzle that takes shape with the more I learn.
No desire to be an expert, but it's still fun.
 

I hate trim tags.

I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(

There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.

Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market.  I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.

Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.
1968 Z/28 NOR 06B Original Drive Train
1973 RS Z/28 NOR 01B Supercharged Day 2
2013 ZL1 Lingenfelter
2015 Z/28

camaronut

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2021, 12:52:59 PM »
Reaper - whatever floats yer boat man.... :D

I still hate trim tags.

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2021, 01:17:43 AM »
I finally had time to do the analysis on Burton's '69 Z28 and told him to post my analysis report here on this thread.  The trim tag is one of the newer reproductions and yes they are getting better at making these non-OEM tags.  Older repros are very easy to spot, this one a little harder.  Have seen many repro tags over the past 9 years  working at Barrett Jackson.  However, the complete drive train to this car is real and authentic to this vehicle.  This is the original drive train that was installed in this car when it was built.  I have dozens of the 407 date along with Muncie stampings.  All characters are spot on.  It's a very honest car except for the trim tag.  And where Burton has the car priced at $75k, that's not a bad deal. 

Jerry 

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2021, 01:47:50 AM »
Thanks Jerry! 

I have learned so much about the world of Camaro’s. I am so grateful for the help.

I will certainly be working with you in the future on this stuff. And thanks to the community for pointing out things to check.

Here is the report!

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2021, 01:51:57 AM »
Here is the report if it did not upload.


​January 30, 2021
Data Analysis, 1969 Z28 Camaro
Vin #124379N632049
 
Dear Burton,
 
After careful evaluation of the photographs you supplied to me, it is my professional opinion that this car is an original 1969 Z28 Camaro with complete original drive train.   
 
Here is what I verified through data analysis and use of my Camaro Hi-Performance data base.
 
● TheV0407DZ stamping is authentic to this vehicle.  Upon close inspection and magnification, my data analysis has determined that the engine deck is authentic and original to this vehicle.  I have over a dozen DZ stamps on this date of April 7, 1969.  Your stamping matches my stampings perfectly.  The #618 block casting and D19 casting date of the engine block lines up perfectly with the assembly date of April 7th.  I should add that there were several vin stamping variations during the 1969 model year at Norwood Assembly.  Your vin stamping is correct and original as this stamping matches the build date time line of this vehicle.
 
● The transmission casting #3925660 is correct for this vehicle.  The P9D10B assembly stamp is authentic and an original stamping from the Muncie assembly plant.  The vin stamp next to the assembly date is also authentic and matches dozens of original Muncie stampings from April of 1969.  I have been rebuilding Muncie 4-speeds for over 50 years now and I see nothing unusual with your transmission.  It is my professional opinion this transmission is original to this vehicle.  This is an M21 close ratio Muncie 4-speed gear box.
 
● The trim tag on this vehicle is not an original Norwood trim tag.  This is one of the newer reproduction trims tags and was probably replaced not long ago.  Certain characters and true position of the characters are critical when evaluating trim tags.  The vin number sequence lines up perfectly with the 04C build date of this vehicle.  Tuxedo black is one of the most desirable colors for the 1969 Z28 and I suspect this is why the trim tag was replaced.  If possible, I would research the vehicle and try to locate the original tag to this car. 
 
● The rear axle stamped BV0303G1 is an authentic Gear & Axle Plant stamping.  The #860NF axle housing is also correct for this car built in April 1969.  The B189 casting date lines up perfectly with the assembly date of this vehicle.   
 
● The hidden vin stamp in the upper cowl area is authentic.  All characters are correct and match all cowl stamped characters in my data base.
 
In closing, my analysis has confirmed this car is a true “number’s matching” Z28 Camaro.  The engine, transmission and rear axle are original to this vehicle.  In the world of high performance cars, this is a bonus as many were blown up on the street or race track when these cars were new.   The replacement reproduction trim tag is not the end of the world.  I do believe you have this car priced fairly in today’s market place. 
 
Jerry MacNeish, Camaro Hi-Performance LLC
 
 
 
Credentials:
 
Jerry MacNeish of Camaro Hi-Performance is a Maryland-state licensed and nationally-certified International Automobile Appraisers Association (IAAA) appraiser.  He has written and published two best-selling Camaro fact books and many articles about the first-generation Camaro for various industry magazines.  He has been the Vice President of “Concours” judging at the American Camaro Association Camaro Nationals since 1998, and currently is a Core member of the Camaro Research Group (CRG), which is one of the premier Camaro research groups on the Internet.  He is also employed by the Barrett Jackson Auction Company as an automotive specialist and holds several certified national and world records with the National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) in the D/Stock competition class, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2015.  In years past, he has been an expert witness in Camaro related court cases, a certified “Diamond” master judge with the International Camaro Club, The United States Camaro Club, and The Maryland Camaro Club.   

Z282NV

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2021, 04:47:50 PM »
I give a lot of credit for Design Drive Motors going the extra mile and seeking Jerry's opinion on this Camaro and posting it for all to see. Pleased to hear that it is a true Z but unfortunate that someone in it's past did what they did to the trim tag. Not the end of the world like Jerry said. I am sure the owner has mixed feelings about what to do next, i.e. go out to see if the original tag can be found or just leave it alone. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Joe
69 Camaro

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2021, 05:51:30 PM »
Most real black Z28s go for big bucks with original drive trains.  A known survivor I certified went for $175+ a couple of years ago.  I've seen a bidder spend $100k for a Z28 at BJ when it was announced that the car had a non OEM trim tag!!!  Black sells.  People do crazy things for black cars even if it wasn't a real black car.  Personally I hate black, always did.   

It's troubling that the makers of these tags are getting better and better at it.

firstgenaddict

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2021, 10:02:49 PM »
A known survivor I certified went for $175+ a couple of years ago.

WOW!
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa