CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: Danzo on January 15, 2021, 06:20:35 PM
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https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/chevrolet/camaro/2459941.html
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Body tag is suspect.
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Always be suspicious of 10 10 cars.
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124379N632049
It's had a repro tag for many years....
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Always be suspicious of 10 10 cars.
ALWAYS...
PERSONALLY... I pretty much consider them all fakes until proven otherwise.
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Hey Guys!
I represent this car. Unfortunately, the owner has no paper work on it. I reached out to Jerry MacNeish, he has no info on it either. I am trying to see if I can expedite the process from Muscle car docs.com as the web site says they will mail information out in 30 Days, so I asked them, and hope to get an answer on Monday, if they can email me results. I reached out to Vintage Vehicle Services, they said its an American car, so no records before 1977.
I am in the European world of Classic and supercars, but this is a little different for me. I would like to know as much as possible on this car. Its strange because the drivetrain all lines up, I had Paul Cangialosi look at the trans numbers to verify they were all good, and he says its original, it has all the casting and build dates in order for the Diff(4.10 posi), Trans(m21), and engine. Then the build date for the car as well.
So I am at a little bit of a loss as the car is very beautiful, and the numbers line up, as to why it would have a different tag on it? It has been suggested it may just be for the color change. The restoration is about 10 years old, so I just don't know why someone went to all that trouble on this car 10 to 15 years ago? Any help or suggestions would be so helpful. I don't own the car, but I do represent it. I am just not interested in having my name tied to any type of deceiving, so being above board on all information is very important to me.
Thanks for any and all help. If anyone has any more info on this car, please share. You can PM me, or post here, I have nothing to hide. I just want to get to the bottom of this.
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People were faking Z28,s way before 15 years ago. Maybe someone did it just for a color change on a real Z28. Nice car.
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People were *faking* Z28's in the mid-70's.... and not just 'rarely', but OFTEN! Of course the later fakes are 'better fakes', because more people know more now...
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I am pleased to see the selling representative wanting to do the right thing here and get to the bottom of the issue.
I suggest if you can find evidence of a color change that could help. Other than that, if evidence does not surface and the validity of the trim tag is in question it would warrant a revision to the selling description. It is too bad that the sins of the past can catch up on us now as 10-10 cars do bring a premium.
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Should the transmission vin and block vin be stamped with the same stamp? I thought they should have been but wanted to ask. These dont look like they match
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Thanks guys, I will see if I can find any other evidence on the car as well, suggestions on where to look?
The trans looked suspect as the stamping is not as straight as most of them out there. But I confirmed with Paul Cangialosi, and he said the trans was original. I found that the date codes on all the castings on the car lined up with all the build dates codes in order, and with the cars date code. The trans has a different casting date code on it than I have seen before, but on page 59 of his book, Paul shows a trans done the same way in mid 69. It seems Muncie changed from a casting clock to a casting grid, they ended up with a grid of 12, but before they got to the full grid it seems they did a partial grid with 6 sections on it. Thats what shows on page 59 of "Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions: How to Rebuild and Modify, transmission"
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Thanks guys, I will see if I can find any other evidence on the car as well, suggestions on where to look?
-behind the rear passenger seat back. May even see X7 crayon marking on passenger side.
-inside of door panel behind the door cards (front and back).
-inside of trunk, under the rear deck shelf.
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If you really want to know. Remove the windshield cowl panel and look at, or clean with laquer thinner the hidden VIN underneath. Unless they have sand or media blasted the body it will reveal the original color overspray under the Dover White. Below is my code 52 Garnet Red.
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The panel with the wipers? Remove wipers, remove screws, leave hood on? What side is it on? I will check if the owner wants to go that far.
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Also, I did take out the rear seat, can someone point me to what all the codes mean? It looks like a B? or a D? or at far stretch a circled X (but I don't think that's what it is) Then 77. I have seen people with different numbers and letters here, it seems hard to figure out what they all mean. I looked inside the doors, all black, but may have been painted. I didn't take the skins off but I could see into the inner "pillars" and as far as I can see, black. I looked behind the trim cards in the back seat, one side may have a light blue, the other side looks like surface rust, the really old kind that has a bit of texture to it, but does not go deep into the panel. I Found the Right rear fender was replaced at some point, and so I don't really trust the color of what's behind the right panel. I looked behind the seat in the trunk, looks like bare metal. There is brown there, but again, surface rust. I took pictures, tried to get a good photo on the doors without removing the panels, because I can see it with my eye. I tried to get good photos of the "77" under the glue, as well as good photos of the surface rust to understand I don't believe its paint.
Here is the link to the photos, I added descriptions to each picture, read through and give your thoughts.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/X1esMus5rnAtLArD8
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See link below for the crayon code info. It should be X 7 for this Camaro to match the trim tag X-77 code.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1590.0
I looked at the pictures you provided but nothing really stands out definitively to me. Did you try and remove the inner door panels. Sometimes during repaints they do not fully cover some of the inner areas of the door. Another place to look is under the front dash. You may find hints of original paint over spray. You will need to shine a light up there to see properly.
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The panel with the wipers? Remove wipers, remove screws, leave hood on? What side is it on? I will check if the owner wants to go that far.
Upper cowl panel - remove the wiper arms, screws across the front, leave the hood on. The VIN is usually centered in the top (near center) of the cowl, you most times can see it without touching the paint (unless it's a bunch of coats). Most Z's upper cowlss are oversprayed with the panel color, but you might get some hints about original colors near the corners, and under the cowl opening. As suggested, pull a door panel and examine the surface underneath the panel. Door openings are a good opportunity to look, although a body-off will most times cover that. Still possible a 10-10, but uncommon at best.
Good luck -
Steve
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Things like this are only considered as clues, not proof. Just wanted that to be clear. And unfortunately it can be duplicated later.
See link below for the crayon code info. It should be X 7 for this Camaro to match the trim tag X-77 code.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1590.0
I looked at the pictures you provided but nothing really stands out definitively to me. Did you try and remove the inner door panels. Sometimes during repaints they do not fully cover some of the inner areas of the door. Another place to look is under the front dash. You may find hints of original paint over spray. You will need to shine a light up there to see properly.
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Unless you can locate the original tag, the cars' provenance will always be questioned. No one is going to pay market value for a '69 Z/28 with a reproduction body tag.
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I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.
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And on top of that its clearly not an X. Almost like they got D80 and X77 codes confused and mixed???
I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.
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Body tag is suspect.
124379N632049
It's had a repro tag for many years....
Unless you can locate the original tag, the cars' provenance will always be questioned. No one is going to pay market value for a '69 Z/28 with a reproduction body tag.
First I would like to say Thank you for your help this far. Its been a real journey, but a good one. I am learning a lot, and its good to know that there are a bunch of people out there willing to help figure this out with me on this journey.
Please help me to understand why this Tag is suspect. It looks like its been on the car a long time. But what are people seeing? I have been studying the Norwood tags tonight and I cannot see a difference. I don't pick anything up.
I briefly talked to a local expert on the cars who has been restoring them for quite a few years. He said he know the car has been around in this configuration for quite some time, 10+ years, he said if it had a re-pop tags it would have a different "4" on it. He has not seen this car, and we didn't talk long. But by his description, re-pop tags from 10-15 years ago were not quite like this one. I will try to drive the car over to him to see if he can tell me more.
Every place I look on this car I see black, Except on the right rear fender, where I see a small amount of either a very light blue primer, or a very light blue overspray, but this may not be part of the original car. I have not seen the cowl VIN yet, but hopefully I will get some time in the next few days to see if I can get to it.
So this is what my detective work has revealed:
The engine has an original stamped VIN.
This casting number could be a 302, 327, or a 350. The Engine stamps can be redone, so in order to verify if its a 302, we have to look at the remaining drivetrain. The only other object with a serial number stamp is the transmission
The transmission has a stamp that does not seem ordinary, but is original
However, it is confirmed by Paul Cangialosi, author of "Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions: How to Rebuild and Modify" Considered to be an expert in his field.
The Transmission is an M21, only available with the L78 Big Block, or the COPO Big block cars. Or the Z28, small block 302. So the transmission verifies the Engine, as the only small block with an M21 was the 302.
The Rear diff is a 4.10 Posi, the Z-28 came with a 12 bolt, and 4.10 was a real possibility.
All Casting date codes line up with build codes of each item. Diff Casting date, February 18 1969, built March 3
Trans casting date is in March, build date April 10, 1969. all trans housings and extensions that have dates, are march or earlier castings
Engine Casting Date is April 1, 1969. build date is April 7, 1969.
I Received an email from Muscle Car Docs that put the car here: (I called the Grandsons dealer in Pennsylvania, they are going to look to see if they have any records of it)
Production date: 4/23/1969
Dealer Zone: #12
Dealer GM Code: #275
Dealer Name: Hallman's Central Chevrolet
Dealer Location: Rochester, NY
This is consistent with all the casting and build dates on the drivetrain, and is consistent with the Tag that says the body was started in the third week of April 1969.
Then we have the crayon marker.
I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.
The Marker is Actually under the glue, not on top of it. I know the pictures don't show it well, but in person, it is defiantly under the glue. I looked through the other forum posts on these numbers, and they are so extremely inconsistent. glue patterns are all different, writing style is different, there are different letters before hand, even on Z-28 cars. I understand that none of the pictures on the thread have 2 numbers, just one, so that seems a little odd. But again, this is as bcmiller says, only clues. It seems to me that this was not consistent, could be someone's first day there in Norwood in April of 69, who really knows. Its not checked and double checked like a VIN tag, or Trim tag would be leaving the plant, or any of the car stamps. This is just crayon.
This car has a bad wrap for some reason here, and I understand that these are scrutinized very much as they are the most desired cars. And so it should be. I totally agree it should be. It all seems to hang on this tag. This is the piece of the puzzle I don't understand. If anyone has any more information on why this Tag looks funny, or how they know its had a wrong tag on it, please let me know. This work is my life, its not a hobby, its not what I do in my spare time, its what I do for a living, its how I take care of my Family. So integrity here is very important to me, especially when I am blessed to be working, and healthy when so many are not. I don't own this car, but I do want to represent it to the best of my ability.
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Based on the KurtS posting from 2007 about accounting for 23 black 1969 Z28s, I believe he has seen enough original trim plates to be considered an expert:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1759.msg10992#msg10992
I only wish my friend and I looked at the trim plate on his 1968 Z28, but back in 1970, it didn't occur to anyone to do such a thing.
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Based on the KurtS posting from 2007 about accounting for 23 black 1969 Z28s, I believe he has seen enough original trim plates to be considered an expert:
I have no doubt he has lots of experience. Unfortunately, I have to figure out how and why in order to try and be as up front with the car I can be. So as much evidence that it is not true, is also needed to say it is true. Does that make sense?
I understand people not wanting to post as to why the tag is wrong, just in the fact that having that information out there also means its available to potential fake Taggers in the future. But people can PM me.
I hope people understand that I can't call a car a fake based on someone else calling it a fake. At this level, research is needed. I am a little stuck, as no one knows me, no one wants to share the information for the above stated reasons, but unless the information is verified, I can't call it a fake. I am in no way disrespecting the work that goes on here. Also if my position is incorrect, I don't mind standing in correction.
I am working on the Cowl stamping, and I will probably reach out to Jerry and pay for his services in getting this figured out.
I appreciate everyone's time on this car. You are a bunch of very dedicated people, and I appreciate that so much, and I hope you see I am dedicated to this as well. If there is silence on this topic, I also understand. This is not your battle, so I am grateful for those walking beside me in it. It is my battle with this TAG. I am not giving up yet on finding information, good or bad.
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Only 23 real ones. I know of a green '69 that was painted black back about 40 years ago. Was sold and went to the Philley area. It was perfect and very low mileage at the time. It could be told from others by it not having any insulation and sound deadener. It was drag raced and the owner took that stuff out to save weight?? I wonder?
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23 real ones found? Or 23 real ones ever built? I thought there was 122 ever built. That’s what I saw on another forum, I think here anyways. Can you confirm? People talk about a data base, but where do I find the data base?
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Ok, Pulled the cowl, and I found the original VIN, top center. I could see it, but not photo it very well, so I tried a few different things to get it to show up in a photo, here are some of them. This body, is original to the VIN on the Tag, Engine, Transmission, and Dash VIN. 9N632049.
I also only see black under there. Any thoughts on why someone would have an original car, with drivetrain, and swap a TAG? I found a previous owner of the car, he has had 3 Black Z28s in his life, this being one of them. He was 2 owners ago. He restores these cars for 30+ years and feels this tag is correct One of his 10 10 cars was stamped 10 10, he had the build sheet, it was Canadian and verified and was built in April or May, he could not remember.
If anyone could help out here on this tag, please let me know. Anything else I can do to figure this out would be helpful, but I am sure you are all getting a little tired of this thread.
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In my opinion on why they would swap the tag, a black car is more desirable than a fathom green with green interior to me. (no offense green car guys) Not saying thats what it was but thats a guess. I compared the tag to mine and some in Jerrys book and seen differences. I am not an expert on tags like some of the guys here but I noticed differences. Find some examples of tags near that build date and you will find them.
I still would be concerned with some other things on the car but will leave those to the experts. Things on this car are not consistant with others
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I wonder while examining the underbody photo's that this possibly was NOT a rotisserie restoration, "IF" that is the case the various portions of the underside will revel a hint of its original color or possibility?
My opinion on your situation; Hire in and fly in a recognized & accredited expert and get it certified. The argument would be it would be in a better position with a Cert *[if determined] (as a Original Z28) & an acknowledged color change (i.e. Tag)
especially when the WEB SITE: Design Drive Motors promotes; Inspections and Consulting:
Inspection services, find out what you are buying. Find out what your are selling, no surprises from the buyer. Find out what kind of shape your Car is in, make sure there are no surprises when you are out for a cruise.
Need help figuring out how to move your project forward, and in the right order? We offer Project consulting
Want to know the best way to keep your ride going for years to come? Find out the best methods moving forward
We will fly out to inspect vehicles in other provinces or countries"
Wishing you the Best in this adventure
I am in Washington & I wish I could See the Car It looks like a neat ride.
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Thanks for the help. I am speaking with Jerry about it. With the current lock downs, he has to quarantine for 14 day if he come up here. So he is not really interested. I have ordered his book as well.
You are right I do those inspections, so I am doing the best I can to figure this car out. I find it hard that a car gets flagged in public, and then it’s not backed up with evidence in public. I mean I kind of understand, but even a PM would be helpful if someone knows more about this than me. I don’t know everything, but I am doing my due diligence to find out. But I just get crickets on the one piece of information that I need the most. I don’t fully understand the modivation to call a car out, and then not say why, and it makes me wonder.
I have have a local expert looking at the car on Friday to see if he feels the Tag is real. But he has seen the car before, about 10 years ago, and says that he was quite sure it was real back then, and it was a real 1010 car. That being said, I am sure there are things that I can miss. But at this point, I don’t know how to see them as I have done everything that has been suggested here, except have Jerry look at it.
I have looked many places on this car for overspray evidence, underside included. But I only find black, except in the one place the car has had extensive body work. I have looked up and under the dash, trunk, interior panels and cowl using a mirror. I have found a small section of painters tape in the underside, pulled it off and found black. From what I can see, tag or no tag, this is a numbers matching black Z28.
It’s all good. This is a dead end on finding out the rest of the story. People must have their reasons. I am Talking with Jerry to see if he can tell me more about his tag issue. I hope he can shed some light for me.
Again, I am grateful for all the help so far here. It has helped me do a very in-depth inspection of the car, just as I state I do on my website. It’s now up to the client to decide if he wants to go further on getting the car certified or not. As he is the one paying the bills on it.
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The paint in the area near the partial VIN stamp is not original.
You want Jerry M.’s phone number?
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The car has been painted in the cowl area, but I have looked for overspray up in that area. I have not done any destructive paint checking (removing layers of paint to see). As I don't have the permission of the owner to go that far. He would like to see what Jerry says about the Tag.
I am emailing back and forth with Jerry now, so hopefully we can figure this Tag out.
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BTW this car was for sale for $15k in 2008, described as “immaculate”. Didn’t list the color though.
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Do you know where I can find the listing for it then? Do you have more info on who was listing it?
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Do you know where I can find the listing for it then? Do you have more info on who was listing it?
Remember, this is from 2008.
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$15,000 for (a black 10-10 ??) Z28 in 2008 was cheap. I wish I would have seen this then. I was looking at a garnet red RSZ28 in 2004 and he wanted $42,000.
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$15,000 for (a black 10-10 ??) Z28 in 2008 was cheap. I wish I would have seen this then. I was looking at a garnet red RSZ28 in 2004 and he wanted $42,000.
There is nothing in the add that said it was black.
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Remember, this is from 2008.
Thank you, yes the phone is disconnected. But the email address does not kick back, so who knows. We will see if they answer my email? They were advertising a few vehicles from that number in 2008 in Ohio.
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This car is suspect.
The tag has been flagged as reproduction by the experts and I can see at least 3 things on it that do not correspond with known good tags from that time frame. Can't tell you what they are, sorry.
The M21 transmission is not that rare, it's the M22 that is.
The date codes are way to wide for this time frame.
Restamps and reproduction tags are rampant in this industry, buyer beware.
The 2008 advertisement was either way way underpriced for a matching drivetrain real X77 tag Z/28 (doubtful if seller had multiple cars), or it was a plain jane car with Z/28 tags (common).
Don't get burned on suspect cars. If you can't get an in person recognized Camaro expert opinion, pass on it or be willing to take a loss.
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As an aside... the Ferrari dealer in Canada who purchased N633599 from Lloyd told me that he called Macneish and told him he bought a Black 69 RS/Z... first words out of Jerry's mouth were "It's fake" he said "not likely as you certified it and it has original paint"
Jerry replied WHICH car?
Then said, "I didn't know Lloyd was selling it"
Within the art and collectibles markets there is a formula for price depression given the introduction of fakes into the market.
There are so many fake black cars that when they begin to satisfy any of the demand because the buyers believe they are real, then at that point the fakes depress the price of REAL black cars due to there being fewer buyers to drive up prices of real cars.
If you wanted to get the best deal on a real black car introducing 10 fakes into the market will satisfy some of the demand and allow the acquisition of a real one at a lower price.
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This car is suspect.
The tag has been flagged as reproduction by the experts and I can see at least 3 things on it that do not correspond with known good tags from that time frame. Can't tell you what they are, sorry.
The M21 transmission is not that rare, it's the M22 that is.
The date codes are way to wide for this time frame.
Restamps and reproduction tags are rampant in this industry, buyer beware.
The 2008 advertisement was either way way underpriced for a matching drivetrain real X77 tag Z/28 (doubtful if seller had multiple cars), or it was a plain jane car with Z/28 tags (common).
Don't get burned on suspect cars. If you can't get an in person recognized Camaro expert opinion, pass on it or be willing to take a loss.
I understand, and I don't have the expertise to determine this, that is why I am reaching out here. That's why I have reached out to experts knowing the Transmission verifies an original stamped VIN motor. I am still working on this.
With all due respect, I can't call it a fake if I don't have proof that it is. There is as real a possibility that flagging something as a fake, drops a price, then verifying it as real after the fact gives said buyer a real advantage in suddenly being able to sell it as real.
I have verified it to be an original stamped body, with an original stamped m21 trans behind an original stamped 302 serial number that may or may not have an original stamped engine assembly stamp.
So in order to verify the original engine, if I can't trust the engine assembly stamp, I have to look at casting date codes, and serial numbers of the transmission. Although the M21 may not be as rare, it did only come with a big block or a 302 according to the research done on:
http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#4speed
"The close-ratio M21 was available only with the SS396/350 hp (L34) engine and the solid lifter engines (Z28, L78, and COPO)."
This engine was Date coded April 1 1969, and the Build date of the car finishes on April 23 1969 (according to muscle car docs). The assembly stamp says the engine was built on April 7, which if the stamp is correct or not, still lines up with the consistency of when engines were cast and built according to:
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#BlockCast
"The block casting date must always be before the engine assembly date and it is usually very close to engine assembly date. Blocks have been found that have been cast and assembled in the same day, but that is not normative. There are also blocks that have been cast and then assembled months later; again, that is not normative.
The engine assembly date must always be before the vehicle (not body) assembly date. The engine assembly date almost always is before the Fisher Body cowl tag date. In the unusual case it is later (since the Fisher Body calendar does not always line up with the normal calendar), it should be within a week of the body. Most engine assembly dates are less than 30 days before the vehicle build. Some engine assembly dates can be 30-90 days before vehicle build with the odd exception being >90 days."
This engine was Cast 22 days before the car was completed, the engine was built 16 days before the car was completed, and the body started its build in the 3rd week of April, as you know, the tag does not say what day. Then the car was completed April 23, in the 4th week of April, so please tell me how dates are way to far off, I just don't see it.
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#a
"This is composed of two digits (01 thru 12 corresponding to each month of the year) and a letter (A thru E corresponding to the week of the month) and indicates when the assembly of the body was started"
If I am missing something here (most research done on this site) then please inform me. I can't go back in time. No one will say why this tag is bad, I have tried to prove this car out to the best of my abilities, and therefore I have only a few conclusions left:
-The car is a real Black Z28, and people here just cant believe it, as these cars should be scrutinized to the max.
-Someone here wants this car, knows its original, and wants it to be underbid so they can turn a profit on it.
-The car is an original Z28, but may not have a correct Tag on it, either someone wanted to change the color, or the interior.
-Someone here built that car, and knows the secrets of it, but in order to say, would hang themselves in doing so.
-The secrets of the Tag are so deep that they can not be shared here on line, in which case there is no proof of said secrets, and therefore I cant accurately represent such a car to be a fake unless someone comes forward with definitive proof of it, but it still proves out to be a Z28 none the less. In which case, the price as advertised by my client is Accurate. (an original black Z28 may go for more than they are asking)
However, please, add to my speculation if I am off here, I am open to options that are proven or reasonable. Either come with proof, or take the VIN off this thread please.
Seeing as the car was advertised in 2008 by a person who is unknown, with 2 different phone numbers for ads on the same car at the time, 937-314-4659 , and 786-738-6903.(and a gmail address that seems to be not responding to), who knows why they were "selling" it for $15,000. I had a client just buy a car for $65,000. The previous owner spent $200,000 on the car getting it up to racing spec in the last couple of years, and just needed to sell it quick. I have had clients buy cars for so cheep simply because the person selling had no clue of the market. I have checked out ads for clients on cars with listed VINs and pictures, and they were all scams. There are lots of reasons a car can be advertised for less than its value. Only goodsinlife knows why they advertised this car, with this VIN. Everything else is speculation.
As an aside... the Ferrari dealer in Canada who purchased N633599 from Lloyd told me that he called Macneish and told him he bought a Black 69 RS/Z... first words out of Jerry's mouth were "It's fake" he said "not likely as you certified it and it has original paint"
Jerry replied WHICH car?
Then said, "I didn't know Lloyd was selling it"
Within the art and collectibles markets there is a formula for price depression given the introduction of fakes into the market.
There are so many fake black cars that when they begin to satisfy any of the demand because the buyers believe they are real, then at that point the fakes depress the price of REAL black cars due to there being fewer buyers to drive up prices of real cars.
If you wanted to get the best deal on a real black car introducing 10 fakes into the market will satisfy some of the demand and allow the acquisition of a real one at a lower price.
I appreciate all that is said. Those are true economics. And its a real shame that people do such things. Why cant we just call a spade a spade, and leave it at that. I know people are hard up for money, I know people are greedy, but I also know not all people are that way. I hope you all see I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes here, I am trying my hardest to get to the bottom of this.
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Design Drive Motors, I for one, and I'm sure there are others, appreciate that you are trying your best to validate this car. I think the only way you are going to get a resolution is to have a known and respected Camaro aficionado inspect it. If it is legit, great. If not, and they find the trim tag suspect, don't be surprised if they don't reveal the differences. You have to understand that with that information, someone could make a better fake. And no disrespect, but even you. The other option is to build your own data base and learn the discrepancies for yourself. That likely will take quite some time though. I've been comparing stamps and tags for 15+ years and still don't consider myself a pro at it. Again, kudos to you for coming on here, doing the research and asking questions and for help.
Best of luck!
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If you would like my opinion on the engine stamping, send a good clear high resolution photo of the block “pad” under the alternator area. I have not seen it.
It’s your opinion that the car is real until proven fake. But that’s not the case.
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I sincerely hope that someone here can help you, and a least privately send you a message telling you why it’s believed to be a fake tag.
Many people on this forum really know what they are looking at.
Also they have a data base to back up what they know.
I have even seen before where it’s known that a certain car (that is known of) has the same body tag number as another car proving one car is fake.
I am not saying that’s the case here, I’m just saying there are ways to tell by using the data base.
I for one think you are representing a beautiful car and really appreciate the fact that you are trying to verify it.
It shows great integrity on your part.
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I’ve been following discussion - really fascinating and interesting. I think it’s great that so many are willing to share your knowledge / opinions and DDM is attempting to accurately represent the car. Until now, there has been nothing for which I could offer an opinion or advice.
Commenting on the suggestion that the car should be assumed real until proven to be a fake.
In collectibles, whether baseball cards, art, cars, etc. , when there are many more fakes than real items the value comes from proving the item is real - not asserting something is real until proven fake. It’s why provenance is so valuable in the art world - where sometimes even experts can’t distinguish brush strokes of masters vs fakers.
My opinion, if the seller of the car wants top dollar it’s their responsibility to do the work and/or pay for the provenance. This isn’t like a court of law where the jury is required to find the item real unless proven false. Of course, if provenance isn’t or can’t be provided then the seller chooses how to represent the car and the community chooses how to judge the car - essentially a community based validation/invalidation of the provenance offered. Then it’s up to the market to decide and buyer’s job to protect themselves.
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I don't have the knowledge to chime in on tags and stamps. So not going to guess. However, I can say this, STOP SANDING Cowl Tags and areas that have stamps. Use a cloth and some lacquer thinner, carb cleaner, paint remover if you REALLY want all the paint gone in a controlled area. Especially engine block stamps. Be patient during removal of paint in key locations. Even rags will scratch a tin tag if pressure is over applied. Just my opinion.
I will say this, I commend your integrity on this matter and the time spent to insure correct info. There are many unethical people in this hobby. I have dealt with it several times in the last 2 or 3 years. But I digress. ... Danny
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I concur with the belief that you can not assume originality until proven otherwise. That is simply not how it works. Everyone needs assurance that whatever they are purchasing is the real deal.
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Well, I appreciate all the input. I agree things need to be verified. And although I may be frustrated with the process, I don't dispute that at all. Most of the cars I work on are a little easier to verify as the whole model line may span 1 to 3 years, and many of them have under 5000, or even 500 cars in the whole production run of the cars. Most of them have strong histories and if not, records are often available right back to the factory. That being said, fakes are still out there! There is a company that makes a fully new Ferrari 250GTO, that is identical to the originals. So building a rare car from scratch is very possible. But they don't hide the fact that they are reproducing cars. Or look at the Cobra's available out there. And I believe you can buy all the body parts, frame, suspension and practically everything for a Camaro as well. I can go on and on with reproduction cars...
I don't want to mislead anyone. I tried very hard to satisfy the driveline end of things at the least. I thought it was proven out, but it seems some still don't think so. And until there is consensuses in the Camaro world on a Camaro, its a scarlet letter.
Jerry is very busy, but we are emailing back and forth. When I know more, I will keep you all updated. I feel a little more part of your community, and I apricate the time people have taken to respond. I certainly have learned a lot, and look forward to reading Jerry's book when it gets to me.
Thank you all.
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There is a pretty clear picture of the tag in this thread. Is Jerry able to give you his opinion of that tag based on pictures?
It is understandable that he may not wish to do that for several reasons.
I am also still just a student on these tags. I have been studying them since I got my first Camaro Fact Book with the tag decoder in 1989, but it wasn't until this site that I really learned anything about what makes a reproduction stand out. I have a couple hundred tags in my personal database, but CRG has tens of thousands. I do not have access to those so if those members who do have access give it an opinion, I would go with that and learn from it. I have about a 90% accuracy or agreement with their opinions. Sometimes I just don't see what they see, both original and reproduction.
I can give you a couple of pointers on what makes tags so difficult to authenticate without giving out any help to the counterfeiters. They already know all of this and more.
Some parts of the tag are stamped at different times and locations on different machines.
Different size tags are used at different times.
Different fonts and codes are used at different plants.
Errors are known to exist in certain time frames and must be present. One off mistakes are also possible.
Reproduction tags have been around since just about the beginning. Advertisements for reproduction tags were in collector magazines such as Hemmings before the internet.
The reproductions have gotten progressively better as they have leaned what we have. Early reproduction tags have more mistakes and are easier to identify.
I don't think I gave away anything that would help the con artists, but if I did I am sure the mods will delete it.
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There is a pretty clear picture of the tag in this thread. Is Jerry able to give you his opinion of that tag based on pictures?
It is understandable that he may not wish to do that for several reasons.
I am also still just a student on these tags. I have been studying them since I got my first Camaro Fact Book with the tag decoder in 1989, but it wasn't until this site that I really learned anything about what makes a reproduction stand out. I have a couple hundred tags in my personal database, but CRG has tens of thousands. I do not have access to those so if those members who do have access give it an opinion, I would go with that and learn from it. I have about a 90% accuracy or agreement with their opinions. Sometimes I just don't see what they see, both original and reproduction.
I can give you a couple of pointers on what makes tags so difficult to authenticate without giving out any help to the counterfeiters. They already know all of this and more.
Some parts of the tag are stamped at different times and locations on different machines.
Different size tags are used at different times.
Different fonts and codes are used at different plants.
Errors are known to exist in certain time frames and must be present. One off mistakes are also possible.
Reproduction tags have been around since just about the beginning. Advertisements for reproduction tags were in collector magazines such as Hemmings before the internet.
The reproductions have gotten progressively better as they have leaned what we have. Early reproduction tags have more mistakes and are easier to identify.
I don't think I gave away anything that would help the con artists, but if I did I am sure the mods will delete it.
Thanks 68 Ragtop, that is helpful information on the history of the Tags. I have seen some of those differences myself, but without a Database, I just can't do any comparison.
I have talked to the owner, and they agree, we took the ads down. Unfortunately, the only way to get it off Hemmings is to "Mark as sold" so it is still there, just not available, and it may come out in there magazine. However, once Jerry has a better look at this, hopefully we can get some resolve and figure out how to advertise and price the car appropriately.
Thanks all again.
If anyone can help me out still, it would be great to get some more resolve on the car.
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I hate trim tags.
I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(
There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.
Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market. I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.
Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.
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I hate trim tags.
I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(
There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.
Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market. I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.
Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.
That is why so many of us love unrestored original paint cars... there are very few surprises and that is worth every extra penny paid.
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I'm actually the opposite and spend a lot of hours each week searching, examining and learning.
For me it's working on a puzzle that takes shape with the more I learn.
No desire to be an expert, but it's still fun.
I hate trim tags.
I really hate trim tag counterfeiters. >:(
There's too much "voodoo" in these tags and not much info around about how to spot bad ones until you find out here, then it's too late.
Kinda makes me wanna get into the AMX market. I don't think those folks really care, they just want a nice car.
Feel sorry for DDM, and glad he's being honest.
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Reaper - whatever floats yer boat man.... :D
I still hate trim tags.
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I finally had time to do the analysis on Burton's '69 Z28 and told him to post my analysis report here on this thread. The trim tag is one of the newer reproductions and yes they are getting better at making these non-OEM tags. Older repros are very easy to spot, this one a little harder. Have seen many repro tags over the past 9 years working at Barrett Jackson. However, the complete drive train to this car is real and authentic to this vehicle. This is the original drive train that was installed in this car when it was built. I have dozens of the 407 date along with Muncie stampings. All characters are spot on. It's a very honest car except for the trim tag. And where Burton has the car priced at $75k, that's not a bad deal.
Jerry
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Thanks Jerry!
I have learned so much about the world of Camaro’s. I am so grateful for the help.
I will certainly be working with you in the future on this stuff. And thanks to the community for pointing out things to check.
Here is the report!
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Here is the report if it did not upload.
January 30, 2021
Data Analysis, 1969 Z28 Camaro
Vin #124379N632049
Dear Burton,
After careful evaluation of the photographs you supplied to me, it is my professional opinion that this car is an original 1969 Z28 Camaro with complete original drive train.
Here is what I verified through data analysis and use of my Camaro Hi-Performance data base.
● TheV0407DZ stamping is authentic to this vehicle. Upon close inspection and magnification, my data analysis has determined that the engine deck is authentic and original to this vehicle. I have over a dozen DZ stamps on this date of April 7, 1969. Your stamping matches my stampings perfectly. The #618 block casting and D19 casting date of the engine block lines up perfectly with the assembly date of April 7th. I should add that there were several vin stamping variations during the 1969 model year at Norwood Assembly. Your vin stamping is correct and original as this stamping matches the build date time line of this vehicle.
● The transmission casting #3925660 is correct for this vehicle. The P9D10B assembly stamp is authentic and an original stamping from the Muncie assembly plant. The vin stamp next to the assembly date is also authentic and matches dozens of original Muncie stampings from April of 1969. I have been rebuilding Muncie 4-speeds for over 50 years now and I see nothing unusual with your transmission. It is my professional opinion this transmission is original to this vehicle. This is an M21 close ratio Muncie 4-speed gear box.
● The trim tag on this vehicle is not an original Norwood trim tag. This is one of the newer reproduction trims tags and was probably replaced not long ago. Certain characters and true position of the characters are critical when evaluating trim tags. The vin number sequence lines up perfectly with the 04C build date of this vehicle. Tuxedo black is one of the most desirable colors for the 1969 Z28 and I suspect this is why the trim tag was replaced. If possible, I would research the vehicle and try to locate the original tag to this car.
● The rear axle stamped BV0303G1 is an authentic Gear & Axle Plant stamping. The #860NF axle housing is also correct for this car built in April 1969. The B189 casting date lines up perfectly with the assembly date of this vehicle.
● The hidden vin stamp in the upper cowl area is authentic. All characters are correct and match all cowl stamped characters in my data base.
In closing, my analysis has confirmed this car is a true “number’s matching” Z28 Camaro. The engine, transmission and rear axle are original to this vehicle. In the world of high performance cars, this is a bonus as many were blown up on the street or race track when these cars were new. The replacement reproduction trim tag is not the end of the world. I do believe you have this car priced fairly in today’s market place.
Jerry MacNeish, Camaro Hi-Performance LLC
Credentials:
Jerry MacNeish of Camaro Hi-Performance is a Maryland-state licensed and nationally-certified International Automobile Appraisers Association (IAAA) appraiser. He has written and published two best-selling Camaro fact books and many articles about the first-generation Camaro for various industry magazines. He has been the Vice President of “Concours” judging at the American Camaro Association Camaro Nationals since 1998, and currently is a Core member of the Camaro Research Group (CRG), which is one of the premier Camaro research groups on the Internet. He is also employed by the Barrett Jackson Auction Company as an automotive specialist and holds several certified national and world records with the National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) in the D/Stock competition class, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2015. In years past, he has been an expert witness in Camaro related court cases, a certified “Diamond” master judge with the International Camaro Club, The United States Camaro Club, and The Maryland Camaro Club.
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I give a lot of credit for Design Drive Motors going the extra mile and seeking Jerry's opinion on this Camaro and posting it for all to see. Pleased to hear that it is a true Z but unfortunate that someone in it's past did what they did to the trim tag. Not the end of the world like Jerry said. I am sure the owner has mixed feelings about what to do next, i.e. go out to see if the original tag can be found or just leave it alone. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
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Most real black Z28s go for big bucks with original drive trains. A known survivor I certified went for $175+ a couple of years ago. I've seen a bidder spend $100k for a Z28 at BJ when it was announced that the car had a non OEM trim tag!!! Black sells. People do crazy things for black cars even if it wasn't a real black car. Personally I hate black, always did.
It's troubling that the makers of these tags are getting better and better at it.
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A known survivor I certified went for $175+ a couple of years ago.
WOW!
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All I can say is that I would have no problem at all buying a car from Design drive motors!
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DDM, I know it's not the best news, but it's by no means the worst either. Props again for your determination to validate the car. And you picked an outstanding source for confirmation. Good luck with whatever you decide to do further with this car.
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Hey, thanks guys. Appreciate all the help from you here. I may keep trying to find out who the owner in floria was before with that ad that was posted in 2008. It would be interesting to talk with them. But at this point, I have talked to the last 3 owners. Who have all said they don’t know where the tag is. Even if we had it in a bag, that would be something. But it may stay a bit of a mystery for now. Car is back up for sale with Jerry’s report, and with the information that the tag has been replaced. Still a nice car for someone to own. So hopefully a new owner will be pleased with what they get.
Thanks again guys.