Author Topic: Interesting 1969 Z28  (Read 17934 times)

Z282NV

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2021, 12:02:36 AM »
See link below for the crayon code info. It should be X 7 for this Camaro to match the trim tag X-77 code.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1590.0

I looked at the pictures you provided but nothing really stands out definitively to me. Did you try and remove the inner door panels. Sometimes during repaints they do not fully cover some of the inner areas of the door. Another place to look is under the front dash.  You may find hints of original paint over spray. You will need to shine a light up there to see properly.
Joe
69 Camaro

z28z11

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2021, 02:43:36 AM »
The panel with the wipers?  Remove wipers, remove screws, leave hood on?  What side is it on?  I will check if the owner wants to go that far. 

Upper cowl panel - remove the wiper arms, screws across the front, leave the hood on. The VIN is usually centered in the top (near center) of the cowl, you most times can see it without touching the paint (unless it's a bunch of coats). Most Z's upper cowlss are oversprayed with the panel color, but you might get some hints about original colors near the corners, and under the cowl opening. As suggested, pull a door panel and examine the surface underneath the panel. Door openings are a good opportunity to look, although a body-off will most times cover that. Still possible a 10-10, but uncommon at best.

Good luck -

Steve
1968 Z28 M21/U17 BRG/W 1967 Chevy ll Nova SS 
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1969 Z11 L48/M35/C60/C06  1949 3100 5wd 235/6

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2021, 03:30:39 PM »
Things like this are only considered as clues, not proof. Just wanted that to be clear. And unfortunately it can be duplicated later.


See link below for the crayon code info. It should be X 7 for this Camaro to match the trim tag X-77 code.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1590.0

I looked at the pictures you provided but nothing really stands out definitively to me. Did you try and remove the inner door panels. Sometimes during repaints they do not fully cover some of the inner areas of the door. Another place to look is under the front dash.  You may find hints of original paint over spray. You will need to shine a light up there to see properly.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

william

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2021, 04:51:37 PM »
Unless you can locate the original tag, the cars' provenance will always be questioned. No one is going to pay market value for a '69 Z/28 with a reproduction body tag.
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firstgenaddict

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2021, 05:20:29 PM »
I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.
James
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usa1ti

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2021, 06:39:32 PM »
And on top of that its clearly not an X. Almost like they got D80 and X77 codes confused and mixed???


I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.
Todd, East TN

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2021, 07:24:41 AM »
Body tag is suspect.
124379N632049
It's had a repro tag for many years....
Unless you can locate the original tag, the cars' provenance will always be questioned. No one is going to pay market value for a '69 Z/28 with a reproduction body tag.

First I would like to say Thank you for your help this far.  Its been a real journey, but a good one.  I am learning a lot, and its good to know that there are a bunch of people out there willing to help figure this out with me on this journey.

Please help me to understand why this Tag is suspect.  It looks like its been on the car a long time.  But what are people seeing?  I have been studying the Norwood tags tonight and I cannot see a difference.  I don't pick anything up. 

  I briefly talked to a local expert on the cars who has been restoring them for quite a few years.  He said he know the car has been around in this configuration for quite some time, 10+ years, he said if it had a re-pop tags it would have a different "4" on it.  He has not seen this car, and we didn't talk long.  But by his description, re-pop tags from 10-15 years ago were not quite like this one.  I will try to drive the car over to him to see if he can tell me more.

Every place I look on this car I see black, Except on the right rear fender, where I see a small amount of either a very light blue primer, or a very light blue overspray, but this may not be part of the original car.  I have not seen the cowl VIN yet, but hopefully I will get some time in the next few days to see if I can get to it.

So this is what my detective work has revealed:

The engine has an original stamped VIN. 
          This casting number could be a 302, 327, or a 350.  The Engine stamps can be redone, so in order to verify if its a 302, we have to look at the remaining drivetrain.  The only other object with a serial number stamp is the transmission

The transmission has a stamp that does not seem ordinary, but is original
          However, it is confirmed by Paul Cangialosi, author of "Muncie 4-Speed Transmissions: How to Rebuild and Modify"  Considered to be an expert in his field. 
          The Transmission is an M21, only available with the L78 Big Block, or the COPO Big block cars.  Or the Z28, small block 302.  So the transmission verifies the Engine, as the only small block with an M21 was the 302.

The Rear diff is a 4.10 Posi, the Z-28 came with a 12 bolt, and 4.10 was a real possibility.

All Casting date codes line up with build codes of each item.  Diff Casting date, February 18 1969, built March 3
Trans casting date is in March, build date April 10, 1969.  all trans housings and extensions that have dates, are march or earlier castings
Engine Casting Date is April 1, 1969.  build date is April 7, 1969.

I Received an email from Muscle Car Docs that put the car here: (I called the Grandsons dealer in Pennsylvania, they are going to look to see if they have any records of it)
Production date:          4/23/1969
Dealer Zone:                #12
Dealer GM Code:          #275
Dealer Name:               Hallman's Central Chevrolet
Dealer Location:           Rochester,  NY

This is consistent with all the casting and build dates on the drivetrain, and is consistent with the Tag that says the body was started in the third week of April 1969.

Then we have the crayon marker.

I have seen ALOT of original bulkhead markings on first gens but this is the first time I have ever seen one over the glue for the package tray.

The Marker is Actually under the glue, not on top of it.  I know the pictures don't show it well, but in person, it is defiantly under the glue.  I looked through the other forum posts on these numbers, and they are so extremely inconsistent.  glue patterns are all different, writing style is different, there are different letters before hand, even on Z-28 cars.  I understand that none of the pictures on the thread have 2 numbers, just one, so that seems a little odd.  But again, this is as bcmiller says, only clues.  It seems to me that this was not consistent, could be someone's first day there in Norwood in April of 69, who really knows.  Its not checked and double checked like a VIN tag, or Trim tag would be leaving the plant, or any of the car stamps.  This is just crayon.

This car has a bad wrap for some reason here, and I understand that these are scrutinized very much as they are the most desired cars.  And so it should be.  I totally agree it should be.  It all seems to hang on this tag.  This is the piece of the puzzle I don't understand.  If anyone has any more information on why this Tag looks funny, or how they know its had a wrong tag on it, please let me know.  This work is my life, its not a hobby, its not what I do in my spare time, its what I do for a living, its how I take care of my Family.  So integrity here is very important to me, especially when I am blessed to be working, and healthy when so many are not.  I don't own this car, but I do want to represent it to the best of my ability. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:08:32 AM by Design Drive Motors »

GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2021, 06:42:01 PM »
Based on the KurtS posting from 2007 about accounting for 23 black 1969 Z28s, I believe he has seen enough original trim plates to be considered an expert:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1759.msg10992#msg10992

I only wish my friend and I looked at the trim plate on his 1968 Z28, but back in 1970, it didn't occur to anyone to do such a thing. 

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2021, 07:29:08 PM »
Based on the KurtS posting from 2007 about accounting for 23 black 1969 Z28s, I believe he has seen enough original trim plates to be considered an expert:


I have no doubt he has lots of experience.  Unfortunately, I have to figure out how and why in order to try and be as up front with the car I can be.  So as much evidence that it is not true, is also needed to say it is true.  Does that make sense? 

I understand people not wanting to post as to why the tag is wrong, just in the fact that having that information out there also means its available to potential fake Taggers in the future.  But people can PM me.

I hope people understand that I can't call a car a fake based on someone else calling it a fake.  At this level, research is needed.  I am a little stuck, as no one knows me, no one wants to share the information for the above stated reasons, but unless the information is verified, I can't call it a fake.  I am in no way disrespecting the work that goes on here.  Also if my position is incorrect, I don't mind standing in correction.

I am working on the Cowl stamping, and I will probably reach out to Jerry and pay for his services in getting this figured out. 

I appreciate everyone's time on this car.  You are a bunch of very dedicated people, and I appreciate that so much, and I hope you see I am dedicated to this as well.  If there is silence on this topic, I also understand.  This is not your battle, so I am grateful for those walking beside me in it.  It is my battle with this TAG.  I am not giving up yet on finding information, good or bad.

maroman

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2021, 09:19:53 PM »
Only 23 real ones. I know of a green '69 that was painted black back about 40 years ago. Was sold and went to the Philley area. It was perfect and very low mileage at the time. It could be told from others by it not having any insulation and sound deadener. It was drag raced and the owner took that stuff out to save weight?? I wonder? 
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2021, 01:43:32 AM »
23 real ones found?  Or 23 real ones ever built?  I thought there was 122 ever built. That’s what I saw on another forum, I think here anyways. Can you confirm?  People talk about a data base, but where do I find the data base? 

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2021, 02:57:40 AM »
Ok, Pulled the cowl, and I found the original VIN, top center.  I could see it, but not photo it very well, so I tried a few different things to get it to show up in a photo, here are some of them.  This body, is original to the VIN on the Tag, Engine, Transmission, and Dash VIN. 9N632049.

I also only see black under there.  Any thoughts on why someone would have an original car, with drivetrain, and swap a TAG?  I found a previous owner of the car, he has had 3 Black Z28s in his life, this being one of them.  He was 2 owners ago.  He restores these cars for 30+ years and feels this tag is correct  One of his 10 10 cars was stamped 10 10, he had the build sheet, it was Canadian and verified and was built in April or May, he could not remember. 

If anyone could help out here on this tag, please let me know.  Anything else I can do to figure this out would be helpful, but I am sure you are all getting a little tired of this thread. 

BillOhio

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2021, 03:21:22 AM »
In my opinion on why they would swap the tag, a black car is more desirable than a fathom green with green interior to me.  (no offense green car guys)  Not saying thats what it was but thats a guess.  I compared the tag to mine and some in Jerrys book and seen differences. I am not an expert on tags like some of the guys here but I noticed differences.  Find some examples of tags near that build date and you will find them.
I still would be concerned with some other things on the car but will leave those to the experts.  Things on this car are not consistant with others
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1970 Z28 M22 4:10 bought from original owner
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

169INDY

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2021, 03:55:31 AM »
I wonder while examining the underbody photo's that this possibly was NOT a rotisserie restoration, "IF" that is the case the various portions of the underside will revel a hint of its original color or possibility?

My opinion on your situation; Hire in and fly in a recognized & accredited expert and get it certified. The argument would be it would be in a better position with a Cert *[if determined] (as a Original Z28) & an acknowledged color change (i.e. Tag) 

especially when the WEB SITE: Design Drive Motors promotes; Inspections and Consulting:
Inspection services, find out what you are buying. Find out what your are selling, no surprises from the buyer. Find out what kind of shape your Car is in, make sure there are no surprises when you are out for a cruise.
Need help figuring out how to move your project forward, and in the right order? We offer Project consulting
Want to know the best way to keep your ride going for years to come? Find out the best methods moving forward
We will fly out to inspect vehicles in other provinces or countries"
 

Wishing you the Best in this adventure

I am in Washington & I wish I could See the Car It looks like a neat ride.

Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2021, 02:44:46 PM »
Thanks for the help. I am speaking with Jerry about it. With the current lock downs, he has to quarantine for 14 day if he come up here. So he is not really interested. I have ordered his book as well.

You are right I do those inspections, so I am doing the best I can to figure this car out. I find it hard that a car gets flagged in public, and then it’s not backed up with evidence in public. I mean I kind of understand, but even a PM would be helpful if someone knows more about this than me. I don’t know everything, but I am doing my due diligence to find out.  But I just get crickets on the one piece of information that I need the most. I don’t fully understand the modivation to call a car out, and then not say why, and it makes me wonder.

I have have a local expert looking at the car on Friday to see if he feels the Tag is real. But he has seen the car before, about 10 years ago, and says that he was quite sure it was real back then, and it was a real 1010 car. That being said, I am sure there are things that I can miss. But at this point, I don’t know how to see them as I have done everything that has been suggested here, except have Jerry look at it.

I have looked many places on this car for overspray evidence, underside included. But I only find black, except in the one place the car has had extensive body work. I have looked up and under the dash, trunk, interior panels and cowl using a mirror. I have found a small section of painters tape in the underside, pulled it off and found black. From what I can see, tag or no tag, this is a numbers matching black Z28.

It’s all good. This is a dead end on finding out the rest of the story. People must have their reasons. I am Talking with Jerry to see if he can tell me more about his tag issue. I hope he can shed some light for me.

Again, I am grateful for all the help so far here. It has helped me do a very in-depth inspection of the car, just as I state I do on my website. It’s now up to the client to decide if he wants to go further on getting the car certified or not. As he is the one paying the bills on it.