Author Topic: Interesting 1969 Z28  (Read 8698 times)

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2021, 03:28:59 PM »
The paint in the area near the partial VIN stamp is not original.

You want Jerry M.ís phone number?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 05:21:43 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2021, 04:25:55 PM »
The car has been painted in the cowl area, but I have looked for overspray up in that area.  I have not done any destructive paint checking (removing layers of paint to see).  As I don't have the permission of the owner to go that far.  He would like to see what Jerry says about the Tag. 

I am emailing back and forth with Jerry now, so hopefully we can figure this Tag out.

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2021, 05:21:18 PM »
BTW this car was for sale for $15k in 2008, described as ďimmaculateĒ. Didnít list the color though.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2021, 06:31:38 PM »
Do you know where I can find the listing for it then?  Do you have more info on who was listing it?

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2021, 08:39:43 PM »
Do you know where I can find the listing for it then?  Do you have more info on who was listing it?

Remember, this is from 2008.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Z282NV

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2021, 10:59:33 PM »
$15,000 for (a black 10-10 ??) Z28 in 2008 was cheap. I wish I would have seen this then. I was looking at a garnet red RSZ28 in 2004 and he wanted $42,000.
Joe
69 Camaro

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2021, 12:57:26 AM »
$15,000 for (a black 10-10 ??) Z28 in 2008 was cheap. I wish I would have seen this then. I was looking at a garnet red RSZ28 in 2004 and he wanted $42,000.

There is nothing in the add that said it was black.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2021, 06:09:18 AM »

Remember, this is from 2008.

Thank you, yes the phone is disconnected. But the email address does not kick back, so who knows. We will see if they answer my email?  They were advertising a few vehicles from that number in 2008 in Ohio.

68 Ragtop

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2021, 05:22:58 PM »
This car is suspect.
The tag has been flagged as reproduction by the experts and I can see at least 3 things on it that do not correspond with known good tags from that time frame. Can't tell you what they are, sorry.
The M21 transmission is not that rare, it's the M22 that is.
The date codes are way to wide for this time frame.
Restamps and reproduction tags are rampant in this industry, buyer beware.
The 2008 advertisement was either way way underpriced for a matching drivetrain real X77 tag Z/28 (doubtful if seller had multiple cars), or it was a plain jane car with Z/28 tags (common).
Don't get burned on suspect cars. If you can't get an in person recognized Camaro expert opinion, pass on it or be willing to take a loss.

firstgenaddict

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2021, 06:38:42 PM »

As an aside... the Ferrari dealer in Canada who purchased N633599 from Lloyd told me that he called Macneish and told him he bought a Black 69 RS/Z... first words out of Jerry's mouth were "It's fake" he said "not likely as you certified it and it has original paint"
Jerry replied WHICH car?
Then said, "I didn't know Lloyd was selling it"

Within the art and collectibles markets there is a formula for price depression given the introduction of fakes into the market.
There are so many fake black cars that when they begin to satisfy any of the demand because the buyers believe they are real, then at that point the fakes depress the price of REAL black cars due to there being fewer buyers to drive up prices of real cars.

If you wanted to get the best deal on a real black car introducing 10 fakes into the market will satisfy some of the demand and allow the acquisition of a real one at a lower price.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

Design Drive Motors

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2021, 08:59:03 PM »
This car is suspect.
The tag has been flagged as reproduction by the experts and I can see at least 3 things on it that do not correspond with known good tags from that time frame. Can't tell you what they are, sorry.
The M21 transmission is not that rare, it's the M22 that is.
The date codes are way to wide for this time frame.
Restamps and reproduction tags are rampant in this industry, buyer beware.
The 2008 advertisement was either way way underpriced for a matching drivetrain real X77 tag Z/28 (doubtful if seller had multiple cars), or it was a plain jane car with Z/28 tags (common).
Don't get burned on suspect cars. If you can't get an in person recognized Camaro expert opinion, pass on it or be willing to take a loss.

I understand, and I don't have the expertise to determine this, that is why I am reaching out here.  That's why I have reached out to experts knowing the Transmission verifies an original stamped VIN motor.  I am still working on this. 

With all due respect, I can't call it a fake if I don't have proof that it is.  There is as real a possibility that flagging something as a fake, drops a price, then verifying it as real after the fact gives said buyer a real advantage in suddenly being able to sell it as real.

I have verified it to be an original stamped body, with an original stamped m21 trans behind an original stamped 302 serial number that may or may not have an original stamped engine assembly stamp. 

So in order to verify the original engine, if I can't trust the engine assembly stamp, I have to look at casting date codes, and serial numbers of the transmission.  Although the M21 may not be as rare, it did only come with a big block or a 302 according to the research done on:
http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#4speed

"The close-ratio M21 was available only with the SS396/350 hp (L34) engine and the solid lifter engines (Z28, L78, and COPO)." 

This engine was Date coded April 1 1969, and the Build date of the car finishes on April 23 1969 (according to muscle car docs).  The assembly stamp says the engine was built on April 7, which if the stamp is correct or not, still lines up with the consistency of when engines were cast and built according to:
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#BlockCast 

"The block casting date must always be before the engine assembly date and it is usually very close to engine assembly date. Blocks have been found that have been cast and assembled in the same day, but that is not normative. There are also blocks that have been cast and then assembled months later; again, that is not normative.
The engine assembly date must always be before the vehicle (not body) assembly date. The engine assembly date almost always is before the Fisher Body cowl tag date. In the unusual case it is later (since the Fisher Body calendar does not always line up with the normal calendar), it should be within a week of the body. Most engine assembly dates are less than 30 days before the vehicle build. Some engine assembly dates can be 30-90 days before vehicle build with the odd exception being >90 days." 

This engine was Cast 22 days before the car was completed, the engine was built 16 days before the car was completed, and the body started its build in the 3rd week of April, as you know, the tag does not say what day.  Then the car was completed April 23, in the 4th week of April, so please tell me how dates are way to far off, I just don't see it.

http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#a

"This is composed of two digits (01 thru 12 corresponding to each month of the year) and a letter (A thru E corresponding to the week of the month) and indicates when the assembly of the body was started"

If I am missing something here (most research done on this site) then please inform me.  I can't go back in time.  No one will say why this tag is bad, I have tried to prove this car out to the best of my abilities, and therefore I have only a few conclusions left:

-The car is a real Black Z28, and people here just cant believe it, as these cars should be scrutinized to the max.
-Someone here wants this car, knows its original, and wants it to be underbid so they can turn a profit on it.
-The car is an original Z28, but may not have a correct Tag on it, either someone wanted to change the color, or the interior.
-Someone here built that car, and knows the secrets of it, but in order to say, would hang themselves in doing so.
-The secrets of the Tag are so deep that they can not be shared here on line, in which case there is no proof of said secrets, and therefore I cant accurately represent such a car to be a fake unless someone comes forward with definitive proof of it, but it still proves out to be a Z28 none the less.  In which case, the price as advertised by my client is Accurate. (an original black Z28 may go for more than they are asking)

However, please, add to my speculation if I am off here, I am open to options that are proven or reasonable.  Either come with proof, or take the VIN off this thread please.

Seeing as the car was advertised in 2008 by a person who is unknown, with 2 different phone numbers for ads on the same car at the time, 937-314-4659 , and 786-738-6903.(and a gmail address that seems to be not responding to), who knows why they were "selling" it for $15,000.  I had a client just buy a car for $65,000.  The previous owner spent $200,000 on the car getting it up to racing spec in the last couple of years, and just needed to sell it quick.  I have had clients buy cars for so cheep simply because the person selling had no clue of the market.  I have checked out ads for clients on cars with listed VINs and pictures, and they were all scams.  There are lots of reasons a car can be advertised for less than its value.  Only goodsinlife knows why they advertised this car, with this VIN.  Everything else is speculation.

As an aside... the Ferrari dealer in Canada who purchased N633599 from Lloyd told me that he called Macneish and told him he bought a Black 69 RS/Z... first words out of Jerry's mouth were "It's fake" he said "not likely as you certified it and it has original paint"
Jerry replied WHICH car?
Then said, "I didn't know Lloyd was selling it"

Within the art and collectibles markets there is a formula for price depression given the introduction of fakes into the market.
There are so many fake black cars that when they begin to satisfy any of the demand because the buyers believe they are real, then at that point the fakes depress the price of REAL black cars due to there being fewer buyers to drive up prices of real cars.

If you wanted to get the best deal on a real black car introducing 10 fakes into the market will satisfy some of the demand and allow the acquisition of a real one at a lower price.

I appreciate all that is said.  Those are true economics.  And its a real shame that people do such things.  Why cant we just call a spade a spade, and leave it at that.  I know people are hard up for money, I know people are greedy, but I also know not all people are that way.  I hope you all see I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes here, I am trying my hardest to get to the bottom of this.

MO

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2021, 01:38:02 AM »
Design Drive Motors, I for one, and I'm sure there are others, appreciate that you are trying your best to validate this car. I think the only way you are going to get a resolution is to have a known and respected Camaro aficionado inspect it. If it is legit, great. If not, and they find the trim tag suspect, don't be surprised if they don't reveal the differences. You have to understand that with that information, someone could make a better fake. And no disrespect, but even you. The other option is to build your own data base and learn the discrepancies for yourself. That likely will take quite some time though. I've been comparing stamps and tags for 15+ years and still don't consider myself a pro at it. Again, kudos to you for coming on here, doing the research and asking questions and for help.

Best of luck!

bcmiller

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2021, 02:10:23 AM »
If you would like my opinion on the engine stamping, send a good clear high resolution photo of the block ďpadĒ under the alternator area.  I have not seen it.

Itís your opinion that the car is real until proven fake. But thatís not the case.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 04:43:43 AM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

67conv6cyl

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2021, 02:50:31 AM »
I sincerely hope that someone here can help you, and a least privately send you a message telling you why itís believed to be a fake tag.

Many people on this forum really know what they are looking at.
Also they have a data base to back up what they know.
I have even seen before where itís known that a certain car (that is known of) has the same body tag number as another car proving one car is fake.
I am not saying thatís the case here, Iím just saying there are ways to tell by using the data base.

I for one think you are representing a beautiful car and really appreciate the fact that you are trying to verify it.
It shows great integrity on your part.

sabino56

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Re: Interesting 1969 Z28
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2021, 04:41:33 PM »
Iíve been following discussion - really fascinating and interesting.  I think itís great that so many are willing to share your knowledge / opinions and DDM is attempting to accurately represent the car.  Until now, there has been nothing for which I could offer an opinion or advice. 

Commenting on the suggestion that the car should be assumed real until proven to be a fake.

In collectibles, whether baseball cards, art, cars, etc. , when there are many more fakes than real items the value comes from proving the item is real - not asserting something is real until proven fake.  Itís why provenance is so valuable in the art world - where sometimes even experts canít distinguish brush strokes of masters vs fakers.   

My opinion, if the seller of the car wants top dollar itís their responsibility to do the work and/or pay for the provenance.  This isnít like a court of law where the jury is required to find the item real unless proven false.   Of course, if provenance isnít or canít be provided then the seller chooses how to represent the car and the community chooses how to judge the car - essentially a community based validation/invalidation of the provenance offered.  Then itís up to the market to decide and buyerís job to protect themselves.