Author Topic: Hello. I have a November 1969 Production Date Canadian Car info requested  (Read 21192 times)

cook_dw

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ko-lek-tor

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2 things that stand out to me on that yellow Z.
1) most N56**** I encounter are 72 paint or Hug. Orange. This gives some date idea when the orange ordered cars ended.
2) The production date 12/27 makes me wonder if this is a 12C car. And Since this car is approximately 2000 past my 12B, I wonder if an accurate date of production could be extrapolated?
Bentley to friends :1969 SS/RS 396 owned 79
1969 SS 350 (sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. owned since 85
1967 302 4 spd 5.13

william

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So what would be the most rare options on it? Engine block heater?  Additional coolant?  Any way to find out how many units were released with X options?


No, there isn't. Chevy published production only by discrete option. Options included with other equipment were not counted. For example, only 116 Camaros were ordered with CE1 Headlight Washer. CE1 was included on each of the 37,773 Rally-Sports as standard equipment. So, not rare. Combinations of options would be complicated.

In the case of N711022, there are a few rare options. Only 2,117 M22s installed in '69 Camaros. 2,124 K05 engine block heaters. Seems surprising but a factory-installed ZL2 hood is actually fairly rare. 10,026 sold but about 4,100 were installed on Z10s & Z11s as a mandatory option. Only about 5,926 installed as an elective option.

L78 engine production has been mis-stated for decades. The official number is 4,889 but since COPO build records list the L78 engine, it is not accurate. There were 69 ZL1s and 997 L72 COPO Camaros built so the actual L78 total is 3,823.

As for the orange interior, about 4,200 produced. 3,675 were Pace Car replicas where it was a mandatory option. Having owned two Z/28s with orange interiors, I can attest to the fact that it [and yellow] are not for everyone. Probably why they were so rare.

The doc contains some internal gibberish that would not appear on the window sticker and other docs: F62 G32 J50 J52 V48 ZK8 ZL3 ZQ7.

The ship date is not the final-assembly date. Based on other data, the car was completed on or about November 6, 1969.
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Kelley W King

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William, you never cease to enlighten me. The 4889 for L78,s is what I always believed. For automatics 10% or 489 is what I thought. What is your thought on L78 auto?
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

william

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It is a convoluted calculation based in part on Muncie 4-speed production. I come up with 16.6% or 635 installations. Probably close as total L72 engine production was 1,015 with 193 [19%] being MO [auto] code. Unknowns are L78/MC1 [std. trans] and M20 which was both Saginaw and Muncie.

BTW Chevy muffed the M21 production number of 26,501. 97% of L34, L78, Z/28 and COPO production would have had to have it to get there. Correct M21 production total is likely 15,880.
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william

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2 things that stand out to me on that yellow Z.
1) most N56**** I encounter are 72 paint or Hug. Orange. This gives some date idea when the orange ordered cars ended.
2) The production date 12/27 makes me wonder if this is a 12C car. And Since this car is approximately 2000 past my 12B, I wonder if an accurate date of production could be extrapolated?

I have no idea what you are trying to establish relative to Hugger Orange. It was an RPO color for the entire production run. Paint color was a factor in scheduling production; it was a very popular color [est 12%] and it is likely a booth was dedicated to it. I checked our db; most colors are well-represented for the month of December ’68. Orange is the most common followed closely by Fathom Green and Le Mans Blue. It is a very small sample; there were 10,000 N56xxxx cars built.

The doc states 12/27 as the ship date. N565105 was final-assembled on or about December 20, 1968. It is ‘on or about’ because they were not built in VIN order.


« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:15:35 PM by william »
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mikea

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wow wow WOW.  WILLIAM !!  hahahaha good stuff man.  I like how you work numbers and your best guesses seem extremely well thought out based on available FACT.  Im-pressive sir.  I have so many questions.  How do I extrapolate the number of options like you are?  Where is the data?  Awesome dude.  Awesome.

I LOVE that you use the updated COPO numbers and other factual references.  My friend had an old book, that lists end of production 22 before his VIN.  In a very well respected camaro book by MacNeish.  He showed me the page.  That was wrong.  Why he thought she was 22 AFTER production.  The book said 711000 was end of line.  So I told him, for the first time.  That she was actually about 900 before the end of the run, and left him a printout of your data stating what I believe, the accurate number.  That was a bit of a downer but then when he showed me the option list.  And gave me the history (you should HEAR what happened to the engine over a 10 year period) on the ownership from the time she was bought at the dealership WAYYYY up north..even for up here.   N711022 was sold at the same time with a similar car, with a smaller engine, that was later raced and became very famous up here. I have all the associated names, and, someone did a story on the dealership and them selling them, so there is documentation and research already done in that area.  Sweet.  They BOTH sat on the lot for over four months. Dead of fkin winter up here lol. One was originally bought by a trapper (yup lives in the cold friggin words no power no running water STILL to this day) and there is a good story behind how she came clear across Canada, from British Columbia, to Newfoundland.  Five documented owners and my buddy has had her a while. 

More later.  Deadly thanks fellas.  The engine pad is not original, the interior houndstooth has been replaced, and there is something else that he has not been able to fine.  Not a big thing though.  He has the aluminum head but as she didn't come with it, he did not ever consider installing.  He LOL told me about one that they scrapped and buried YEARS ago... and back then fellas didn't keep the tags.  Thanks for the info!!  I'll send pics of the next 69 he has now in a sec.  Shes the weapon.

mikea

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Thanks for the option sheet Cook !!!

mikea

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He used to drag race this one.  She got to 10.001.  Never could get her under haha.  Street and shows now but he drives her a fair bit.  He has a switch, and it separates the friggin exhaust header into a side pipe somehow.  You should hear here, even when switching the modes.  I've never heard anything remotely like it and I've been running race pipes for years.  She is wicked.

mikea

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So the pictures don't seem to be doing much for you guys, so I will pose some questions...And yes, I went through the Ask-CRG archives first. (Very specific entries un-indexed; should break them down into categories so we don't have to wade through so much)

What entailed the V48 special antifreeze? any hardware changes? Why no numbers? Can I see other sheets with that code somewhere? Any units have it, that were not destined for Canada?

Was the M22 muncie HD 4-speed the one used with the 427?  It was (pretty much) a COPO unit order correct? Rockcrusher? What do you have similar in the database? With the muncie? Especially non-COPO cars?

That hood.  It's a special one for sure.  LOVE the page w the info on the Cowl hood. Loved the information on the special interiors...where the woodgrains are, and what parts, depending on option. Excellent job figuring all that out and documenting it so well. (711022 has them all I think!)

I would love to have more data on the K05 Engine Block Heater Option.  Not every Canadian destined car had one obviously.  So were there US cars with them optioned (of the 2124) as well?

What is the breakdown of orange exterior's, orange interiors (I’ll settle for number of entries of this orangeorange colour combo in database besides 711022).  Would love to know how many orange black, orange orange, white orange?   Can someone show me some pics of other non-pace SSRS396's w orange houndstooth? Not even the orange orange, just w the orange interior.

How many cars (in your esteemed opinions until I can access this wonderful data) (relative I know) are similar to N711022?  If I were to be specific I would like to see everything registered, that was built in that two or three week period at Norwood, up to the end of production, especially the last 1500 or so car range (gives me both sides of her.)  I'd need that to make my inferences. How many entries are even in your database for this end of production range?

Good writeup on the Fisher tags.  It all makes more sense now. Related (sorta) correction for you? From your pacecar article ----
The Norwood cars will also have Z11 stamped on the cowl tag. The LA cars were not stamped with Z11 on the tag, but the colors codes on the tag confirm that it is a pace car "since no other Camaro convertible received houndstooth interior."
--(Not true. There was one. A Z28 Convertible w orange houndstooth was built for one of the GM execs.  He used it as a daily driver for a bit.)

Where do I find examples of Canadian build sheets; American build sheets, all sheets!!?? Yenko has a nice database. Does one exist for SSRS396’s?

"Any SS Camaro, especially when combined with the RS package, and/or with an original big-block motor, is also desired."  You guys say...  Is this a desirable car?  To me, that would be subjective… but I would really like to hear your opinion and answer all the same. 

I will also ask then, is this a rare car? And could you try to quantify that for me William please? Your prior information helped immensely.  But I'd like more! How does she rate among her peers of 396SSRS’ w M22 Muncies, is my bottom line question.  And how many more are out there?

Great stuff guys.  Great stuff.  You handle your data and information very well.  I used to work for IBM in Business Analytics and Optimization wish everyone worked it like you do. Heading back to my buddies with all the 69's this weekend.  I’ll get more pics.  Want anything on the yellow one?  I’ll get the interior of 711022 for you as well. And I can send the high res via email to someone but I need an email address.  The system won’t give it to me.

Thanks in advance for your great answers to my questions!!

ZLP955

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^ That is the longest post I've seen!
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA.
AHRA Formula Stock at Lions Dragstrip, NHRA E/MP at Pomona Raceway

bcmiller

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Yes it’s a very long post. Way too many questions. Where do you get your energy and enthusiasm? Are you going to buy one of these cars?

Special antifreeze (W84) and extra fuel (V48) are Canadian only options. Engine block heaters are typically on Canadian (some) and far northern states cars like ND.  Rare doesn’t necessarily mean valuable.

M22 was only available with L72, L78 or Z28 in 1969 - but optional, not required.

No way to know exactly how many similar cars were produced or how many are out there today.

Cars don’t have to be referred to as “she”, the word “it” works just fine.

Oh and btw, there was never a 1969 Z28 convertible. There was one 1968 Z28 convertible built for GM Executive Pete Estes. That’s the one and only 67-69 Z28 convertible.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:28:47 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

68 Ragtop

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All the Canadian cars got extra fuel and anti freeze, so not rare or valuable. Engine block heater is somewhat rare, but not valuable.

Orange on orange is pretty rare, but not everyone's taste. 50 years later on a special car, it probably adds value, but back then was pretty garish.

The rare and valuable options on this car are the drive train. L78/M22 with 4.10 posi. That along with RS, cowl hood, and a few more comfort options make it pretty rare. I know you are a Ford guy, and Ford guys use the Marti report to narrow down their cars to 1 of so many cars. Sometimes as low as one of one. This may be a one of one car, but so were many other cars back then when you could select from 100's of options.

It's a super nice car that has been restored some what incorrectly (minor stuff). It is also missing the engine pad codes and original transmission, otherwise it would be a six figure car.

bcmiller

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To determine value - you need to look at what it WAS and what it is NOW.

Engine questionable if original - since it’s decked - so more checking needed on that. M22 being gone not unusual but doesn’t add anything since it’s gone.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:44:33 PM by bcmiller »
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

jdv69z

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How do the ZL1's and COPO's figure in the the ZL2 total? Are they part of the 10,026 sold? If so then would you add together Z10's, Z11's, ZL1's and COPO's and then subtract from the 10,026 number to get the total ZL2's ordered for all other cars?
Jimmy V.