Hello. I have a November 1969 Production Date Canadian Car info requested

[mikea]

Hello Gents.

First of all let me commend you on your research articles, with the inline links.  Very informative, well written, and got me really, really curious.  A friend showed me his car the other day, said it was quite rare.  How rare I thought.  So I had a look.

Here is what I have. 
vin: 124379N711022
trim 720 or hd
paint: 72 hugger
plant:norwood
ship date: nov 11,1969 (yup)
model: 12437 sc
engine:396
dealer: 82121

I know she has the fibre optics and pretty sure she has the disc brakes.  I only had time to have a quick chat but he mentioned COPA and Yenko.  Also something about the interior not supposed to come with this model?  I will continue to peruse your research but wanted to know what you all thought!  How rare is it?  What questions do I ask and what do I look for when I go look at it again in a couple days?  She has a realllllly late build date... And has wierd options haha.  It's all quite cool the more digging I do.  Thanks again!

Mike

[bcmiller]

You have a pic of the tag on the firewall?

[bcmiller]

GM of Canada will be able to tell you about everything you need to know about the car when it was new.

[KurtS]

That interior was available on any coupe.
All 69 SS's had discs. It doesn't have fiber optics. Which 396? You are obviously looking at the GM of Canada doc - it will list all the options.

[mikea]

The U46 vigilite lamp monitors (fibre optic) and the JL8 brakes. 

I can get the tags yes.  Anything else I should look for in terms of options?

Thanks!

[bcmiller]

Are you sure on the JL8?

[KurtS]

Way too late for JL8.  And U46 would have the monitors visible on the fenders.

If those are on the sheet, I question the sheet. Get a copy/picture of the sheet.

[bcmiller]

That’s why I asked?

I don’t like to “lead the witness”.

[mikea]

They were special brakes he said, normally unavailable I think.  How can I tell for sure?  He said Yenko as well. This car is special in ways he told me (all the lingo did not sink in at the time) and seems to have come off the line after GM said they stopped.  She was built in a very non standard way from what I understood from my quick conversation with him, something about pace car options.  Again I'm going back there to get more information and pictures, so tell me what to look for and take pics of, and I will let you know.  I will be able to give an educated post after I speak with the owner again on Tuesday or Wednesday.  Sorry for the uncertainty. He has all the paperwork and is going to show me.  Hopefully the build sheet is part of that!! Thanks!

[KurtS]

Sounds like lots of BS.
A pic of the tag and the GM of Canada doc will tell us a lot!

[69Z28-RS]

...That interior was available on any coupe.
...

Only after about mid-year as the orange and yellow houndstooth interiors were introduced in the spring? (not sure about exact month - maybe april or may?)..

And obviously the car was too late for the JL8 factory installation, but the dealership *could* have installed a service duty disk brake rear for the original buyer (for an extra $1000 or so)...

Also sounds like the owner isn't aware of the extended production for the '69 Camaro...

[mikea]

Fellas there is no BS going on here. I just asked for assistance. I stated I did not have all the details yet. I will go and get the trim tag and have requested the sheet from GM Canada. I would like to know what to check on the car to determine her options. I believe there was dealer work done after she was built. Again i will find out more for you tomorrow. She is all original with everything matching. There are only two cars in your registry built later than this one. And only 900 off the line after this one. By my (admittedly little) knowledge and research she seems like one of the last 69s to be built ans survive intact.  I expected more enthusiasm versus skepticism.  Anyway thank you and please let me know what to take pic of so you can best advise me.  Mike

[bcmiller]

Pics. Trim tag on the cowl, VIN tag on the dash, engine pad stamps (in front of the passenger side cylinder head), stamp on transmission (passenger side, middle where main case and tail housing meet), axle stamp (front edge of passenger side axle tube), GM of Canada document, any dealer paperwork including the POP.

Best to email pics to Kurt.

[KurtS]

Fellas there is no BS going on here. There are only two cars in your registry built later than this one.

I was saying the seller was providing the BS / misstatements.
Lot more than two cars in the database after this one, btw.
The engine pad picture can be hard to get, but will tell us if it's real.

[william]

The CRG does not inspect, appraise or certify anything. However, our core members have a tremendous amount of experience with 1st Gen Camaros. Like everyone else, we are free to make unsolicited observations about questionable claims. I have been challenging some incredible claims on our site for years under the heading Caveat Emptor: swapped VIN and body tags, fake tags, re-bodied cars, re-stamped drivetrains, outright lies.

In the case of this car, you posted information and stated: I will continue to peruse your research but wanted to know what you all thought!

Some very knowledgeable people saw red flags immediately and said so. You bitched about it:

I expected more enthusiasm versus skepticism.

When you ask for opinions, be prepared for the unvarnished truth. We are here to tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Would you rather find out after you buy it?

The car in question may be a rare combination of options: SS-RS, 396, special front bumper, orange interior. That is significant only if it was built that way. There are several shops that will build whatever you want and slap a reproduction body tag on it. As noted, the JL8 brakes and U46 claims immediately come into question. 

The car has obviously been restored. The left rear wheel well appears to be orange; they were not body color in production. Also, the default stripe color for 72-72 paint was white, not black. Anything can be done during the course of a rotisserie restoration.

So sit back and ponder your free assessment. 

[william]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-350-V8/153129095828?hash=item23a7349294:g:Z-4AAOSwZjNbaITi&vxp=mtr

Listed on ebay a few minutes ago: 124379N711673. Built on the last day of production, November 7, 1969. N711022 was likely built November 6, 1969.

[mikea]

William! LOL.  Thank you sir for your frankness.  People are hard on each other in my local car forums as well.  Guys I cannot afford to buy this car if it is worth 5K or 50K.  I'm writing a story about it, and doing him a favour.  Trying to illustrate why the 1969 Camaro, and this one in particular; are very special.  I'm racing in Targa Newfoundland in September and need some work done on my car which will drive my non-profit efforts in the smaller communities.  The owner has I believe has five 1969 Camaros.  Wicked cars.  Many heavily modified but not this one.  If he says she is special, I truly believe it.  I will send more pics. And can't WAIT to look and hear what is special about those brakes!!! I scanned many forums for information, and at the end of the lines, they all led here.  I choose where I get my information and you guys know your stuff.  I will try to look especially hard on areas of the camaro where people are known to BS.  Thanks again william lol.  You know your stuff guys.  I'm a Ford guy (promised myself I would not say that) and my 15 year old Mustang needs parts to enter a race.  And I'm writing a story for a buddy in hopes he will help me fix her up.  It will be a good story, I'll post it here when I am done if you like. Thanks in advance for all your help, my silly questions, and unfamiliarity with the netiquette on here. You chevy guys are a hard bunch.  The guy I'm raising money for has cerebral palsy and is a Chevy diehard.  Google Jason Nolan Targa Newfoundland.  He puts his wheelchair in the back of his BEAUTIFUL chevy Nova.  And the fkin thing puts dents from the trunk outside into the nice paint when it rolls around.  Needs a new one. Not much money in these parts for a new chair and a new computer.  So at the end of the day your knowledge and my new (very frigging true) appreciation of this truly exceptional car, will go to good use William.  Gentlemen.  Thanks again.

[mikea]

And the cliffhanger... Since you fellas are all in this with me.   The owner said he has a TON of documentation. DROOL. Haha. I can't wait. 

PS>GM Canada said talk to GM Heritage.  Not really the insight I want.

PSS> My (well to do) cousin has a 2018 ZL1-1LE.  Yep.  About one percent of even gearhead fellas around here know what that means.  But you guys do.  I drove her several times, and my cousin raced her flat out in Targa.  What. A. Machine.  The (ahem) Canadian spoolvalve dampers are WICKED.  She rides best kind.  Better than the magenetorehological whatever the f its called adjustable.  The stock goodyear F1 3R's with the new compound wore out in 1900 Kilometres... HAHAHA.  Michelin Pilot 4S on now. Better for our roads. Once when he hit the brakes...My head went dizzy..Seriously.  Never before in a car has that happened to me.  Onboard gmeter and telemetrics from his inputs and built in car for playback after the race. INCAR or remove the card for computer/camera viewing.. The technology on her is wicked.. You can tune the traction control for a DEGREE of angle the car will let the ass hang out.  And it works wicked.  You guys may not appreciate all that stuff but I sorta like the old and the new.  Thanks again. 

[68 Ragtop]

And the cliffhanger... Since you fellas are all in this with me.   The owner said he has a TON of documentation. DROOL. Haha. I can't wait. 

PS>GM Canada said talk to GM Heritage.  Not really the insight I want.

So you are a Ford guy, that's OK. Perhaps you don't know that GM in the USA did not keep the build records on these cars so there is no way to check with them on the authenticity. Because of that, many cars  are rebuilt with options added and fake paperwork created.

Canadian built and cars imported new and sold in Canada are a different story. GM Canada did save the information and it is available from Vintage Vehicle Services. You titled this thread as Canadian Car, but have not really specified what you mean by that. Is the car in Canada now? Was it originally sold new in Canada? There are plenty of old muscle cars imported into Canada, and those will not have records. Perhaps that is what you have here. Lets see what paperwork the owner has on the car.

Lastly, I applaud you for coming here to fact check the car before writing an article about it. So many times magazines print what ever the owner tells them in order to sell more magazines or web hits. There are also many old tales about these cars that get told and retold and embellished along the way. Looking forward to seeing more about this car. Maybe there is something special about it. Maybe not.

https://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/

[mikea]

She was built in Norwood, modified somewhere by a USA dealer (I think this is what he said when he started with the Yenko stuff), then shipped to Canada for block heater and sale (I think).  I know he has the records of her since being originally sold up here, in Ft. St. John, British Columbia. at the dealership.  So we should have full records of how the car changed hands after that.  It stayed in Canada yes, and is still here.  Hopefully we will be able to tell from both the records he has, and the visual inspections, how she was built, and what factory/dealer installed options are present.  I HIGHLY doubt she was recreated with fake stuff.  And thanks but I don't have a hundred bucks for a formal search.  Hopefully he has those original documents and we will go from there!

And the story of how I became a Ford fan... Moved to Pittsburgh many years ago GO STEELERS and I was just down from Canada, new job, no credit.. And I wanted a Camaro/TransAM.  Went to the dealership and a fully decked out 99 TransAM was about 700 bucks a month.   I could not afford it.  So down the street I went to Ford, and sat in a black Mustang.  450 the guy said. And I've been driving a Mustang GT of some sort, since that day in 1999. But only because I could not afford the camaro.  True story!

Thanks fellas.  Going to see the car TONIGHT woohooo!  If she has the JL8 brakes I'm posting immediately haha.  Would LOVE to find something that surprises you experts from our cold big Canadian (mostly rusted) collections!

[bcmiller]

Going to need a better pic than what you posted. 

[cook_dw]

If you don't mind could you submit the rest of this paperwork?

If you have trouble posting you can email it to me and I can post it.


cook_dw"at"hotmail.com


replace "at" with @

[mikea]

I was sent that picture.  I will take more tonight with my camera when I am there.  Look for an update later tonight or tomorrow! Thanks for the offers to help.  Your 200K/500K limits for photos are a little tedious but I will manage!  Thanks!

[bcmiller]

You can email pics to KurtS or to me.

[68 Ragtop]

That is the document you get from VVS, so no need for you to spend any money if you are not buying the car.

Looks pretty cool so far, 396/375 and orange/orange is pretty rare.

[69Z28-RS]

I was sent that picture.  I will take more tonight with my camera when I am there.  Look for an update later tonight or tomorrow! Thanks for the offers to help.  Your 200K/500K limits for photos are a little tedious but I will manage!  Thanks!

To meet the image size requirements, I suggest first using the standard PAINT program to clip out just the portion of the image you desire, and then use a program such as  Light Image Resizer to reduce the data volume (with little loss of information).  This program is free for personal use and is very flexible to you can tailor it (to achieve the results required)...

[bcmiller]

Good advice Gary! I might even try to sticky that post or something very similar.  For now I added it into Kurt’s pic posting thread. 

[mikea]

She didn't have the JL8 brakes.  But did have some interesting options!  Option sheet attached. Thoughts?  All tags match on her except for the transmission.

[69Z28-RS]

The only 'bad' thing I see is that the cowl plate has been SANDED....  please tell them NOT to do that again (if they are the ones who did it).

also appeared the car was painted before..   but a very nice car with a great list of options.. 

[mikea]

So what would be the most rare options on it? Engine block heater?  Additional coolant?  Any way to find out how many units were released with X options? Anything you guys can tell me?  All the pics of other tags need to be retrieved from his computer.  He has providence from the dealership through all the owners until him.   At one point he's owned 8 69's at a time.  Currently has 4.

He has a 69 Z28 as well, beautiful car. But it's not the matching engine.  I'll post her sheet too.  Glad Canada has these records.

Thanks,

Mike .

[cook_dw]

http://www.camaros.org/pdf/options.pdf

[ko-lek-tor]

2 things that stand out to me on that yellow Z.
1) most N56**** I encounter are 72 paint or Hug. Orange. This gives some date idea when the orange ordered cars ended.
2) The production date 12/27 makes me wonder if this is a 12C car. And Since this car is approximately 2000 past my 12B, I wonder if an accurate date of production could be extrapolated?

[william]

So what would be the most rare options on it? Engine block heater?  Additional coolant?  Any way to find out how many units were released with X options?

No, there isn't. Chevy published production only by discrete option. Options included with other equipment were not counted. For example, only 116 Camaros were ordered with CE1 Headlight Washer. CE1 was included on each of the 37,773 Rally-Sports as standard equipment. So, not rare. Combinations of options would be complicated.

In the case of N711022, there are a few rare options. Only 2,117 M22s installed in '69 Camaros. 2,124 K05 engine block heaters. Seems surprising but a factory-installed ZL2 hood is actually fairly rare. 10,026 sold but about 4,100 were installed on Z10s & Z11s as a mandatory option. Only about 5,926 installed as an elective option.

L78 engine production has been mis-stated for decades. The official number is 4,889 but since COPO build records list the L78 engine, it is not accurate. There were 69 ZL1s and 997 L72 COPO Camaros built so the actual L78 total is 3,823.

As for the orange interior, about 4,200 produced. 3,675 were Pace Car replicas where it was a mandatory option. Having owned two Z/28s with orange interiors, I can attest to the fact that it [and yellow] are not for everyone. Probably why they were so rare.

The doc contains some internal gibberish that would not appear on the window sticker and other docs: F62 G32 J50 J52 V48 ZK8 ZL3 ZQ7.

The ship date is not the final-assembly date. Based on other data, the car was completed on or about November 6, 1969.

[Kelley W King]

William, you never cease to enlighten me. The 4889 for L78,s is what I always believed. For automatics 10% or 489 is what I thought. What is your thought on L78 auto?

[william]

It is a convoluted calculation based in part on Muncie 4-speed production. I come up with 16.6% or 635 installations. Probably close as total L72 engine production was 1,015 with 193 [19%] being MO [auto] code. Unknowns are L78/MC1 [std. trans] and M20 which was both Saginaw and Muncie.

BTW Chevy muffed the M21 production number of 26,501. 97% of L34, L78, Z/28 and COPO production would have had to have it to get there. Correct M21 production total is likely 15,880.

[william]

2 things that stand out to me on that yellow Z.
1) most N56**** I encounter are 72 paint or Hug. Orange. This gives some date idea when the orange ordered cars ended.
2) The production date 12/27 makes me wonder if this is a 12C car. And Since this car is approximately 2000 past my 12B, I wonder if an accurate date of production could be extrapolated?

I have no idea what you are trying to establish relative to Hugger Orange. It was an RPO color for the entire production run. Paint color was a factor in scheduling production; it was a very popular color [est 12%] and it is likely a booth was dedicated to it. I checked our db; most colors are well-represented for the month of December ’68. Orange is the most common followed closely by Fathom Green and Le Mans Blue. It is a very small sample; there were 10,000 N56xxxx cars built.

The doc states 12/27 as the ship date. N565105 was final-assembled on or about December 20, 1968. It is ‘on or about’ because they were not built in VIN order.

[mikea]

wow wow WOW.  WILLIAM !!  hahahaha good stuff man.  I like how you work numbers and your best guesses seem extremely well thought out based on available FACT.  Im-pressive sir.  I have so many questions.  How do I extrapolate the number of options like you are?  Where is the data?  Awesome dude.  Awesome.

I LOVE that you use the updated COPO numbers and other factual references.  My friend had an old book, that lists end of production 22 before his VIN.  In a very well respected camaro book by MacNeish.  He showed me the page.  That was wrong.  Why he thought she was 22 AFTER production.  The book said 711000 was end of line.  So I told him, for the first time.  That she was actually about 900 before the end of the run, and left him a printout of your data stating what I believe, the accurate number.  That was a bit of a downer but then when he showed me the option list.  And gave me the history (you should HEAR what happened to the engine over a 10 year period) on the ownership from the time she was bought at the dealership WAYYYY up north..even for up here.   N711022 was sold at the same time with a similar car, with a smaller engine, that was later raced and became very famous up here. I have all the associated names, and, someone did a story on the dealership and them selling them, so there is documentation and research already done in that area.  Sweet.  They BOTH sat on the lot for over four months. Dead of fkin winter up here lol. One was originally bought by a trapper (yup lives in the cold friggin words no power no running water STILL to this day) and there is a good story behind how she came clear across Canada, from British Columbia, to Newfoundland.  Five documented owners and my buddy has had her a while. 

More later.  Deadly thanks fellas.  The engine pad is not original, the interior houndstooth has been replaced, and there is something else that he has not been able to fine.  Not a big thing though.  He has the aluminum head but as she didn't come with it, he did not ever consider installing.  He LOL told me about one that they scrapped and buried YEARS ago... and back then fellas didn't keep the tags.  Thanks for the info!!  I'll send pics of the next 69 he has now in a sec.  Shes the weapon.

[mikea]

Thanks for the option sheet Cook !!!

[mikea]

He used to drag race this one.  She got to 10.001.  Never could get her under haha.  Street and shows now but he drives her a fair bit.  He has a switch, and it separates the friggin exhaust header into a side pipe somehow.  You should hear here, even when switching the modes.  I've never heard anything remotely like it and I've been running race pipes for years.  She is wicked.

[mikea]

So the pictures don't seem to be doing much for you guys, so I will pose some questions...And yes, I went through the Ask-CRG archives first. (Very specific entries un-indexed; should break them down into categories so we don't have to wade through so much)

What entailed the V48 special antifreeze? any hardware changes? Why no numbers? Can I see other sheets with that code somewhere? Any units have it, that were not destined for Canada?

Was the M22 muncie HD 4-speed the one used with the 427?  It was (pretty much) a COPO unit order correct? Rockcrusher? What do you have similar in the database? With the muncie? Especially non-COPO cars?

That hood.  It's a special one for sure.  LOVE the page w the info on the Cowl hood. Loved the information on the special interiors...where the woodgrains are, and what parts, depending on option. Excellent job figuring all that out and documenting it so well. (711022 has them all I think!)

I would love to have more data on the K05 Engine Block Heater Option.  Not every Canadian destined car had one obviously.  So were there US cars with them optioned (of the 2124) as well?

What is the breakdown of orange exterior's, orange interiors (I’ll settle for number of entries of this orangeorange colour combo in database besides 711022).  Would love to know how many orange black, orange orange, white orange?   Can someone show me some pics of other non-pace SSRS396's w orange houndstooth? Not even the orange orange, just w the orange interior.

How many cars (in your esteemed opinions until I can access this wonderful data) (relative I know) are similar to N711022?  If I were to be specific I would like to see everything registered, that was built in that two or three week period at Norwood, up to the end of production, especially the last 1500 or so car range (gives me both sides of her.)  I'd need that to make my inferences. How many entries are even in your database for this end of production range?

Good writeup on the Fisher tags.  It all makes more sense now. Related (sorta) correction for you? From your pacecar article ----
The Norwood cars will also have Z11 stamped on the cowl tag. The LA cars were not stamped with Z11 on the tag, but the colors codes on the tag confirm that it is a pace car "since no other Camaro convertible received houndstooth interior."
--(Not true. There was one. A Z28 Convertible w orange houndstooth was built for one of the GM execs.  He used it as a daily driver for a bit.)

Where do I find examples of Canadian build sheets; American build sheets, all sheets!!?? Yenko has a nice database. Does one exist for SSRS396’s?

"Any SS Camaro, especially when combined with the RS package, and/or with an original big-block motor, is also desired."  You guys say...  Is this a desirable car?  To me, that would be subjective… but I would really like to hear your opinion and answer all the same. 

I will also ask then, is this a rare car? And could you try to quantify that for me William please? Your prior information helped immensely.  But I'd like more! How does she rate among her peers of 396SSRS’ w M22 Muncies, is my bottom line question.  And how many more are out there?

Great stuff guys.  Great stuff.  You handle your data and information very well.  I used to work for IBM in Business Analytics and Optimization wish everyone worked it like you do. Heading back to my buddies with all the 69's this weekend.  I’ll get more pics.  Want anything on the yellow one?  I’ll get the interior of 711022 for you as well. And I can send the high res via email to someone but I need an email address.  The system won’t give it to me.

Thanks in advance for your great answers to my questions!!

[ZLP955]

^ That is the longest post I've seen!

[bcmiller]

Yes it’s a very long post. Way too many questions. Where do you get your energy and enthusiasm? Are you going to buy one of these cars?

Special antifreeze (W84) and extra fuel (V48) are Canadian only options. Engine block heaters are typically on Canadian (some) and far northern states cars like ND.  Rare doesn’t necessarily mean valuable.

M22 was only available with L72, L78 or Z28 in 1969 - but optional, not required.

No way to know exactly how many similar cars were produced or how many are out there today.

Cars don’t have to be referred to as “she”, the word “it” works just fine.

Oh and btw, there was never a 1969 Z28 convertible. There was one 1968 Z28 convertible built for GM Executive Pete Estes. That’s the one and only 67-69 Z28 convertible.

[68 Ragtop]

All the Canadian cars got extra fuel and anti freeze, so not rare or valuable. Engine block heater is somewhat rare, but not valuable.

Orange on orange is pretty rare, but not everyone's taste. 50 years later on a special car, it probably adds value, but back then was pretty garish.

The rare and valuable options on this car are the drive train. L78/M22 with 4.10 posi. That along with RS, cowl hood, and a few more comfort options make it pretty rare. I know you are a Ford guy, and Ford guys use the Marti report to narrow down their cars to 1 of so many cars. Sometimes as low as one of one. This may be a one of one car, but so were many other cars back then when you could select from 100's of options.

It's a super nice car that has been restored some what incorrectly (minor stuff). It is also missing the engine pad codes and original transmission, otherwise it would be a six figure car.

[bcmiller]

To determine value - you need to look at what it WAS and what it is NOW.

Engine questionable if original - since it’s decked - so more checking needed on that. M22 being gone not unusual but doesn’t add anything since it’s gone.

[jdv69z]

How do the ZL1's and COPO's figure in the the ZL2 total? Are they part of the 10,026 sold? If so then would you add together Z10's, Z11's, ZL1's and COPO's and then subtract from the 10,026 number to get the total ZL2's ordered for all other cars?

[Kelley W King]

Subtract CPO,s ZL1,sZ11,s and Z10,s from total per previous post. Kind of rare considering that they are everywhere.

[bcmiller]

Yes somewhat rare.  But like spoilers, tens of thousands were added over the years.

[jdv69z]

Yup, like my car. Thanks, I thought this was the way to figure the ZL2's. But sometimes an option is included in another option (like headlamp washers) so I wasn't quite certain.

[mikea]

Tonight I am going to check for the front stabilizer bar.  She has the COPO 9737 (Sports Car Conversion Package) options. 

I've never researched a classic car like this before.  Nothing before a 1990 Ford.  I find it fascinating.

I understand some options were within others. But a pattern I am seeing, is the 427 cars were more racers, not cruisers.  Same w Z28. So yes you got a little more horsepower at times but the SSRS396 w comfort and the M22/375hp seems to be best of both worlds, yes?  Orange on orange is bold but I like it.  My buddy likes it.  He's the type of guy if a person walks into his shop and wants something stupid or non-standard or proper for a camaro.  He wont do it.  He will say go elsewhere.  He LOVES these cars.  I'm a Ford guy but fellas, I officially am now a 69 Camaro fan too.  Much thought and love and admiration went into these machines that, were the start of passion and innovation, in many future motorsport arenas.  Way more impressive than the Mustangs of the era.

He has computer data with all the tags, better pics, more stuff that came with the car when he bought it.

And I'm pretty sure there IS a M22 in HER.  But it's not a number's matching.  Everything else, and I mean everything, has matching tags..

What are the small things re restoration?  I mean he has an original battery unfilled, original tires, not on.  Stuff like that maybe.  Please specify so that I can inquire. 

Thanks!

[william]

How do the ZL1's and COPO's figure in the the ZL2 total? Are they part of the 10,026 sold? If so then would you add together Z10's, Z11's, ZL1's and COPO's and then subtract from the 10,026 number to get the total ZL2's ordered for all other cars?

As I noted, only discrete options were counted. The ZL2 Ducted Hood was included with COPOs 9560 & 9561; it is never listed on factory documents for those cars. Not included in the 10,026 total.

COPO 9737 required 9560 or 9561. N711022 was not built with it.
 

[bcmiller]

What’s the engine block casting number and casting date on the L78?

Mount Pearl - looks like a very nice area.

[KurtS]

Mike,
You keep using the word 'COPO'. Just to be clear, this is a regular production car with regular production features - not a COPO.
btw, the firewall was originally black, not body color.

[firstgenaddict]

William, you never cease to enlighten me. The 4889 for L78,s is what I always believed. For automatics 10% or 489 is what I thought. What is your thought on L78 auto?

I thought this had been pretty well established (COPO totals included in L78 because the COPO program was based upon a modfied L78 SS package, with the exceptions list).

L78's delivered after mid April which were equipped with optional performance gear ratios 3.73 or 4.10 included HD cooling - the curved neck radiator (also referred to as the COPO radiator) this increased the charge of the optional gear ratio by 15.xx.  (HD cooling charge VO1)
This also resulted in a different ECL code for G80 on the Window Sticker.

[mikea]

Thanks James.

So got more pics and a little more information.  The owner doesn't want me to post any tags so I will send the couple I was able to get, to Kurt?  What is the email please?  Thanks again fellas.  Story is coming along!!

Mike

[69Z28-RS]

Very nice car, but then I'm a fan or 'Halloween cars'!       Too late production for chambered exhaust... but I might put it on my late car too at some point...

[bcmiller]

Kurt’s email is at the top of the forum page

KurtS2@gmail

[ZLP955]

Are you tempted to go for the matching HO underside too Gary? 

[69Z28-RS]

Are you tempted to go for the matching HO underside too Gary? 

   Nope, I'm gonna leave it the original multicolored scheme.... 

.. although it's lots prettier all in orange... 

[mikea]

Yeah the owner is a bodyman, and has been painting cars for years and years.  When he rebuilt her he painted it that way...how he wanted it.  Were the hugger orange cars called Halloween cars? And the exhaust.  I thought in mid 69 they introduced the NC8 chambered?  So what should be the proper stock SS exhaust on an 11A? 

Pics of what I have are sent to Kurt. 

Thanks again all!!

[69Z28-RS]

Steve Shauger and I both have Orange/Black (exterior and interior) cars; ours are Z28s, and we refer to them as 'halloween cars'..

The chambered exhaust were std on all Z28's at the beginning of the model year (and optional on others?)  After a few months of some states giving owners hassles (who referred the states to GM), then the chambered were relegated to an *option*, that lasted a few months til around May/June '69, then the chambered exhaust were discontinued totally.  Simultaneously, GM went first to the transverse muffler by itself as std for Z28, but then when the chambered was totally discontinued (June?), they added a pair of resonators in front of the transverse muffler as 'std'...

Not sure what happened with the big block cars, but I suspect something similar after the chambered was discontinued in May/June...

[x66 714]

My car came with transverse muffler & chrome tail pipes. No resonators. No place for them either. Header pipe goes from the exh manifold to the pipe that goes over the axle. I've been told that it's not the norm but is still original. 325hp 396 built 8/28/1969....Joe

[william]

No resonators. No place for them either.

Really?

Probably 100,000+ 67-69 Camaros built with the standard dual exhaust system had resonators. Most ZL1s had the standard N10 system; vintage undercarriage pics of #3 show the dual resonator/transverse muffler system. For '69 NC8 [chambered] was initially standard equipment on L34, L78, Z/28 until the 1st recall late November '68. At that time, L34 and L78 reverted to the standard N10 muffler/resonator system. Z/28 switched to the '68 deep-tone muffler/no resonator system until April '69 when the N10 system became standard. As of May 19th, NC8 was discontinued and chromed tailpipes became standard equipment on N10.

All this was documented in Assembly Instruction Manuals and Chevy Tech bulletins.

[mikea]

Wow.  Just read your thread on 1969 M22 breakdown of Quantities. I think I am starting to understand RPOs and then you blow my mind with these underlying ECL code combinations and possible permutations.  FU&K. I agree the data is so complex it would probably be misinterpreted.  However I don't know if that is a good reason not to publish the 'best guesses' and compilations of (extremely) knowledgeable people.  That would be better than simple conjecture without basis on fact.  I know data.  And Mcneish may be the data collection expert... But you forum gurus understand it best. 

SO.  William. What is your best guess on M22's?  For the L78?  There were seven installed in the ZL1.  That leaves 2110.   I would like to know what is your current database spread of M22s across the solid lifter engines?  I didn't realize until recently the M22 was NOT available to the SS396/350, SS396/325 and SS350

I sent more pictures to Kurt.  Not sure if it is enough to convince you fellas but I am extremely confident. She's real, she's pretty much original, and much love and care has been put into her.  He took 8 years restoring her.   The only non-matching part is the M22 which has been replaced properly. The vehicle came to Newfoundland in 1972, he is the fifth owner. We know all the previous owners and can trace the car from original sale. What else should I find out? I will take his word at this point all the remaining tags match.  Are there any verification services ie Mcneish available in Canada?  I will admit I had no idea HOW MANY fakes are out there.  And some don't care.  But we do.

So my end of day question is how to quantify (with available data/best guess) how many Orange - Orange RS SS X 22 D80 396 375 M22's are out there?  Can I say in a document, to all available knowledge inventories, and registries, there isn't another one like N711022 ?) I'm picky about my facts.  And appreciate you all are too.  Appreciate all the blurbs.  You guys know stuff that is not written anywhere.  Period.  Very impressive inferences.  Thanks again.  MA

[69Z28-RS]

MikeA...   

Trying to quantify the numbers of cars which had a particular set of options is IMPOSSIBLE!   You can certainly say that he has a unusual combination of options, but to say 'ONLY ONE' would be conjecture and inaccurate.

[Kelley W King]

I think "one of one ?" is a Ford or Mopar term.

[BULLITT65]

I think "one of one ?" is a Ford or Mopar term.

Well with the Marti report on Fords, you can deffinetly see how rare a car is. And there are some special cars that are 1 of 1.

Mike: With all of the 60's muscle cars and all of the options that were available, you could switch one small option and then have another 1 of 1. With this car being Hugger orange (most popular color) I would say it is likely it is not 1 of 1.
More likely COPO cars when you look at all the options could be 1 of 1, because it was a relatively small batch of cars. Or even smaller the ZL-1, there may be no 2 cars that are exactly the same. 

While the 396-375 is a special car, they likely made larger proportion Hugger orange, just based off of color usage for the year. Then figure roughly 25% had the RS option. Just to put it in perspective.

[jdv69z]

I have never seen another 69 Z with the exact same combination of RS, garnet red, white vinyl, black std interior. Close, but never exact. 1 of 1?

[william]

Seems like every sign or ad for a Ford or Mopar these days lists every option with the number produced. Who cares? Some options were rare because they were unpopular. Chevy produced very few L78 Camaros with the standard 3-speed transmission. Very rare but not desirable these days.

John De Lorean took over as Chevrolet's General Manager February 1969. Chevy was a mess and it was his job to get it back on track. One problem was far too many customer options and choices.

"Chevrolet cars soon had 15,000 parts, with a combination of body types, engine sizes, colors, axle ratios, and interior arrangements which was almost incalculable. We could build one million Chevrolets and not have two cars exactly alike."

So much for "one of one."

[68 Ragtop]

Seems like every sign or ad for a Ford or Mopar these days lists every option with the number produced. Who cares? Some options were rare because they were unpopular. Chevy produced very few L78 Camaros with the standard 3-speed transmission. Very rare but not desirable these days.

John De Lorean took over as Chevrolet's General Manager February 1969. Chevy was a mess and it was his job to get it back on track. One problem was far too many customer options and choices.

"Chevrolet cars soon had 15,000 parts, with a combination of body types, engine sizes, colors, axle ratios, and interior arrangements which was almost incalculable. We could build one million Chevrolets and not have two cars exactly alike."

So much for "one of one."

Exactly. I have seen many Marti reports on poster boards where they narrow it down with obscure options to one of one and exclaim, "And This Is That Car!"

This car the OP is discussing is pretty rare and very desirable, whether it is one of one or not.

[mikea]

I've never read a Marti report.  Have never done research on any cars until now.  Not even a Ford.  And now I know more about the history of the 69 Camaro than any Ford. Ever.  I absolutely love my cousins 2018 ZL1-1LE.  Rather her than the vette anyday.  Looks waaaay better imho.

Ok.  What do you think about:

There were only about 4,889 1969 X22's built.  ?

MA

[69Z28-RS]

I think "one of one ?" is a Ford or Mopar term.

I always think of such terms as 'Salesmen's terms'...    (which cannot be proven)

[68 Ragtop]

I've never read a Marti report.  Have never done research on any cars until now.  Not even a Ford.  And now I know more about the history of the 69 Camaro than any Ford. Ever.  I absolutely love my cousins 2018 ZL1-1LE.  Rather her than the vette anyday.  Looks waaaay better imho.

Ok.  What do you think about:

There were only about 4,889 1969 X22's built.  ?

MA

Here is an example of a 1 of 1 Marti report.
All you had to do was order something odd like pastel blue with medium ginger and boom, 1 of 1.



X22, and all of the X codes are not RPO codes. No way to tell how many X anything where produced. That's not how X codes work.

[jdv69z]

Seems like every sign or ad for a Ford or Mopar these days lists every option with the number produced. Who cares? Some options were rare because they were unpopular. Chevy produced very few L78 Camaros with the standard 3-speed transmission. Very rare but not desirable these days.

John De Lorean took over as Chevrolet's General Manager February 1969. Chevy was a mess and it was his job to get it back on track. One problem was far too many customer options and choices.

"Chevrolet cars soon had 15,000 parts, with a combination of body types, engine sizes, colors, axle ratios, and interior arrangements which was almost incalculable. We could build one million Chevrolets and not have two cars exactly alike."

So much for "one of one."

Agreed.

[william]

There were only about 4,889 1969 X22's built.  ?

X22 was an internal Fisher Body code used for part of the model year at Norwood. No Fisher docs exist to verify any of the X codes; over the years their meaning became apparent. X22 is a Camaro SS 396 with Z21 style trim group. RS equipment included Z21 so those also had X22 tags. A few early production COPOs also had X22 tags. Z10s & Z11s w/396 were not X22. The body tag and its information was not used by Chevrolet.

4,889 is the reported production total for Camaro SS with the L78 engine. It has been mis-stated for decades. COPO build records list the L78 engine so it is not accurate. There were 69 ZL1s and 997 L72 COPO Camaros built so the actual L78 total is 3,823.

I don't understand the 1/1 obsession. Some of the most valuable 1st Gen Camaros-COPOs-were ordered in batches. The 50 Gibb ZL1s were built in 5 groups of 10, 6 4-speeds and 4 automatics in Dusk Blue, Fathom Green, Cortez Silver, Le Mans Blue, Hugger Orange. A few years ago a collector paid $650,000 for a silver automatic Gibb ZL1 and I'm sure they knew there are 3 more just like it. Many Yenko Camaros were also ordered in batches; there were 10 Olympic Gold 4-speeds built, all the same.

Shelby Cobras, GT350s, very few of those are 1/1. Doesn't seem to matter. Some of the most valuable cars in the hobby.

[BULLITT65]

I didn't realize the ZL-1 cars were that similar, thank you for the clarity.

For all those outside the car hobby, who always ask "well how rare is it?", I think the owners of some these cars like to be able to see it is 1 of 1, or very rare, only one built in this configuration. The other option is the dealers who want to tout how special a car, to really reach the ears of a potential buyer.

Some guys eat this stuff up.

The honest truth :  I would purchase a Marti report for my 69 camaro or any other car I have if there was one available. It is neat information to have about your car. I would suspect many guys on this site would if the info was out there to purchase. Shoot I paid $50 just to find the selling dealer...(sucker?)

Now a days you want to find something rare? find a unmolested muscle car, or even a unmodified plain jane car (muscle car body) driving around.

[mikea]

So.. Excellent points re the One of One!

It's not how much the car is worth to him.  He's helped build dozens and dozens of cars, but he did this one himself.  He just wants to document her properly.  To explain to people how special she is.  I suppose trying to drill down through all the numbers to find N711022 is unique, is my natural tendency as a numbers guy, to determine 'special'.  But I'm getting your point, and will have to rethink what makes something 'special'

I like the fact N711022 has the big block and the M22.  The super scoop hood... (Stop using cowl GM never said cowl in anything. Air induction hood is valid)

There was little expense spared.  And hugger orange is all over the place yes... even somewhat cliche. But with a black interior.  And nothing against fellas with black interiors... but the orange orange to me, is awesome.  I suppose I wanted all you guys to say oh wow cool yep shes unique.   But the skepticism and tendencies for people to fake all this stuff blows my mind.  You have to spend so much time proving it is a 'real' car (and rightly so!) I've sorta gotten lost in the details.  But the details are so interesting for a guy who likes numbers, and cars!! This car is real, you can put her in the registry, and it may never change ownership again. 

I guarantee I will be able to spot a 69 from this point on and be able to talk to the owner about options and engines. I'm actually racing against a 69 Camaro in September.  It's on the Targa Newfoundland entry list if u wanna look.  I'm pretty sure it is a full race car 69 though, nothing original about her.   But still, cool.  A 65 Mustang, full race car.  My cousin in his 2018 ZL1-1LE..  And me!!!  ANd about 35 or 40 others. Come up for a race byes.. I'll get ya a deal!! 

Thanks,

Mike