Author Topic: Caveat Emptor...forget something?  (Read 3799 times)

rsinor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2017, 12:37:06 PM »
I agree good discussion, I did not realize the lengthy history of re-stamping, and it seems the origins are in the Corvette world.
Damn you stuck up, "save the wave" secret handshake Corvette society...

(but thank you Roy and the NCRS resources  ;) )

Darrell and Bullitt65 -Thank you for the kind words, I'm proud of the few accomplishments in my life, getting NCRS to release the Shipping records for Camaro, Chevelle, El Camino and Nova was one of the items I lobbied hard for, finally opened the door. The few books I co authored or edited in the hobby are also high on the list.
 
Actually I believe re stamping started in the Mopar world, I remember in the early 80's going to an individuals place in a little out of the way town in Ohio, he must have had ten Hemi motors in the shop maybe two Chevrolet two Ford, his claim to fame was that he could stamp a motor nobody could tell. The Corvette world judging circle may have alerted the world to what was happening but it was in my view much more prevalent in other circles, that visit just confirmed the fact. That individual has since passed away, lowering the stamper count by one, but unfortunately the number of individuals doing it has increased at a much greater rate.

Mike S

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2017, 12:42:09 PM »
 I was wondering if this problem was also experienced in the Mopar, Ford and Pontiac world too.

Mike
67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Under restoration

BSMIT59

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2017, 02:57:22 PM »
A fraud perpetrated by an individual with the intent to profit it from it is theft by deception anyway you spell it! The people doing these stamps have no sense of pride in the Hobby so it makes zero difference to them who the Manufacturer is, it is only a dollar sign for them. I applaud all of you that are committed in this Hobby and maintain the records to offer FREE advice when asked about an issue. You are few and far between anymore and those of us that love this Hobby certainly appreciate this more than words can say.
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

maroman

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2017, 04:29:45 PM »
There's a guy at Carlisle flea markets that has a stamp set with him and will stamp any numbers you want right there.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

BULLITT65

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2017, 05:17:35 PM »
"have stamps, will travel", man that guy probably thinks he is doing everyone a favor...
Think of all the original pads, decked, so they can have a new number stamped. I bet some orphan blocks that may have found the original car eventually, have been re-stamped by now.
Plus with this white Z, I am now in the group of guys looking for their original block. Speaking of which now that I have started my search, I have to say there are a lot of original DZ blocks out there, not advertised. Guys just sitting on them. Makes me think some of these blocks are still waiting to be found.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

rsinor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »
I know of at lest three semi rare Corvettes that were judged, the judges who thought they were right deducted the aforementioned points for the engine pads, the owners could not live with it and had there engine re stamped, only to end up with the same result several thousand dollars later. The sad part of this story is I am convinced all three of those vehicles had original engines, that just had factory anomalies on their pads and somebody that had to prove they knew everything ended up causing three original examples to be destroyed. Not to mention the thousands of dollars it cost to end up with the same or in one case a worse result. The example that was worse result is an original pad had been lightly decked during a squaring of the block deck bore process in rebuild. He originally lost .8 percent for the missing original pad surface machining. After he had it re stamped, he lost 2% for the pad surface machining and both sets of stamps the machine code and the VIN derivative. Not smart, but in his case the pursuit of perfection caused disaster, that engine will never be viewed as original for the car again and it was. :'(

Pacecar

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2017, 12:30:02 AM »
Great Discussion. I realize NCRS accepts re-stamped blocks in their judging. I was wondering what members thoughts are regarding Camaro judging. Z28's, COPOs,  and L-78's were raced or at least driven hard so their engines and drive trains have been replaced in a lot if not most cases. The 1967 and later Norwood trim tags identify what came with the car.  What about the owner of a COPO or Z/28 who wanted his car judged in Legend Concours or another top flight event and had a block stamped to match the car ? What sort of penalty should be assessed if the block casting and date code are correct but the pad restamped ? Or the pad restamped to match the POP ? And should a heavier penalty be warranted if the restamping is not disclosed ? Again, these are cars being judged, not being marketed. And I realize that a lot of cars will use their scores to justify a higher price in the market at some point.

Kelley W King

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2017, 12:55:29 PM »
To me a "claim" of matching numbers is just a claim without some backup. My brother and I have had maybe 50 or 60 muscle cars since the 60,s and I could count on one hand the ones that I would say that it had born with equipment. GM trim tags in general tell colors and interior type and with mid 69 X codes body trim but little else. X77 and X33 just tell the factory to install Z28 trim and X22 and X66 just say big block SS trim. Mid year corvette trim tags tell body color, interior color,and convertible top color but little else. I have spent many hours tracking previous owners just to find out what the car had when they had it. I am buying my son a Nissan today to drive with what appears to have low mileage. The muscle car person in me caused me to go through the glove box to find Jiffy Lube papers that showed the mileage back for years that told me the mileage is correct. I enjoy the "hunt", scraping 40 years of crud off a 12 bolt to find a 3.73 posi with correct dates or talking to a previous owner who says yes that is a CX 400 turbo that he had to have the converter rebuilt for because he could not find one. I do this as a hobby. I do not think I would be successful doing it as a business because I am to honest.
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

bcmiller

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2017, 02:55:26 PM »
It's either original or not.

Restamping components was not, is not, and will never be acceptable in my mind. And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 ci, M21, 12 bolt
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2017, 03:12:06 PM »
And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".



Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

maroman

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2017, 05:20:39 PM »
It's either original or not.

Restamping components was not, is not, and will never be acceptable in my mind. And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".
AMEN!!
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

camaronut

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 01:33:06 AM »
I have a friend who is the original owner of a 68 Camaro/ 327 / 4 speed....neat car.  (If this is in the wrong thread, sorry.)

Back in 68, he had the car for a week and the rear developed a leak, which turned out to be a crack in the casting.  The dealership had the rear replaced under GM warranty.  So is the car still considered a numbers matching drive train????  The owner had no choice - just got his car fixed under warranty.  He has all the paper work on the car since day one.....

Same car.....he ordered the car with an AM radio....but what he received when the car was delivered - was an aftermarket unit made by Motorola.  No capacitors on the frame anywhere on the car and no caps on the voltage regulator.  An obvious addition BEFORE the car was delivered.  Seems to be a money making trick dealers did back in the day...pay $60 for a GM AM radio, and the dealer puts in a cheaper aftermarket unit to make a few extra $$.

Again.... is this considered original or not????  This is how it was delivered when he picked up the car from the dealership.  How does this car get judged in concourse judging????

Just throwing this out for thought.