CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: william on April 26, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-/122464298706?hash=item1c8370e6d2:g:tqQAAOSwBOtY~5a8&vxp=mtr
Sold for $88,000 at B-J FL a few weeks ago. The auction description mentions [twice] a "...restamped restoration engine" based on a CHP inspection. The ebay ad states: 100% NUMBERS MATCHING DRIVE TRAIN, 302-290 HP "DZ" ENGINE.
You be the judge.
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124379N642307
HERE'S (https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1969-CHEVROLET-CAMARO-Z/28--206260) the BJ auction and the description:
Lot #664 - Finished in Rally Green with black vinyl roof and interior, this Z/28 was sold to Arden Flower of Grand Rapids, MI, by C. Bell Chevrolet in Grand Rapids, MI. The original Window Sticker lists the following original equipment: tinted glass, vinyl roof, center console, posi-traction 4.10 rear end, power disc brakes, 4-speed close-ratio transmission, electric clock, AM radio, special ducted hood and Z/28 special performance equipment. It's equipped with the original transmission and rear end and powered by a restamped restoration engine. Documentation includes original Protect-O-Plate, Window Sticker, dealer sales order, installment sales contract, owner's manual and owner information and history. This Z/28 was found in a Jerry MacNeish publication. The professionally restored car features the original interior, matching-numbers transmission and rear end, and a restoration engine. The restoration was judged by Classic Chevy International and Worldwide Camaro Club February, 2010. It scored 993/1000 points, taking First Place in Restored Class. Received a special award for First Place Best Interior. The restoration is outstanding. The owner history, original documentation and recent judging make this stock Z/28 great. A full Jerry MacNeish report from December 2016 is included with the sale.
Ed
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SO as long as you stamp the engine with the right number that makes it numbers matching?!!
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SO as long as you stamp the engine with the right number that makes it numbers matching?!!
Apparently. And it also makes it worth $37k more than what they paid for it!!
Ed
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It is matching numbers.. Just not "born with" those numbers..
More of a resurrection...
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SO as long as you stamp the engine with the right number that makes it numbers matching?!!
If you put the right 'pretty words' on a turd... some people will tell you that it smells good!
(I think McNeish is the entity that coined the current pretty phrase... 'restamped restoration engine'... apparently so he didn't have to call the turd a 'turd'... and maybe stop the $$ from flowing?
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I emailed him. He says he doesn't consider the motor as part of the drive train, and that his auction description was taken right from BJ, "word for word", which is BS. It states twice in the BJ listing that it is a re-stamped restoration engine, and doesn't mention that at all in his listing. He said buyers need to ask him about the motor, then he will tell them it is a restamp. What a scammer! >:(
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Restamped Restoration Engine? Ughhh.... :(
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He says he doesn't consider the motor as part of the drive train
WTF!! Moron...
He needs to be...
(http://i.imgur.com/S5lm9B2.gif)
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If the engine is not part of the DRIVE train what is?
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Sounds like a politically correct, word playing li........
Mike
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I was at the Palm Beach, BJ auction a few weeks ago and looked this car over. If I remember correctly the seller had a notebook full of pictures and ALL of the MacNeish report there to look through. Page two clearly stated that the engine was not the original. It also clearly stated it on the windshield description. So the seller at the auction was honest about the restamp.
Obviously the new owner is just another typical crooked scammer that conveniently only shows the "Certificate of Authenticity" page of JM's report and not the full report in there ad to deceive and try to make some quick money. >:(
Like we always say, "I sure hope people are searching these VIN's before they buy"
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Emailed him on EBAY asking about re-stamped engine. He replied "thanks, are you an interested buyer"
Rick
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Emailed him on EBAY asking about re-stamped engine. He replied "thanks, are you an interested buyer"
Reply telling him you were until you read the BJ description and found out the engine is a restamp and NOT numbers matching as he's advertising it as!
Ed
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Looks like he changed his description a tad ! Now he should adjust his price ;D
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he had been sending me emails through ebay. He tried quoting wikipedia saying that the driveline does not include the motor....I thought that was just over the top funny.
Glad he made the change. He is upside down on the car, even if the car had the original block, six figures is a lot for a 69 Z, IMO
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Yep, much better on the ebay ad now. Its a nice looking car but I agree with you Austin, he's upside down on it. With buyer fees he has over 90k in it.
Good work fellas!
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The ad states: "100% NUMBERS MATCHING DRIVE TRAIN, 302-290 HP "DZ" ENGINE, ENGINE IS RE-STAMPED NOT ORIGINAL TO THE CAR".
Geez.....my car just became a number matching drive train car!!! WOO-HOO!!! ;)
Amazing....
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Curious about your take on this description, personally I use the term restoration engine a lot in my inspection reports as does Jerry and many others. I think the sellers at B-J and Jerry MacNeish did the right thing here, seller did not know it was a non GM stamped engine/motor when he purchased the restored car. They had MacNeish inspect their collection of cars, he advised them of the restoration engine/motor in the car and that it was not a numbers matching drive train, they sold the car and stated the facts as they understood them. I applaud that in this day and time. It's not the born with original engine, they did not claim it was when they sold it. It is a motor recreated to look as original with correct GM casting dates and GM casting numbers for the vehicle during restoration! so how would you describe it? I think re stamped restoration motor/engine, or restoration motor/engine, is a truthful accurate representation. I would consider a non original engine/motor with wrong casting number and casting date for the car maybe even wrong displacement a non original motor for sure, but a correct casting date and casting number would be as close as you can get without the original engine/motor available, restoration engine/motor seems the best alternative for that type of situation. I know this is a perfect example of the next guy not passing on the whole truth, or thinking he was smarter than the seller and inspector, that's a different subject in my mind. As a serious, knowledgeable, respected, vehicle inspector am I wrong in my thought process? Moderator's if you feel then need feel free to move this to a different section.
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I don't think there is any issue with how the car was represented at BJ or how described by Jerry. The issue is with the original description by the current seller. He bought the car knowing it was not an original matching #stamped engine then tried to sell/flip it as if it was for a lot more money. I don't like dishonesty no matter how it is spun.
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Heres what I have come to accept when I see descriptions of stampings in general.
Born-With = Left the factory with the car on the same day bolted in to said vehicle
Numbers Matching, Restoration Engine = Not original to the car but has been machined and restamped to match what originally could have been there
NOM = No Original Motor
Personally I have a hard time with people calling a restamp anything other than what it is.. Like putting perfume on a pile of poop. I also have a problem with the people that deck blocks and stamping their own dates and codes on the block. I would much rather have a car that had an original stamped DZ, MO, MQ etc from a different vin than to take an engine and make it into a restoration engine or numbers matching. It does not add value to the car IMHO. It more so makes me question the entire car because if a person is willing to restamp a pad or a part to deceive then what else are they willing to do to make a car "more valuable" for them in the long run.. As more and more people become more acceptable to the term and thinking it is ok then restamping will become common place (more so than it already is).. If that is what is acceptable in the Corvette world and this is the path Camaros are going then I will pass and move on to something else. There is nothing worse than a liar and a cheat.. For me it becomes personal as I have a passion for these cars and I do not have a problem with people making a dollar or 2 in a hobby but when people become greedy and restamping is considered an "OK" option then I feel like the hobby is going to SHIT. And sadly its been going that way for a long time now..
Im not slamming anyone personally but that is how I feel about the terms and events going on with it.
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Honesty, no matter how brutal, has always been and shall always be, the best policy. Bravo to the men that are staying strong in this!
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Agree, I don't believe anyone here had a problem with the way it was described at BJ. It's the current sellers avenue he had taken when he initially listed the car for resell.
I do believe that anyone that restamps an engine has one agenda on their mind. And that's to fool the public for a profit. It's not for a pure restoration purpose. If so then we'll be seeing date coded restamped body panels next.
As for using the term "restoration engine", I'm hoping it's goes deeper than that. Simply rebuilding an engine would be considered a restoration IMHO
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http://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/city-of-toronto/1969-camaro-z28/1255676720
Well if you check the 10D build date and VIN How does a Jan 302 engine end up in and Oct car with the correct VIN ? stamped on it. No pics but a lot of matching # stuff and "correct stuff". Unless one of the guys has this in a database I call BULL----
Either its original from the factory or its wrong. If you have an original DZ but NOM for your car SAY SO. The market will dictate a fair price for a correctly advertised car. Re bodies, Re-stamps, Restoration engine all mean the same thing "FAKE" Gee if you "cloned" the crown jewels would they be worth as much as the original or would they get priced accordingly as fakes ?
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I agree with Darrell 100%
As someone that has worked very hard to acquire truly born with drive train cars it offends me greatly and I believe hurts my investments as this re-stamp thing becomes more and more prevalent and acceptable.
I wish people wouldn't re-stamp them at all because some new owner down the line is always going to conveniently leave that part out in there description just like this seller did in order to deceive, lie and cheat for financial gain!
I'd like to at least see the word Clone added in, such as "Cloned Restoration/Restamped Engine".
Definitions of Clone:
1)make an identical copy of.
2)one that appears to be a copy of an original form : duplicate
3)a product that is a copy of another product produced by a well-known company
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Heres what I have come to accept when I see descriptions of stampings in general.
Born-With = Left the factory with the car on the same day bolted in to said vehicle
Numbers Matching, Restoration Engine = Not original to the car but has been machined and restamped to match what originally could have been there
NOM = No Original Motor
Personally I have a hard time with people calling a restamp anything other than what it is.. Like putting perfume on a pile of poop. I also have a problem with the people that deck blocks and stamping their own dates and codes on the block. I would much rather have a car that had an original stamped DZ, MO, MQ etc from a different vin than to take an engine and make it into a restoration engine or numbers matching. It does not add value to the car IMHO. It more so makes me question the entire car because if a person is willing to restamp a pad or a part to deceive then what else are they willing to do to make a car "more valuable" for them in the long run.. As more and more people become more acceptable to the term and thinking it is ok then restamping will become common place (more so than it already is).. If that is what is acceptable in the Corvette world and this is the path Camaros are going then I will pass and move on to something else. There is nothing worse than a liar and a cheat.. For me it becomes personal as I have a passion for these cars and I do not have a problem with people making a dollar or 2 in a hobby but when people become greedy and restamping is considered an "OK" option then I feel like the hobby is going to SHIT. And sadly its been going that way for a long time now..
Im not slamming anyone personally but that is how I feel about the terms and events going on with it.
Darrell, I agree with everything you say. It is not acceptable in the Corvette world in my book, let me explain why, the cat was out of the bag before anybody even realized it could happen. Re stamped motors were common place in the restoration hobby 35 years ago. We detected the first reproduction trim tag on a Corvette twenty eight years ago. This is not new and the more you advise the unscrupulous of their errors the better they get. That's why its paramount that you just stay quiet and not share the things you know that allows you to detect something, engine pad, trim tag or bogus paper, the more you discuss it the better the counterfeiter gets because they are listening to everything we discuss. In the corvette world the decision was made not to throw the baby out with the spilt milk, in other words If you had a real car you should not kill it because the engine went away due to some unforeseen mechanical issue or a lead foot. The engine was assigned a significant number of points in the total system almost 8%. Obviously in restoration of an original piece the closer you can get to original better. So in your statement as an examp0le you would prefer a real DZ motor from another 69 Z28. So would the Corvette world they would prefer a real 435 from another 67 435 Corvette in their 435, in fact the total points loss for that situation with an incorrect serial number close to the original vehicle would be .5% so a perfect car could score 99.5 with an original motor from another car. We agree on that scenario. I would much prefer that. But the matching numbers crowd has a hissy when the vin does not match the car. I don't get it they do, apparently. The next best choice might be the over the counter complete engine that never had a vin stamped on it, in the corvette world that engine looses the exact same points as the previous example. the iterations of this fall all the way to the 8%. Correct casting number and bad date is 4% deduct, correct casting number and casting date is 2% deduct. the engine pad is a total of 2%. so you could restore a car with a correct casting number and date block with non original machine marks on the pad and loose only 2%. Or you could do the same thing with an engine that had never been decked which still had its original machine marks regardless of what was stamped on the pad and loose 1%. I find it hard to understand how that system, condones restoration motors, it may recognize them and deduct for them but it does not throw the baby out with the milk. Believe me I seem to have spent my life calling a spade a spade when it comes to re stamped motors, reproduction trim tags and counterfeit paper. Unfortunately, its a case of the dog chasing its tail, because it has been going on for decades.
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Roy I understand where you are coming from. Granted I have not spent as many years but I have spent several studying, recording stampings, comparing info and examples and I will be one of the first ones to say that threads discussing stampings should not be allowed. I agree with the comments about the CE blocks vs DZ (example) from a different vin'd vehicle in a car. To me they hold the same value. If the points system is only losing .5% then it does make sense to create a restamp for that percentage of a point (at least in my eyes but I have been wrong more than one today). My examples of people doing these "alterations" to deceive a perspective buyer (either knowingly or not) is the biggest issue. I just have a hard time with the term being presented as its looks like a fluff word for being a restamp. Regardless of how you slice it; as you say, a spade is a spade. So why not call it such. Maybe because I am not deep into getting that extra half of a percentage of a point at a show as I am of knowing a car is legit. You could almost break this conversation into 2 different threads as you have the showing aspect then you have the selling/purchasing for the intent to deceive.
Your example of the 67 435 car (forgive me as I am not fluent on Vettes as I am with Camaros) but without some type of documentation does the trim tag prove a car to be a 435 car? If not then you have to use what is there before the restoration to evaluate whether or not the car was originally this or that. If that is compromised then I would not feel comfortable with certifying a car as such without concrete evidence. Im not saying disregard the car but it needs to be in the case of being suspect. Sometimes it is hard to express my thoughts and feelings over the forums so forgive me if I ramble or seem harsh as I have many thoughts going on at once. :P
Lastly you are correct, as the restamping and counterfeit docs etc have been going on for decades but just because it has does not mean I will give in and make an except just because someone wants to have an engine that appears correct.. Eventually somewhere down the road someone else will own that car and I can almost guarantee information will "be lost" and the once restamp "restoration engine" will become original born with. Im not sure how anyone can stop it but I sure as heck do not have to accept it.
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Darrell, agree completely, neither of us has to accept and it sounds like neither of us do, at the same time the down stream loss of the term restoration motor or re stamp has again been happening since 1985 as has the down stream loss of reproduction trim tag. I cant control what others think, not going to try. In truth the term matching numbers was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing into something that was not a truth. the term matching numbers was created after re stamping started to make individuals believe something was real that was not. So I place no faith in the term matching numbers, I've seen them that were done with a chisel. I like original engine, original transmission, etc. born with engine, born with transmission , etc.
with respect to a 435 corvette or a z28 Camaro, it takes a very well versed expert to identify either if the original engine is missing in action, plain simple fact. trim tags have been being changed for decades as has fraudulent paper been being produced. ONCE THE ORIGINAL DRIVE TRAIN IS GONE, IT IS A CRAP SHOOT. No better way to say it.
I applaud all of those that fight to keep injustice from happening if we do not protect the hobby, it will cease to exist. Every time an individual buys a bogus car, there is a great chance one less person will remain in the hobby. Not everyone can afford to learn from the school of hard knocks many of us have been subjected to. Had the seller of the Z28 not been honest in his description after the inspection by Jerry, nobody would have known because without reading that inspection report you cannot tell. The B-J seller was honest, the current eBay owner has not been. But there is proof the eBay owner knew going in because the description is now public record. He just decided he would pull a fast one on some unsuspecting hobbyist.
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As the old saying goes. Trust but verify. I am skeptical of everything until I see it and make my own judgement. Granted I will and do seek out others that I respect in the hobby for another opinion but in the end I have to feel comfortable with it. No offense to Jerry, you or anyone else that certifies car. I am one of those that will believe it when I see it. I understand not everyone will be this way but THIS is my passion and hobby so I take it personal at times.
Great discussion btw. Thank you for what you bring to the hobby Roy.
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I agree good discussion, I did not realize the lengthy history of re-stamping, and it seems the origins are in the Corvette world.
Damn you stuck up, "save the wave" secret handshake Corvette society...
(but thank you Roy and the NCRS resources ;) )
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I agree good discussion, I did not realize the lengthy history of re-stamping, and it seems the origins are in the Corvette world.
Damn you stuck up, "save the wave" secret handshake Corvette society...
(but thank you Roy and the NCRS resources ;) )
Darrell and Bullitt65 -Thank you for the kind words, I'm proud of the few accomplishments in my life, getting NCRS to release the Shipping records for Camaro, Chevelle, El Camino and Nova was one of the items I lobbied hard for, finally opened the door. The few books I co authored or edited in the hobby are also high on the list.
Actually I believe re stamping started in the Mopar world, I remember in the early 80's going to an individuals place in a little out of the way town in Ohio, he must have had ten Hemi motors in the shop maybe two Chevrolet two Ford, his claim to fame was that he could stamp a motor nobody could tell. The Corvette world judging circle may have alerted the world to what was happening but it was in my view much more prevalent in other circles, that visit just confirmed the fact. That individual has since passed away, lowering the stamper count by one, but unfortunately the number of individuals doing it has increased at a much greater rate.
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I was wondering if this problem was also experienced in the Mopar, Ford and Pontiac world too.
Mike
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A fraud perpetrated by an individual with the intent to profit it from it is theft by deception anyway you spell it! The people doing these stamps have no sense of pride in the Hobby so it makes zero difference to them who the Manufacturer is, it is only a dollar sign for them. I applaud all of you that are committed in this Hobby and maintain the records to offer FREE advice when asked about an issue. You are few and far between anymore and those of us that love this Hobby certainly appreciate this more than words can say.
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There's a guy at Carlisle flea markets that has a stamp set with him and will stamp any numbers you want right there.
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"have stamps, will travel", man that guy probably thinks he is doing everyone a favor...
Think of all the original pads, decked, so they can have a new number stamped. I bet some orphan blocks that may have found the original car eventually, have been re-stamped by now.
Plus with this white Z, I am now in the group of guys looking for their original block. Speaking of which now that I have started my search, I have to say there are a lot of original DZ blocks out there, not advertised. Guys just sitting on them. Makes me think some of these blocks are still waiting to be found.
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I know of at lest three semi rare Corvettes that were judged, the judges who thought they were right deducted the aforementioned points for the engine pads, the owners could not live with it and had there engine re stamped, only to end up with the same result several thousand dollars later. The sad part of this story is I am convinced all three of those vehicles had original engines, that just had factory anomalies on their pads and somebody that had to prove they knew everything ended up causing three original examples to be destroyed. Not to mention the thousands of dollars it cost to end up with the same or in one case a worse result. The example that was worse result is an original pad had been lightly decked during a squaring of the block deck bore process in rebuild. He originally lost .8 percent for the missing original pad surface machining. After he had it re stamped, he lost 2% for the pad surface machining and both sets of stamps the machine code and the VIN derivative. Not smart, but in his case the pursuit of perfection caused disaster, that engine will never be viewed as original for the car again and it was. :'(
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Great Discussion. I realize NCRS accepts re-stamped blocks in their judging. I was wondering what members thoughts are regarding Camaro judging. Z28's, COPOs, and L-78's were raced or at least driven hard so their engines and drive trains have been replaced in a lot if not most cases. The 1967 and later Norwood trim tags identify what came with the car. What about the owner of a COPO or Z/28 who wanted his car judged in Legend Concours or another top flight event and had a block stamped to match the car ? What sort of penalty should be assessed if the block casting and date code are correct but the pad restamped ? Or the pad restamped to match the POP ? And should a heavier penalty be warranted if the restamping is not disclosed ? Again, these are cars being judged, not being marketed. And I realize that a lot of cars will use their scores to justify a higher price in the market at some point.
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To me a "claim" of matching numbers is just a claim without some backup. My brother and I have had maybe 50 or 60 muscle cars since the 60,s and I could count on one hand the ones that I would say that it had born with equipment. GM trim tags in general tell colors and interior type and with mid 69 X codes body trim but little else. X77 and X33 just tell the factory to install Z28 trim and X22 and X66 just say big block SS trim. Mid year corvette trim tags tell body color, interior color,and convertible top color but little else. I have spent many hours tracking previous owners just to find out what the car had when they had it. I am buying my son a Nissan today to drive with what appears to have low mileage. The muscle car person in me caused me to go through the glove box to find Jiffy Lube papers that showed the mileage back for years that told me the mileage is correct. I enjoy the "hunt", scraping 40 years of crud off a 12 bolt to find a 3.73 posi with correct dates or talking to a previous owner who says yes that is a CX 400 turbo that he had to have the converter rebuilt for because he could not find one. I do this as a hobby. I do not think I would be successful doing it as a business because I am to honest.
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It's either original or not.
Restamping components was not, is not, and will never be acceptable in my mind. And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".
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And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".
(https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/buttkick.gif)
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It's either original or not.
Restamping components was not, is not, and will never be acceptable in my mind. And if I ever say something different, somebody really big better take me aside and give me an "attitude adjustment".
AMEN!!
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I have a friend who is the original owner of a 68 Camaro/ 327 / 4 speed....neat car. (If this is in the wrong thread, sorry.)
Back in 68, he had the car for a week and the rear developed a leak, which turned out to be a crack in the casting. The dealership had the rear replaced under GM warranty. So is the car still considered a numbers matching drive train???? The owner had no choice - just got his car fixed under warranty. He has all the paper work on the car since day one.....
Same car.....he ordered the car with an AM radio....but what he received when the car was delivered - was an aftermarket unit made by Motorola. No capacitors on the frame anywhere on the car and no caps on the voltage regulator. An obvious addition BEFORE the car was delivered. Seems to be a money making trick dealers did back in the day...pay $60 for a GM AM radio, and the dealer puts in a cheaper aftermarket unit to make a few extra $$.
Again.... is this considered original or not???? This is how it was delivered when he picked up the car from the dealership. How does this car get judged in concourse judging????
Just throwing this out for thought.