Author Topic: Caveat Emptor...forget something?  (Read 3785 times)

BULLITT65

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2017, 10:00:28 PM »
he had been sending me emails through ebay. He tried quoting wikipedia saying that the driveline does not include the motor....I thought that was just over the top funny.
Glad he made the change. He is upside down on the car, even if the car had the original block, six figures is a lot for a 69 Z, IMO
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 10:39:39 PM by BULLITT65 »
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

6667ss138

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 10:24:54 PM »
Yep, much better on the ebay ad now. Its a nice looking car but I agree with you Austin, he's upside down on it. With buyer fees he has over 90k in it.
Good work fellas!
Len H. KS
69 Z/28 07A X77D80 HO/Blk Vinyl Top, born w/drive train, full 3 owner hist
67 SS396 138 Conv/Red/Blk int.
66 SS396 138 4sp CA car/Smog/Blk/Red int. POP, born w/drive train, orig CA blk plates http://www.chevelles.com/forums/35-restoration-corner/528818-66-ss-finally-back-track-30.html

camaronut

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 03:38:40 PM »
The ad states: "100% NUMBERS MATCHING DRIVE TRAIN, 302-290 HP "DZ" ENGINE, ENGINE IS RE-STAMPED NOT ORIGINAL TO THE CAR". 

Geez.....my car just became a number matching drive train car!!! WOO-HOO!!! ;)

Amazing....


rsinor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 05:44:02 PM »
Curious about your take on this description, personally I use the term restoration engine a lot in my inspection reports as does Jerry and many others. I think the sellers at B-J and Jerry MacNeish did the right thing here, seller did not know it was a non GM stamped engine/motor when he purchased the restored car. They had MacNeish inspect their collection of cars, he advised them of the restoration engine/motor in the car and that it was not a numbers matching drive train, they sold the car and stated the facts as they understood them. I applaud that in this day and time. It's not the born with original engine, they did not claim it was when they sold it. It is a motor recreated to look as original with correct GM casting dates and GM casting numbers for the vehicle during restoration! so how would you describe it? I think re stamped restoration motor/engine, or restoration motor/engine, is a truthful accurate representation. I would consider a non original engine/motor with wrong casting number and casting date for the car maybe even wrong displacement a non original motor for sure, but a correct casting date and casting number would be as close as you can get without the original engine/motor available, restoration engine/motor seems the best alternative for that type of situation.  I know this is a perfect example of the next guy not passing on the whole truth, or thinking he was smarter than the seller and inspector, that's a different subject in my mind. As a serious, knowledgeable, respected, vehicle inspector am I wrong in my thought process?    Moderator's if you feel then need feel free to move this to a different section.

rick 67

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 06:13:09 PM »
  I don't think there is any issue with how the car was represented at BJ or how described by Jerry. The issue is with the original description by the current seller. He bought the car knowing it was not an original matching #stamped engine then tried to sell/flip it as if it was for a lot more money. I don't like dishonesty no matter how it is spun.

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2017, 06:21:53 PM »
Heres what I have come to accept when I see descriptions of stampings in general.

Born-With = Left the factory with the car on the same day bolted in to said vehicle

Numbers Matching, Restoration Engine  = Not original to the car but has been machined and restamped to match what originally could have been there

NOM = No Original Motor

Personally I have a hard time with people calling a restamp anything other than what it is..  Like putting perfume on a pile of poop.  I also have a problem with the people that deck blocks and stamping their own dates and codes on the block.  I would much rather have a car that had an original stamped DZ, MO, MQ etc from a different vin than to take an engine and make it into a restoration engine or numbers matching.  It does not add value to the car IMHO.  It more so makes me question the entire car because if a person is willing to restamp a pad or a part to deceive then what else are they willing to do to make a car "more valuable" for them in the long run..  As more and more people become more acceptable to the term and thinking it is ok then restamping will become common place (more so than it already is)..  If that is what is acceptable in the Corvette world and this is the path Camaros are going then I will pass and move on to something else.  There is nothing worse than a liar and a cheat..  For me it becomes personal as I have a passion for these cars and I do not have a problem with people making a dollar or 2 in a hobby but when people become greedy and restamping is considered an "OK" option then I feel like the hobby is going to SHIT.  And sadly its been going that way for a long time now..


Im not slamming anyone personally but that is how I feel about the terms and events going on with it.

Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

BSMIT59

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 06:43:44 PM »
Honesty, no matter how brutal, has always been and shall always be, the best policy. Bravo to the men that are staying strong in this!
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

69 Zee

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 07:31:06 PM »
Agree, I don't believe anyone here had a problem with the way it was described at BJ.  It's the current sellers avenue he had taken when he initially listed the car for resell. 
I do believe that anyone that restamps an engine has one agenda on their mind. And that's to fool the public for a profit.  It's not for a pure restoration purpose.  If so then we'll be seeing date coded restamped body panels next.

As for using the term "restoration engine", I'm hoping it's goes deeper than that.  Simply rebuilding an engine would be considered a restoration IMHO
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:15:59 PM by 69 Zee »
Darrell

'69 Z/28 03B NOR X77 Dusk Blue, white top, flat hood, all born w/parts and drive train.  Under restoration
'69 Firebird, Veredoro green, blk top, deluxe int, all original, 350 auto

rick 67

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2017, 07:36:17 PM »
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/city-of-toronto/1969-camaro-z28/1255676720 
 Well if you check the 10D build date and VIN  How does a Jan 302 engine end up in and Oct car with the correct VIN ? stamped on it. No pics but a lot of matching # stuff and "correct stuff". Unless one of the guys has this in a database I call BULL----
  Either its original from the factory or its wrong. If you have an original DZ but NOM for your car SAY SO. The market will dictate a fair price for a correctly advertised car. Re bodies, Re-stamps, Restoration engine all mean the same thing "FAKE" Gee if you "cloned" the crown jewels would they be worth as much as the original or would they get priced accordingly as fakes ?

6667ss138

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 08:02:45 PM »
I agree with Darrell 100%
As someone that has worked very hard to acquire truly born with drive train cars it offends me greatly and I believe hurts my investments as this re-stamp thing becomes more and more prevalent and acceptable.
I wish people wouldn't re-stamp them at all because some new owner down the line is always going to conveniently leave that part out in there description just like this seller did in order to deceive, lie and cheat for financial gain!
I'd like to at least see the word Clone added in, such as "Cloned Restoration/Restamped Engine".

Definitions of Clone:
1)make an identical copy of.
2)one that appears to be a copy of an original form :  duplicate
3)a product that is a copy of another product produced by a well-known company
Len H. KS
69 Z/28 07A X77D80 HO/Blk Vinyl Top, born w/drive train, full 3 owner hist
67 SS396 138 Conv/Red/Blk int.
66 SS396 138 4sp CA car/Smog/Blk/Red int. POP, born w/drive train, orig CA blk plates http://www.chevelles.com/forums/35-restoration-corner/528818-66-ss-finally-back-track-30.html

rsinor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
Heres what I have come to accept when I see descriptions of stampings in general.

Born-With = Left the factory with the car on the same day bolted in to said vehicle

Numbers Matching, Restoration Engine  = Not original to the car but has been machined and restamped to match what originally could have been there

NOM = No Original Motor

Personally I have a hard time with people calling a restamp anything other than what it is..  Like putting perfume on a pile of poop.  I also have a problem with the people that deck blocks and stamping their own dates and codes on the block.  I would much rather have a car that had an original stamped DZ, MO, MQ etc from a different vin than to take an engine and make it into a restoration engine or numbers matching.  It does not add value to the car IMHO.  It more so makes me question the entire car because if a person is willing to restamp a pad or a part to deceive then what else are they willing to do to make a car "more valuable" for them in the long run..  As more and more people become more acceptable to the term and thinking it is ok then restamping will become common place (more so than it already is)..  If that is what is acceptable in the Corvette world and this is the path Camaros are going then I will pass and move on to something else.  There is nothing worse than a liar and a cheat..  For me it becomes personal as I have a passion for these cars and I do not have a problem with people making a dollar or 2 in a hobby but when people become greedy and restamping is considered an "OK" option then I feel like the hobby is going to SHIT.  And sadly its been going that way for a long time now..


Im not slamming anyone personally but that is how I feel about the terms and events going on with it.



Darrell, I agree with everything you say. It is not acceptable in the Corvette world in my book, let me explain why, the cat was out of the bag before anybody even realized it could happen. Re stamped motors were common place in the restoration hobby 35 years ago. We detected the first reproduction trim tag on a Corvette twenty eight years ago. This is not new and the more you advise the unscrupulous of their errors the better they get.  That's why its paramount that you just stay quiet and not share the things you know that allows you to detect something, engine pad, trim tag or bogus paper, the more you discuss it the better the counterfeiter gets because they are listening to everything we discuss.  In the corvette world the decision was made not to throw the baby out with the spilt milk, in other words If you had a real car you should not kill it because the engine went away due to some unforeseen mechanical issue or a lead foot. The engine was assigned a significant number of points in the total system almost 8%. Obviously in restoration of an original piece the closer you can get to original better. So in your statement as an examp0le you would prefer a real DZ motor from another 69 Z28. So would the Corvette world they would prefer a real 435 from another 67 435 Corvette in their 435, in fact the total points loss for that situation with an incorrect serial number close to the original vehicle would be .5% so a perfect car could score 99.5 with an original motor from another car. We agree on that scenario. I would much prefer that. But the matching numbers crowd has a hissy when the vin does not match the car. I don't get it they do, apparently. The next best choice might be the over the counter complete engine that never had a vin stamped on it, in the corvette world that engine looses the exact same points as the previous example.  the iterations of this fall all the way to the 8%. Correct casting number and bad date is 4% deduct, correct casting number and casting date is 2% deduct. the engine pad is a total of 2%. so you could restore a car with a correct casting number and date block with non original machine marks on the pad and loose only 2%. Or you could do the same thing with an engine that had never been decked which still had its original machine marks  regardless of what was stamped on the pad and loose 1%.  I find it hard to understand how that system, condones restoration motors, it may recognize them and deduct for them but it does not throw the baby out with the milk. Believe me I seem to have spent my life calling a spade a spade when it comes to re stamped motors, reproduction trim tags and counterfeit paper. Unfortunately, its a case of the dog chasing its tail, because it has been going on for decades.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 03:13:19 PM by rsinor »

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2017, 05:05:30 PM »
Roy I understand where you are coming from.  Granted I have not spent as many years but I have spent several studying, recording stampings, comparing info and examples and I will be one of the first ones to say that threads discussing stampings should not be allowed.  I agree with the comments about the CE blocks vs DZ (example) from a different vin'd vehicle in a car.  To me they hold the same value.  If the points system is only losing .5% then it does make sense to create a restamp for that percentage of a point (at least in my eyes but I have been wrong more than one today).  My examples of people doing these "alterations" to deceive a perspective buyer (either knowingly or not) is the biggest issue.  I just have a hard time with the term being presented as its looks like a fluff word for being a restamp.  Regardless of how you slice it; as you say, a spade is a spade.  So why not call it such.  Maybe because I am not deep into getting that extra half of a percentage of a point at a show as I am of knowing a car is legit.  You could almost break this conversation into 2 different threads as you have the showing aspect then you have the selling/purchasing for the intent to deceive. 

Your example of the 67 435 car (forgive me as I am not fluent on Vettes as I am with Camaros) but without some type of documentation does the trim tag prove a car to be a 435 car?  If not then you have to use what is there before the restoration to evaluate whether or not the car was originally this or that.  If that is compromised then I would not feel comfortable with certifying a car as such without concrete evidence.  Im not saying disregard the car but it needs to be in the case of being suspect.  Sometimes it is hard to express my thoughts and feelings over the forums so forgive me if I ramble or seem harsh as I have many thoughts going on at once.   :P

Lastly you are correct, as the restamping and counterfeit docs etc have been going on for decades but just because it has does not mean I will give in and make an except just because someone wants to have an engine that appears correct..  Eventually somewhere down the road someone else will own that car and I can almost guarantee information will "be lost" and the once restamp "restoration engine" will become original born with.  Im not sure how anyone can stop it but I sure as heck do not have to accept it.
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

rsinor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »
Darrell, agree completely, neither of us has to accept and it sounds like neither of us do, at the same time the down stream loss of the term restoration motor or re stamp has again been happening since 1985 as has the down stream loss of reproduction trim tag. I cant control what others think, not going to try. In truth the term matching numbers was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing into something that was not a truth.  the term matching numbers was created after re stamping started to make individuals believe something was real that was not. So I place no faith in the term matching numbers, I've seen them that were done with a chisel. I like original engine, original transmission, etc. born with engine, born with transmission , etc.

with respect to a 435 corvette or a z28 Camaro, it takes a very well versed expert to identify either if the original engine is missing in action, plain simple fact. trim tags have been being changed for decades as has fraudulent paper been being produced. ONCE THE ORIGINAL DRIVE TRAIN IS GONE, IT IS A CRAP SHOOT. No better way to say it.

I applaud all of those that fight to keep injustice from happening if we do not protect the hobby, it will cease to exist. Every time an individual buys a bogus car, there is a great chance one less person will remain in the hobby. Not everyone can afford to learn from the school of hard knocks many of us have been subjected to. Had the seller of the Z28 not been honest in his description after the inspection by Jerry, nobody would have known because without reading that inspection report you cannot tell. The B-J seller was honest, the current eBay owner has not been. But there is proof the eBay owner knew going in because the description is now public record. He just decided he would pull a fast one on some unsuspecting hobbyist.

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2017, 11:46:04 PM »
As the old saying goes.  Trust but verify.  I am skeptical of everything until I see it and make my own judgement.  Granted I will and do seek out others that I respect in the hobby for another opinion but in the end I have to feel comfortable with it.  No offense to Jerry, you or anyone else that certifies car.  I am one of those that will believe it when I see it.  I understand not everyone will be this way but THIS is my passion and hobby so I take it personal at times.


Great discussion btw.  Thank you for what you bring to the hobby Roy.
Darrell Cook

Contact me if you have a 68 L78/L89 Camaro to add it to my database.

BULLITT65

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Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2017, 05:52:33 AM »
I agree good discussion, I did not realize the lengthy history of re-stamping, and it seems the origins are in the Corvette world.
Damn you stuck up, "save the wave" secret handshake Corvette society...

(but thank you Roy and the NCRS resources  ;) )
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV