Author Topic: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker  (Read 11245 times)

Mike S

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 04:02:48 PM »
 Personally, I'd refrain from using a poster. I have seen twice a poster w/stand get blown into the car from a sudden wind and scratch it. The owners were pissed and one guy I had seen this year, after his car was scratched from his poster last year, decided it wasn't worth the risk or bother to bring some ballast.
  I know of one original window sticker on a box Nova and that is because the guy is the original owner. It looks its age too (as well as the original owner). Aside from that, any other window sticker I see I assume it is a reproduction and so far every owner I have asked about it's authenticity tells me it is a repro.
  I also keep and show, in the glove box, an original SS/350 protect-o-plate w/ the owners manual it came in but that is for display and discussion purposes as its VIN does not match my convertible. I know they can now make accurate reproductions, but I have no desire to get one.
  Like I said, my bar is to restore and have fun with my car the way it left the dealer and I'm not going to let the actions of some devious people hinder that. And when I'm honest and up-front with people when asked about the authenticity of documentation, it will go to show that not everyone out there is intent on being dishonest or purposely misrepresenting this hobby. For the more serious person looking to buy a car with documentation, well, they will always have to do their share of due-diligence to ensure what they are buying is indeed real. That in itself will be a challenge when you look at items like broach marks, re-stamps (blocks, alternators, starters, pulley's t name a few), old previous restorations that today look like originals with patina, etc......And by logic if the market gets saturated with enough of these 'clones' then the price will likely settle down to not make it profitable anymore to make these undeclared clones and we'll be back to the pre-numbers matching days when we had fun owning and driving these cars and not embedded with anxiety. Give it time and the "wheel will turn".
  Great discussion guys!

Mike
67 04B LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 05B NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

bcmiller

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2016, 04:11:37 PM »
Mike, that is fine.  Not everyone is going to agree.  The guy I parked next to had more money in paint and body work on his car that I have in my whole car!  A scratch would be fixed, by me - or by my son who is becoming a very good body technician. 

I don't think you would ever try to deceive anyone.  The problem is what happens "down the road". 

What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate?  Have you listed it in the Orphans section?  If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

68camaroz28

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2016, 05:24:48 PM »
Personally, I'd refrain from using a poster. I have seen twice a poster w/stand get blown into the car from a sudden wind and scratch it. The owners were pissed and one guy I had seen this year, after his car was scratched from his poster last year, decided it wasn't worth the risk or bother to bring some ballast.
  I know of one original window sticker on a box Nova and that is because the guy is the original owner. It looks its age too (as well as the original owner). Aside from that, any other window sticker I see I assume it is a reproduction and so far every owner I have asked about it's authenticity tells me it is a repro.
  I also keep and show, in the glove box, an original SS/350 protect-o-plate w/ the owners manual it came in but that is for display and discussion purposes as its VIN does not match my convertible. I know they can now make accurate reproductions, but I have no desire to get one.
  Like I said, my bar is to restore and have fun with my car the way it left the dealer and I'm not going to let the actions of some devious people hinder that. And when I'm honest and up-front with people when asked about the authenticity of documentation, it will go to show that not everyone out there is intent on being dishonest or purposely misrepresenting this hobby. For the more serious person looking to buy a car with documentation, well, they will always have to do their share of due-diligence to ensure what they are buying is indeed real. That in itself will be a challenge when you look at items like broach marks, re-stamps (blocks, alternators, starters, pulley's t name a few), old previous restorations that today look like originals with patina, etc......And by logic if the market gets saturated with enough of these 'clones' then the price will likely settle down to not make it profitable anymore to make these undeclared clones and we'll be back to the pre-numbers matching days when we had fun owning and driving these cars and not embedded with anxiety. Give it time and the "wheel will turn".
  Great discussion guys!

Mike
I agree with Mike but understand the concern. I had a repro window sticker made up for our 69 L78 survivor nova I ordered. Have orig ord form, BOS, POP, etc. but window sticker was torn off and trashed when we picked the car up so t thought it was cool on the car.
Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

william

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2016, 03:15:40 AM »
Read the 4th article "The Dirty Side of the Hobby – Fake Pedigree & Provenance" to learn how this is viewed in the legal community.

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/

Learning more and more about less and less...

6667ss138

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2016, 03:30:00 AM »
Excellent article!

68camaroz28

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2016, 08:06:07 AM »
Read the 4th article "The Dirty Side of the Hobby – Fake Pedigree & Provenance" to learn how this is viewed in the legal community.

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/
Agree when anyone tries to "fake" or make something it is not there is an issue. That in my view does not make a repro window sticker in itself dirty laundry. What about repro parts sold as original? Should we view all repro parts as bad for the hobby or just the ones that are very good copies. What about some of the excellent stickers? Should they be looked upon as bad for the hobby because someone bad might use wrongfully? That was a good article Bill and in my home state. Wow, stay married!

Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2016, 10:39:25 AM »
That attorney in the first article, RE: 68 Camaro sold by ex-wife, and all the articles in this publishing, I believe, and in the cited(#4) article William provided is our very own elcamino72, here, on this site.
Bentley to friends :1969 SS/RS 396 owned 79
1969 SS 350 (sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. owned since 85
1967 302 4 spd 5.13

ZLP955

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2016, 11:16:00 AM »
I understand why some of you want a good, accurate reproduction WS to display with the car, but I confess I will never understand why you wouldn't accept having some text clearly visible on the front to the effect that it's repro. That would mislead nobody.
The suggestion that a watermark on the rear guarantees no-one could be mistaken in thinking it's real beyond the current owner, obviously discounts someone making a high-quality copy of the front of the document, conveniently resulting in a WS without said watermark.....
No disrespect intended, just my opinion as always.
Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA.
AHRA Formula Stock at Lions Dragstrip, NHRA E/MP at Pomona Raceway

jdv69z

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2016, 01:09:39 PM »
I remember reading Colvin's By the Numbers books, and his comment that the actual car should stand on it's own merit independent of paper work. Seems like it's gone full circle. No one piece of evidence is conclusive, it takes examination of all the evidence (paperwork, trim tag, vin, date codes, part no.s, etc.) to make the case. And I have no doubt that even then, there are very had to detect counterfeits.
Jimmy V.

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2016, 01:55:37 PM »
I am not really sure what the big deal is on the fake docs..  People do not realize (including many here) just how many fake cars that are out there..  The internet has become a great tool for people to find rare cars & parts as well as the people that make money off of faking these rare cars/parts..  Nothing will really change as people will continue to make reproduction docs and they will continue to become better and better..  Unfortunately sites like this where the issues that are talked about on said docs only gives the fakers corrections for the next batch..  If you have enough money you can buy damn near anything..  I honestly wish GM would release all their documents on all the cars they have ever built if they still have/had them...  And if they did Im not sure what the real outcome would be with the amounts of lawsuits that would filed..  The whole "hobby" would probably fall flat on its face.  There's your negativity from me for the day..

BULLITT65

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2016, 02:34:50 PM »
Not sure I agree that the hobby would fall on its face if GM had (has) them, and then released them. I think about PHS and the Marti reports, which seem to verify things for the Pontiacs and Ford/Mercury guys. Would there be some lawsuits? sure, but I think it would be on a small percentage of cars. When the NCRS all of a sudden had access to find out which dealer your car came from and the date it was produced, that may have led some guys to realize their cars docs and some components were fake, and may have resulted in some law suits, but I think many guys that don't bother to research, and just take the seller at their word, probably also didn't take the time to order that from the NCRS. I also believe there is a small percentage of us that can recognize a real window sticker vs. a fake.
William, Kurt, James, and others on here, have been great on weighing in on authenticity, and I believe has helped many of us learn how to spot originals, vs. helping the fraudsters make better fakes. There is no way of knowing this, but I am going off of how many fakes are still spotted, or mismatched cars that all of a sudden pop up with an original drivetrain. Hell I thought I found a window sticker from the same dealer as my car, (it was with a 68 Corvair), and it was a fake. So yes fakes are al over, but as Jimmy V alluded to, you have to check over all the docs and stamps.

I agree with Tim though the water mark, or identify-er should be on the front of the window sticker, make that much harder to duplicate, or that much easier to identify as a reproduction.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2016, 03:19:17 PM »
I was being a little silly when I said the hobby would fall on its face but this hobby has changed a ton over the past 20 years..  And yes you have to do your homework that is a necessity.  But I guess my real point was you are never gonna stop people from making fake docs...  and the more they are talked about in a public forum; sooner or later someone will make one that can not be recognized as fake..  My theory has been and always will be that it is great on pointing out the fakes but discussing what is wrong vs what is right on a forum gives anyone with internet access the ability to better their craft..  With knowledge comes power; with power comes corruption..  I think its time for me to step back into the shadows..

Mike S

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2016, 03:45:32 PM »
  I would not want the words 'reproduction' on the front no more than I would want 'reproduction' on the front of any sticker or dealer emblem. You can make the best photo copy in the world of an accurate and aged looking repro window sticker that has the water mark on the back and not have the mark on the new copy. But, you can never duplicate the feel, texture and smell of aged (oxidized) paper with that copy so it won't matter where a watermark is. And if someone is holding an aged looking document but has a new feel and they got burnt then shame on them for not researching. When I have mine done up I'm going to ask the vendor if they can put a 'repro' water mark on the back. It will just be for my own satisfaction regardless how the legal community views it.
 
67 04B LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 05B NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

Mike S

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2016, 03:54:18 PM »
.......
What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate?  Have you listed it in the Orphans section?  If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?

This was a parts car that I used to replace rear floor boards and the dash top on my convertible back in the early 80's before there were repro body parts. No motor or other drive train components, just an empty body that was eventually junked. The POP was in the glovebox then.

Mike
67 04B LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 05B NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored

bcmiller

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Re: Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2016, 11:51:45 PM »
.......
What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate?  Have you listed it in the Orphans section?  If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?
This was a parts car that I used to replace rear floor boards and the dash top on my convertible back in the early 80's before there were repro body parts. No motor or other drive train components, just an empty body that was eventually junked. The POP was in the glovebox then.
Mike

OK that's fine. We use the data on the POPs for research purposes, toward color percentages, drivetrain component dates, options....
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

 

anything