CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: william on June 18, 2016, 09:21:55 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Super-Sport-/391487154782?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5b2673ea5e:g:htEAAOSwBPNXR3zN&item=391487154782
Now they are inventing options. F70 x 15 tires were never available on a 1st Gen Camaro.
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VIN: 124379N648547
Paul
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I noticed something very interesting about the window sticker (bogus) of this car, and the gold Z that William posted recently. Please compare! This car has chambered listed and the VIN is after the May 19th cutoff of around 646229! (And, did anything other than Z's and big blocks get chambered)? The Gold Z has a Z28 price listed of 473.00 instead of 506.60.
The main object that I would like to point out that I see, is that it appears that the window stickers were made by the same person, even though the sellers are two different people! Check out and compare the VIN placement and fonts on the WS between the two cars. Neither one has the NOR body number to the right of the dealer name! Neither one has the order number to the right of Chevrolet! Same format? What do ya'll think?
Bryan
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The guys that produce fake paperwork think they are providing a service to the hobby. Too often the fake paper travels with the car when it is sold. A few years later, the car is for sale again and there it is displayed in an ad. I've seen 1st gens at Barrett-Jackson displayed with fake paper. Some of the fake paperwork is very convincing.
The NCRS no longer judges Protect-O-Plates because the fakes are so good. All paperwork is headed that way.
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Surely whether high quality or poor quality, 'restoration' window stickers would be a non-issue for misrepresentation if the watermark or statement as to their creation (such as 'this is a reproduction document') was on the front.
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Personal opinion only here, but I think EVERY reproduction document should be CLEARLY labelled that way. Whether it matches up with a car with those exact options on a legitimate car or not. Paperwork is not common, and cars either have it or they don't.
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Personal opinion only here, but I think EVERY reproduction document should be CLEARLY labelled that way. Whether it matches up with a car with those exact options on a legitimate car or not. Paperwork is not common, and cars either have it or they don't.
I second that motion!!
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Well Its unfortunate that there is so much reproduction paperwork, (and protect-o-plates), out there or* that it is being seen more and more often now. I wasn't fortunate enough to get the window sticker, but I did get almost everything else with my car. I wonder in the future if it will take a historian, who can study the paperwork, and has a background in authenticating the age of documents to curb some of the new paperwork that is being produced. I think it would be beneficial to have the a organization like the NRCS oversee this authentication process. I am sure guys would pay to have there docs certified.
I can imagine an eBay listing that says " original windows sticker, protect plate, and dealer invoice, Certified by the NCRS" and then have a data base to verify it.
I think it would benefit the hobby. I would like to hear others opinions on this though, so please chime in with your opinions... :)
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Austin, I think its a great idea but according to William in post #3 "The NCRS no longer judges Protect-O-Plates because the fakes are so good. All paperwork is headed that way".......It doesn't sound like the NCRS would be an option.
Its just a shame that sleasy money has brought all these greedy forgery artists out of the woodwork over the years. In my opinion they have put a big hurt on our hobby and on us honest guys that have invested a lot of money and hard work into our true and original real cars.
Very frustrating!
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IMO, there is a legit market for repro windows stickers when represented honestly. When I finish my current restoration, I plan on getting an accurate repro window sticker to show only because I am trying to achieve the level as to what the car would have looked like when dealer new. I would not want the words 'repro' on the front otherwise I would not buy it. It can be lightly watermarked 'reproduction' on the back however as long as it's not seen through the paper and on the front. I also don't care if the paper is 'aged' or not.
I think that would satisfy everyone.
Mike
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Mike, that is your opinion but I don't agree.
A car is what it is. That is what makes cars that DO have original paperwork special.
For example, I went to a show on Saturday. I won best Chevy, with my car. My car is an old race car, with 20 plus year old paint (except where I had to blend on the passenger side quarter panel where the previous owner had a substandard earlier repair), original (but faded) carpet, seats that are original material (but not originally from my car, they are standard and my car had black hounds tooth originally). Under the hood it's not anywhere close to original, but still pleasing to the eye.
I talked with one judge as my great nephew (he is four years old) and I were detailing the car after we pulled in. We drove through some mud puddles because that is how we had to get to the show area. Some trailer queens cars didn't have to drive through the mud because those guys just rolled their cars out of trailers and had no detailing to do once parked. Hell some of them didn't even start their cars! When my son showed up later, he and I detailed a bit more under the hood and talked to another judge as he was walking around.
Anyway, they judged the cars for what they were. Point-wise, a car that was driven there was given extra points. Honestly, I probably should not have won. But I guess presenting the car for what it was paid off.
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Hi Bryon,
I remember days when driving my prized possession through some mud to get to the show area :)
But, in my case it's not for points but more to show the viewing public what the car would have looked like on the dealer floor. I'm more than likely going to put the reproduction 'SPEILMAN' dealer sticker on the back as it was originally because it looks so darn good to me. That's the level I am striving for. As I stated, a reproduction window sticker will be displayed and if anyone asks, and I am sure they will, I will certainly tell them it is a repro. To the public they see what options the car came with and usually chuckle about "how cheap the prices were back then". It would be even better if the words 'reproduction' was on the back this way it will keep the skeptics at bay in case they ask me "well...what happens if you sell the car and the new owner mis-represents it"? For that I'll politely tell them, as I do now, that my cars are willed to my children and what they do after I am dead and buried is up to them if they decide to sell them or not. If a reproduction window sticker has the words "reproduction' imprinted on the back then I can't see how it can be passed off as anything other than a copy.
Mike
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An *option* to this approach, if you want to show what options are on the car, would be to do a print out of the FULL OPTIONS LIST (I think this is available via the CRG website), and then identify which of these options your car came with from the factory (or what you restored it to) seeing that these are generally different with most restorations. Do a poster with the full options list which identifies which your car has... wouldn't that be MORE informative without misleading? and probably would lead to even more discussion at car shows.. :)
When I purchased a new car over the years, I always asked them to *leave* the window sticker on the car, and when I got home, I sprayed it down with windex.. which helped it to slide off the window as one piece, but when it dried, it was generally wrinkled and not totally smooth. The later new cars I've purchased, when I asked them to leave the window sticker, I've been asked if I would like them to remove the sticker and provide it to me. I don't know what they use to remove the sticker, or if the window stickers are applied with a different glue in modern times, but these window stickers are generally nicer when removed.
If I see a window sticker on an 'old' car from the 50's and 60's, if it isnt' wrinkled/yellowed/even torn a bit... I'd immediately discount it as being an original window sticker... :)
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I see what you are saying Gary, but I do like seeing the informative window sticker, with correct pricing. ;)
I think a water drop "R" somewhere on the front of the window sticker would do it. I was at a show this past weekend and saw an unrestored 65 Mustang and the owner had the original window sticker loosely inside a plastic stand. It was very refreshing to see the condition of the car, and the original paperwork. I suggested she scan the original for safe keeping and just keep a nice copy to show people. The original paperwork is to valuable to have somebody swipe it, or a freak accident happen and it is gone. This car wasn't worth a bunch, but why take the chance.
For what you are suggesting Gary you would have to have a price sheet that showed all the options, and pricing, and then updates when pricing went up through the year? I think that is a bit TMI. I am not so worried about what is on display at a show, as is what is passed off as original when the car changes hands. :)
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An *option* to this approach, if you want to show what options are on the car, would be to do a print out of the FULL OPTIONS LIST (I think this is available via the CRG website), and then identify which of these options your car came with from the factory (or what you restored it to) seeing that these are generally different with most restorations. Do a poster with the full options list which identifies which your car has... wouldn't that be MORE informative without misleading? and probably would lead to even more discussion at car shows.. :)
I like that approach. :) If I ever have a poster made, that is what I am going to do.
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Personally, I'd refrain from using a poster. I have seen twice a poster w/stand get blown into the car from a sudden wind and scratch it. The owners were pissed and one guy I had seen this year, after his car was scratched from his poster last year, decided it wasn't worth the risk or bother to bring some ballast.
I know of one original window sticker on a box Nova and that is because the guy is the original owner. It looks its age too (as well as the original owner). Aside from that, any other window sticker I see I assume it is a reproduction and so far every owner I have asked about it's authenticity tells me it is a repro.
I also keep and show, in the glove box, an original SS/350 protect-o-plate w/ the owners manual it came in but that is for display and discussion purposes as its VIN does not match my convertible. I know they can now make accurate reproductions, but I have no desire to get one.
Like I said, my bar is to restore and have fun with my car the way it left the dealer and I'm not going to let the actions of some devious people hinder that. And when I'm honest and up-front with people when asked about the authenticity of documentation, it will go to show that not everyone out there is intent on being dishonest or purposely misrepresenting this hobby. For the more serious person looking to buy a car with documentation, well, they will always have to do their share of due-diligence to ensure what they are buying is indeed real. That in itself will be a challenge when you look at items like broach marks, re-stamps (blocks, alternators, starters, pulley's t name a few), old previous restorations that today look like originals with patina, etc......And by logic if the market gets saturated with enough of these 'clones' then the price will likely settle down to not make it profitable anymore to make these undeclared clones and we'll be back to the pre-numbers matching days when we had fun owning and driving these cars and not embedded with anxiety. Give it time and the "wheel will turn".
Great discussion guys!
Mike
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Mike, that is fine. Not everyone is going to agree. The guy I parked next to had more money in paint and body work on his car that I have in my whole car! A scratch would be fixed, by me - or by my son who is becoming a very good body technician.
I don't think you would ever try to deceive anyone. The problem is what happens "down the road".
What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate? Have you listed it in the Orphans section? If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?
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Personally, I'd refrain from using a poster. I have seen twice a poster w/stand get blown into the car from a sudden wind and scratch it. The owners were pissed and one guy I had seen this year, after his car was scratched from his poster last year, decided it wasn't worth the risk or bother to bring some ballast.
I know of one original window sticker on a box Nova and that is because the guy is the original owner. It looks its age too (as well as the original owner). Aside from that, any other window sticker I see I assume it is a reproduction and so far every owner I have asked about it's authenticity tells me it is a repro.
I also keep and show, in the glove box, an original SS/350 protect-o-plate w/ the owners manual it came in but that is for display and discussion purposes as its VIN does not match my convertible. I know they can now make accurate reproductions, but I have no desire to get one.
Like I said, my bar is to restore and have fun with my car the way it left the dealer and I'm not going to let the actions of some devious people hinder that. And when I'm honest and up-front with people when asked about the authenticity of documentation, it will go to show that not everyone out there is intent on being dishonest or purposely misrepresenting this hobby. For the more serious person looking to buy a car with documentation, well, they will always have to do their share of due-diligence to ensure what they are buying is indeed real. That in itself will be a challenge when you look at items like broach marks, re-stamps (blocks, alternators, starters, pulley's t name a few), old previous restorations that today look like originals with patina, etc......And by logic if the market gets saturated with enough of these 'clones' then the price will likely settle down to not make it profitable anymore to make these undeclared clones and we'll be back to the pre-numbers matching days when we had fun owning and driving these cars and not embedded with anxiety. Give it time and the "wheel will turn".
Great discussion guys!
Mike
I agree with Mike but understand the concern. I had a repro window sticker made up for our 69 L78 survivor nova I ordered. Have orig ord form, BOS, POP, etc. but window sticker was torn off and trashed when we picked the car up so t thought it was cool on the car.
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Read the 4th article "The Dirty Side of the Hobby – Fake Pedigree & Provenance" to learn how this is viewed in the legal community.
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/
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Excellent article!
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Read the 4th article "The Dirty Side of the Hobby – Fake Pedigree & Provenance" to learn how this is viewed in the legal community.
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/
Agree when anyone tries to "fake" or make something it is not there is an issue. That in my view does not make a repro window sticker in itself dirty laundry. What about repro parts sold as original? Should we view all repro parts as bad for the hobby or just the ones that are very good copies. What about some of the excellent stickers? Should they be looked upon as bad for the hobby because someone bad might use wrongfully? That was a good article Bill and in my home state. Wow, stay married!
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That attorney in the first article, RE: 68 Camaro sold by ex-wife, and all the articles in this publishing, I believe, and in the cited(#4) article William provided is our very own elcamino72, here, on this site.
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I understand why some of you want a good, accurate reproduction WS to display with the car, but I confess I will never understand why you wouldn't accept having some text clearly visible on the front to the effect that it's repro. That would mislead nobody.
The suggestion that a watermark on the rear guarantees no-one could be mistaken in thinking it's real beyond the current owner, obviously discounts someone making a high-quality copy of the front of the document, conveniently resulting in a WS without said watermark.....
No disrespect intended, just my opinion as always.
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I remember reading Colvin's By the Numbers books, and his comment that the actual car should stand on it's own merit independent of paper work. Seems like it's gone full circle. No one piece of evidence is conclusive, it takes examination of all the evidence (paperwork, trim tag, vin, date codes, part no.s, etc.) to make the case. And I have no doubt that even then, there are very had to detect counterfeits.
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I am not really sure what the big deal is on the fake docs.. People do not realize (including many here) just how many fake cars that are out there.. The internet has become a great tool for people to find rare cars & parts as well as the people that make money off of faking these rare cars/parts.. Nothing will really change as people will continue to make reproduction docs and they will continue to become better and better.. Unfortunately sites like this where the issues that are talked about on said docs only gives the fakers corrections for the next batch.. If you have enough money you can buy damn near anything.. I honestly wish GM would release all their documents on all the cars they have ever built if they still have/had them... And if they did Im not sure what the real outcome would be with the amounts of lawsuits that would filed.. The whole "hobby" would probably fall flat on its face. There's your negativity from me for the day..
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Not sure I agree that the hobby would fall on its face if GM had (has) them, and then released them. I think about PHS and the Marti reports, which seem to verify things for the Pontiacs and Ford/Mercury guys. Would there be some lawsuits? sure, but I think it would be on a small percentage of cars. When the NCRS all of a sudden had access to find out which dealer your car came from and the date it was produced, that may have led some guys to realize their cars docs and some components were fake, and may have resulted in some law suits, but I think many guys that don't bother to research, and just take the seller at their word, probably also didn't take the time to order that from the NCRS. I also believe there is a small percentage of us that can recognize a real window sticker vs. a fake.
William, Kurt, James, and others on here, have been great on weighing in on authenticity, and I believe has helped many of us learn how to spot originals, vs. helping the fraudsters make better fakes. There is no way of knowing this, but I am going off of how many fakes are still spotted, or mismatched cars that all of a sudden pop up with an original drivetrain. Hell I thought I found a window sticker from the same dealer as my car, (it was with a 68 Corvair), and it was a fake. So yes fakes are al over, but as Jimmy V alluded to, you have to check over all the docs and stamps.
I agree with Tim though the water mark, or identify-er should be on the front of the window sticker, make that much harder to duplicate, or that much easier to identify as a reproduction.
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I was being a little silly when I said the hobby would fall on its face but this hobby has changed a ton over the past 20 years.. And yes you have to do your homework that is a necessity. But I guess my real point was you are never gonna stop people from making fake docs... and the more they are talked about in a public forum; sooner or later someone will make one that can not be recognized as fake.. My theory has been and always will be that it is great on pointing out the fakes but discussing what is wrong vs what is right on a forum gives anyone with internet access the ability to better their craft.. With knowledge comes power; with power comes corruption.. I think its time for me to step back into the shadows..(http://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/secret.gif)
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I would not want the words 'reproduction' on the front no more than I would want 'reproduction' on the front of any sticker or dealer emblem. You can make the best photo copy in the world of an accurate and aged looking repro window sticker that has the water mark on the back and not have the mark on the new copy. But, you can never duplicate the feel, texture and smell of aged (oxidized) paper with that copy so it won't matter where a watermark is. And if someone is holding an aged looking document but has a new feel and they got burnt then shame on them for not researching. When I have mine done up I'm going to ask the vendor if they can put a 'repro' water mark on the back. It will just be for my own satisfaction regardless how the legal community views it.
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What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate? Have you listed it in the Orphans section? If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?
This was a parts car that I used to replace rear floor boards and the dash top on my convertible back in the early 80's before there were repro body parts. No motor or other drive train components, just an empty body that was eventually junked. The POP was in the glovebox then.
Mike
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What's the VIN on that SS350 protect-o-plate? Have you listed it in the Orphans section? If not, can you send me a pic so it can be added to the database?
This was a parts car that I used to replace rear floor boards and the dash top on my convertible back in the early 80's before there were repro body parts. No motor or other drive train components, just an empty body that was eventually junked. The POP was in the glovebox then.
Mike
OK that's fine. We use the data on the POPs for research purposes, toward color percentages, drivetrain component dates, options....
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Excellent article!
Yes it is, and I would encourage everyone to read it.
My favorite part of the article is the first sentence.
Forgeries and fakes have long been the scourge of the collector car hobby.