Caveat Emptor...another repro window sticker

[william]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Super-Sport-/391487154782?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5b2673ea5e:g:htEAAOSwBPNXR3zN&item=391487154782

Now they are inventing options. F70 x 15 tires were never available on a 1st Gen Camaro.

[1968RSZ28]

VIN: 124379N648547

Paul

[Bryan302]

I noticed something very interesting about the window sticker (bogus) of this car, and the gold Z that William posted recently.  Please compare!  This car has chambered listed and the VIN is after the May 19th cutoff of around 646229!  (And, did anything other than Z's and big blocks get chambered)?  The Gold Z has a Z28 price listed of 473.00 instead of 506.60. 

The main object that I would like to point out that I see, is that it appears that the window stickers were made by the same person, even though the sellers are two different people!  Check out and compare the VIN placement and fonts on the WS between the two cars.  Neither one has the NOR body number to the right of the dealer name!  Neither one has the order number to the right of Chevrolet!  Same format?  What do ya'll think?

Bryan

[william]

The guys that produce fake paperwork think they are providing a service to the hobby. Too often the fake paper travels with the car when it is sold. A few years later, the car is for sale again and there it is displayed in an ad. I've seen 1st gens at Barrett-Jackson displayed with fake paper. Some of the fake paperwork is very convincing.

The NCRS no longer judges Protect-O-Plates because the fakes are so good. All paperwork is headed that way.

[ZLP955]

Surely whether high quality or poor quality, 'restoration' window stickers would be a non-issue for misrepresentation if the watermark or statement as to their creation (such as 'this is a reproduction document') was on the front.

[bcmiller]

Personal opinion only here, but I think EVERY reproduction document should be CLEARLY labelled that way.  Whether it matches up with a car with those exact options on a legitimate car or not.  Paperwork is not common, and cars either have it or they don't.   

[6667ss138]

Personal opinion only here, but I think EVERY reproduction document should be CLEARLY labelled that way.  Whether it matches up with a car with those exact options on a legitimate car or not.  Paperwork is not common, and cars either have it or they don't.   

I second that motion!!

[BULLITT65]

Well Its unfortunate that there is so much reproduction paperwork, (and protect-o-plates), out there or* that it is being seen more and more often now. I wasn't fortunate enough to get the window sticker, but I did get almost everything else with my car. I wonder in the future if it will take a historian, who can study the paperwork, and has a background in authenticating the age of documents to curb some of the new paperwork that is being produced. I think it would be beneficial to have the a organization like the NRCS oversee this authentication process. I am sure guys would pay to have there docs certified.
I can imagine an eBay listing that says " original windows sticker, protect plate, and dealer invoice, Certified by the NCRS" and then have a data base to verify it.
I think it would benefit the hobby. I would like to hear others opinions on this though, so please chime in with your opinions...

[6667ss138]

Austin, I think its a great idea but according to William in post #3 "The NCRS no longer judges Protect-O-Plates because the fakes are so good. All paperwork is headed that way".......It doesn't sound like the NCRS would be an option.
 
Its just a shame that sleasy money has brought all these greedy forgery artists out of the woodwork over the years. In my opinion they have put a big hurt on our hobby and on us honest guys that have invested a lot of money and hard work into our true and original real cars.

Very frustrating!

[Mike S]

 IMO, there is a legit market for repro windows stickers when represented honestly. When I finish my current restoration, I plan on getting an accurate repro window sticker to show only because I am trying to achieve the level as to what the car would have looked like when dealer new. I would not want the words 'repro' on the front otherwise I would not buy it. It can be lightly watermarked 'reproduction' on the back however as long as it's not seen through the paper and on the front. I also don't care if the paper is 'aged' or not.
I think that would satisfy everyone.

Mike

[bcmiller]

Mike, that is your opinion but I don't agree.

A car is what it is.  That is what makes cars that DO have original paperwork special. 

For example, I went to a show on Saturday.  I won best Chevy, with my car.  My car is an old race car, with 20 plus year old paint (except where I had to blend on the passenger side quarter panel where the previous owner had a substandard earlier repair), original (but faded) carpet, seats that are original material (but not originally from my car, they are standard and my car had black hounds tooth originally).  Under the hood it's not anywhere close to original, but still pleasing to the eye. 

I talked with one judge as my great nephew (he is four years old) and I were detailing the car after we pulled in.  We drove through some mud puddles because that is how we had to get to the show area.  Some trailer queens cars didn't have to drive through the mud because those guys just rolled their cars out of trailers and had no detailing to do once parked.  Hell some of them didn't even start their cars!  When my son showed up later, he and I detailed a bit more under the hood and talked to another judge as he was walking around.

Anyway, they judged the cars for what they were.  Point-wise, a car that was driven there was given extra points. Honestly, I probably should not have won.  But I guess presenting the car for what it was paid off.

[Mike S]

Hi Bryon,

   I remember days when driving my prized possession through some mud to get to the show area 
But, in my case it's not for points but more to show the viewing public what the car would have looked like on the dealer floor. I'm more than likely going to put the reproduction 'SPEILMAN' dealer sticker on the back as it was originally because it looks so darn good to me. That's the level I am striving for. As I stated, a reproduction window sticker will be displayed and if anyone asks, and I am sure they will, I will certainly tell them it is a repro. To the public they see what options the car came with and usually chuckle about "how cheap the prices were back then". It would be even better if the words 'reproduction' was on the back this way it will keep the skeptics at bay in case they ask me "well...what happens if you sell the car and the new owner mis-represents it"? For that I'll politely tell them, as I do now, that my cars are willed to my children and what they do after I am dead and buried is up to them if they decide to sell them or not. If a reproduction window sticker has the words "reproduction' imprinted on the back then I can't see how it can be passed off as anything other than a copy.

Mike

[69Z28-RS]

An *option* to this approach, if you want to show what options are on the car, would be to do a print out of the FULL OPTIONS LIST (I think this is available via the CRG website), and then identify which of these options your car came with from the factory (or what you restored it to) seeing that these are generally different with most restorations.  Do a poster with the full options list which identifies which your car has... wouldn't that be MORE informative without misleading?  and probably would lead to even more discussion at car shows..

When I purchased a new car over the years, I always asked them to *leave* the window sticker on the car, and when I got home, I sprayed it down with windex.. which helped it to slide off the window as one piece, but when it dried, it was generally wrinkled and not totally smooth.   The later new cars I've purchased, when I asked them to leave the window sticker, I've been asked if I would like them to remove the sticker and provide it to me.  I don't know what they use to remove the sticker, or if the window stickers are applied with a different glue in modern times, but these window stickers are generally nicer when removed.

If I see a window sticker on an 'old' car from the 50's and 60's, if it isnt' wrinkled/yellowed/even torn a bit...  I'd immediately discount it as being an original window sticker...

[BULLITT65]

I see what you are saying Gary, but I do like seeing the informative window sticker, with correct pricing.

I think a water drop "R" somewhere on the front of the window sticker would do it. I was at a show this past weekend and saw an unrestored 65 Mustang and the owner had the original window sticker loosely inside a plastic stand. It was very refreshing to see the condition of the car, and the original paperwork. I suggested she scan the original for safe keeping and just keep a nice copy to show people. The original paperwork is to valuable to have somebody swipe it, or a freak accident happen and it is gone. This car wasn't worth a bunch, but why take the chance.

For what you are suggesting Gary you would have to have a price sheet that showed all the options, and pricing, and then updates when pricing went up through the year? I think that is a bit TMI. I am not so worried about what is on display at a show, as is what is passed off as original when the car changes hands.

[bcmiller]

An *option* to this approach, if you want to show what options are on the car, would be to do a print out of the FULL OPTIONS LIST (I think this is available via the CRG website), and then identify which of these options your car came with from the factory (or what you restored it to) seeing that these are generally different with most restorations.  Do a poster with the full options list which identifies which your car has... wouldn't that be MORE informative without misleading?  and probably would lead to even more discussion at car shows..

I like that approach.    If I ever have a poster made, that is what I am going to do.