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Author Topic: Black Firewall Paint  (Read 29278 times)
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2006, 07:12:05 PM »

Quote
I'll step down off my soap box now...
lol  Smiley

I feel for what your saying firstgenaddict, but an equally valid argument would be that we should restore our cars to factory specification.
If the factory spec called for the firewall to be blacked out to the top edge, then perhaps that's how it should be restored.

I understand the rationale of that argument, however; if we go with that line of thought then there should be no overspray on any floor pans, no visible chalk marks on the firewall (they were blacked out with the firewall), no overspray on the exahust manifolds, or bellhousings, They only were partially painted and then only when it was overspray due to proximity to a cast iron part being painted.

That can of worms is just incredible.

There was a thread on TC where I believe Supercar Workshop restored a camaro and they put the dust flaps on the inner fenders with the flaps on the inside of the engine compartment instead of in the wheel wells. Charlie says to the guys nice resto or something to that effect then says you put the dust shields in wrong... they replied that they were installed like that from the factory and they had the photos during the disassembly to prove it. I believe that he said hey if that was how it was then that is how you should put it back. 
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
nuch_ss396
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« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2006, 11:37:14 PM »

Quote
I'll step down off my soap box now...
lol  Smiley

I feel for what your saying firstgenaddict, but an equally valid argument would be that we should restore our cars to factory specification.
If the factory spec called for the firewall to be blacked out to the top edge, then perhaps that's how it should be restored.

But he's restoring the car to the way "IT" left the factory, not the way the spec. called for.........  Isn't that a restoration afterall?
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69 SS 396, Hugger Orange, D/80, D/90
Chambered Exhaust, N/66, THM400, 3:73 posi

Steve A.
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2006, 11:52:31 PM »

My point exactly...
I believe that the definition of Restore is "to return to previous/former state" anything but returning it to how "it" was built would be a modification... not a restoration. Makes you think...
The perfect cars are what has led to the surge of interest in the original cars... unrestored, they are what they are no repainting, correcting imperfections, etc... 
I would pass out if I saw a car restored like they were really built... It would be hilarious to see the "know it alls" pointing out what is "wrong" with the restoration.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
JohnZ
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« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2006, 10:03:47 AM »

That's why it's important to have real original unrestored/unmolested cars to examine and use as educational properties when developing a judging standard, which is why NCRS has the "Star/Bowtie" judging category just for that kind of car. Star/Bowtie judging is done solely based on absolute originality, with no concern whatever for condition; Bloomington Gold has a similar category called "Survivor" judging. The judging standard for restored cars (NCRS Flight Judging) has been developed over the last 30 years based on observations of known-original cars as well as with Chevrolet Engineering documentation and an incredible amount of research at the part number level, and the 100 page-plus judging guides for each year car are revised every couple of years based on continuing observation and research by 15,000 members - we continue to learn as we go along.
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'69 Z/28
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Pex68
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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2006, 07:19:54 PM »

I totally agree, we learn from all the survivor cars out there but no one knows for sure how EVERY car came off the line and if by some rare chance I am the proud owner of the ONLY Sequoia Green Camaro that left the factory with a body colored firewall and I go and paint it black because that's how the manual said it should be done, what good does that bring the hobby?  I'm not saying that anyone should be able to do whatever they want and say "that's how it was!"  There needs to be documentation of some sort.  And this doesn’t even pertain to all aspects of the restoration, i.e., it would be very hard to prove any bolt on parts, even the dust shields, left the factory that way because they could have been changed at any time before the car was restored.  In my case we're talking paint here, and when I bought the car, the paint on the firewall was original, and yes, to restore a car correctly, you replace as little as possible and put things back as close as possible to the way you found them.
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Chris P
1968 Sequoia Green SS 396/325 M20
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2006, 08:06:11 AM »

Chirs,
I am in total agreement with you, if there is supporting documentation... photos during the disassembly etc... photos from when the car was new, then there should not be any question from the judges as to whether it is correct, even if their manuals say that it is not.

What is going to happen when someone brings an authentic restoration to a show?
One that has runs in the doorjambs, scratches in the subframe paint, and scratches all over the brackets and little parts.
Believe it or not the little parts were not packaged individually with bubble wrap when they were delivered from the manufacturer to the assembly plants. HA HA
They were bulk loaded in bins... JohnZ correct me if I am wrong...
Guys paying $100,000 for a resto would not tolerate the lack of attention to detail that the cars originally had, although they should insist on an authentic restoration if they are paying that kind of money. IMHO.

Ok ... off the soap box  Wink
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
lakeholme
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« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2006, 08:57:05 AM »

FYI, in 1987 AACA developed an entire juding (and awards) classification called Historical Preservation of Original Features (HPOF), which is to preserve all brands and models.
From the 2006 Juges Manual: "In the furtherance of the “preservation” mission, the
AACA Board of Directors in 1987 established a program to encourage the saving and display of collector vehicles in their original, as-manufactured condition."
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2006, 09:13:41 AM »

The problem in the past with the AACA (I have first hand experience my mother and father are both past presidents of the local chapter and have hosted national and Grand National events) is that they did not learn to judge the cars correctly. They would score a car that had everything painted black on the chassis the same as they would one that had everything detailed correctly. It really put off the guys who had spent hundreds of hours detailing their cars to the N-th degree. The worst part was they did not seem to want to learn either... they have since come around but not until they hemmoraged members.
Many of them started their own Camaro, Chevelle, Mustang only clubs so that their efforts would be recognized.
My dad had asked me 15 years ago how their club could attract younger members and that is what I told him back then...
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
lakeholme
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« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2006, 04:06:41 PM »

First, I don't want to turn this thread too far away from its original question...
But several months ago, I tried to start a thread on judging and got little response...
they did not learn to judge the cars correctly.
Actually, I agree with that criticism of AACA.  But I think the real issue is around the word "correctly".  What is correct depends on the organization doing the judging and where they set their standards.  Presently, a 1st Generation Camaro would be judged in one of two classifications according to year and would be judged against practically everything else manufactured that year by anybody (except Mustangs)... and only factory documentation would be considered, not your pictures, etc.  I have seen Camaros win in their classification, however, both locally and nationally in recent years.  The point is that those owners know what is "correct" in that organizatiions judging standards.
I've figured from JohnZ and others comments that there isn't a very clear set of JUDGING standards for Camaros.  Wouldn't it be great if there were? Huh Huh Huh  I wonder if CRG isn't a good place to start!!!
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2006, 01:12:35 AM »

I believe that it would be the PERFECT place to begin.
Something like the NCRS has in place, a standard for every year including common & not so common deviations from the norm.
A judging manual for every year, that breaks the car into sub sections and then components with finishes, part numbers, or casting numbers.
That way the same exact process could be followed on each car, there would be less room for personal preference to bias the scores.
Like an ISO guide for Camaro's.  Grin
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
67CruiseMaster
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Original 67 Camaro w/Cruise Control & 41 options

Wolfy948
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2006, 08:53:11 PM »

Those are very good pictures, is that the hidden vin by the heater core? It looks like norwood did it a little different then L.A. mine has a/c, and there isn't much firewall showing, I wonder if that would make a difference?

Not sure on 68 but in 67 LOS didn't use hidden VIN's. I beleive that 68 didn't either.

Buddy
Ahh, yes they did, both of my LOS cars have them.
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Scot
Curious to see how Camaro First Gen body structure is put together?
Click the link below to see those pictures,
other car reference pictures and the progress of my
car being restored
http://webpages.charter.net/k30ssrs/
x77-69z28
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« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2006, 10:26:34 PM »

phil, did you get the pics i tried to send you?
buddy
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
lakeholme
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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2006, 09:01:42 AM »

Yes!  Thanks! And sorry to be so much trouble.
So the 67 stampings really were "hidden".
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
cib12
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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2007, 08:39:49 PM »

on this hidden vin- my 69 rs-ss350 also had a vin on the rail (towards the front of the drivers door) just underneath the carpeting - it has air- havent got that far yet to check there
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flyingskibiker
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 04:33:50 AM »

Wow!  I hope my car looks like that when I'm done!  Well, except for the tires and vinyl top...  I guess I really know what color my car is (no cowl tag).  The (good parts of the) paint is the same colors as yours.  '68 SS Sequoia Green w/ White Bumble Bee stripe...  Nice!

Great thread, BTW.

Chris B. ! lol

Lakeholme,

Thanks, think we all learned a little, I know I did!!!
I would like to thank everyone who chimed in, that's what makes it great! Grin
Here's some Pic's of my car from Englishtown last fall.



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