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Author Topic: Black Firewall Paint  (Read 28561 times)
Pex68
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« on: November 16, 2005, 11:50:47 AM »

Here's a question I would like to get a lot replies on.
I have a 68 Sequoia Green SS 12D build car that I am the second owner of, was purchased from an estate sale where the original owner was a construction company owner and had passed in an crane accident and the estate was tied up for 15+ years and the car just sat.  The car was mostly original when purchased, T3's still working, all original interior without a tear (seat foam just rotting), even had original belts and hoses on the engine.  The car was repainted once (outside only-all paint in door jams, under hood, cowl area, under trunk original-you could see the tape lines) due to an accident that took out the drivers fender and door and the original vinyl top was removed. Someone also went through the engine compartment with black spray paint too because there was overspray on everything including the dirt and grease.(I guess in an attempt to pretty it up for the sale)  Some things were changed like shocks, tires, antenna, exhaust, plugs, wires, cap & rotor. Here's the thing, my firewall/bottom side of hood was NOT painted black but was body color so when I restored her, I did not paint the firewall/bottom of hood black but had to have the tail pan black so that's what I did.  I have been questioned several times about it and KNOW I read somewhere (never to be found again) that certain colors did not get the black-out treatment due to an enamel/lacquer mismatch.  I also was told by a reputable person at nationals that it was incorrect even after the above explanation.  I have photos of factory crayon marks that ran under the blower cover and numerous pic’s of the firewall during teardown all showing body color, no black except for some little spots where there's overspray from the fool with the spraybomb. 
My questions are;
Am I correct about the paint mismatch or did I dream that?
Did certain color cars come from the factory with body color firewalls?
Does anyone else have a Sequoia Green SS where the firewall is NOT painted black?
Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thank's in advance, Chris.
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Chris P
1968 Sequoia Green SS 396/325 M20
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2005, 12:01:47 PM »

I've never seen a full body-color firewall, although others may have. The bottom of the hood wasn't "blacked-out"; it had black dip or flow-coat prime on it, and only the top surface and edges were sprayed with body color - there was no access to spray body color on the inner panel, as the hood was mounted on a conveyor buck with the header, fenders, and valance in car position with about an inch between panels. The body shell from the firewall back was painted by Fisher Body (who blacked-out the firewall and the rear wheel openings after color), and the exterior sheet metal from the firewall forward was painted in a separate plant by Chevrolet.

See the "First-Generation Camaro Assembly Process" paper in the "CRG Reports" block at the top of the page for more Paint Shop process detail.
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mr396
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2005, 09:08:19 PM »

Allright another sequoia green camaro owner. Cool. I didn't know how cool  sequoia green was untill I saw one. here is a picture of the cowl on my sequoia green camaro.                             


It looks to me like it was primered then body color.see the tag area it's painted body color.This is a 68,000 mjle original camaro.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 09:22:25 PM by mr396 » Logged

1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2005, 09:55:47 PM »

I agree with John, the bottom of the hood has been repainted.
Quote
...that certain colors did not get the black-out treatment due to an enamel/lacquer mismatch
There was no issue with the types of paints. They only used lacquer. And the blackout of the firewall did not vary by model, every car should have gotten it, regardless of color. The blackout was to make the firewall uniform.
Can you post pics showing this?

Not uncommon to see some body color on the tag and the top of the firewall. The firewall blackout didn't always cover the top edge. I'm interested in seeing any pics of a car having color on the main part of the firewall.

I know of one car that did have green on the firewall. A silver 69. I need to ask for some more details on that car.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2005, 10:28:02 PM »

I asked this same question a couple of years ago concerning my Sequoia Green car. When I took everything off of the firewall during the most recent restoration (there have been a few of them over the past 27 years), there was body color on the firewall. Things like the blower box, master cylinder, accelerator rod bracket, etc. did not have black paint under them. I repainted it green and did not use any blackout. It may not be correct, but as near as I could tell at the time, that's the way it was when it left the factory.
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mr396
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2005, 03:07:08 PM »

It looks like its black up to the seam with primer above the seam.the top of the cowl is body color.the tag area has a lot of green body color paint,so it looks like they primered it, then painted it black up to the seam and didn't masked it. and painted the top of the cowl body color with a little more body color paint sprayed over the trim tag area.hope this helps.
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
Pex68
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 01:19:31 PM »

Nice, Sequoia green Camaro owners unite! 
Mr396, I see you also have a vinyl top...Me Too!  I also see your car is a Norwood car, maybe that denotes a difference, is it solid black from the seam down, everywhere?.   
JohnKY, as stated, mine was like yours, no black anywhere, by chance is your car a LOS-Van Nuys car?  We could be on to something! Smiley

I'll post some pic's of mine ASAP, Could you guys also email me some more pics of your cars, would love to see them!

Any other Sequoia green Camaro owners out there???
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Chris P
1968 Sequoia Green SS 396/325 M20
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 01:27:30 PM »

There was an excellent book "The Great Camaro" written many years ago. In it there is an assembly line photo of the front sheet metal being positioned on a '67 body. The firewall is clearly body color.

The photo could be staged, could be a pilot car. Take it with a grain of salt. No one has seen every car built.
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Pex68
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 02:50:02 PM »

Here's some pictures from the teardown, note----the black paint on the lower portions of the firewall where the inner fenders would meet, right above the the frame mounts is overspray from when they rattle-caned the inner fenders and not from the factory.  You can see it in the last pic on the brake lines also.  Also note the missing wire harness hanger to the right of the trim plate, not a hint of black, just rust...







« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 03:02:44 PM by Pex68 » Logged

Chris P
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2005, 03:59:29 PM »

Those are very good pictures, is that the hidden vin by the heater core? It looks like norwood did it a little different then L.A. mine has a/c, and there isn't much firewall showing, I wonder if that would make a difference?
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2005, 05:56:06 PM »

Pex68, mine is a Norwood car, 05C.
Just a couple of questions on your pictures: Are the steering column seal and the plastic plug for the stock speedometer cable hole painted green? These would have been installed on the Chevrolet side, and shouldn't have any paint on them. It's hard to tell from the pictures; they may just be dirty. Heater core appears to have overspray also, but that might be oxidation of the brass, again, it's hard to tell from the pictures.
BTW, what happened to the wiring harness "hook"? Did it break off?
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JohnZ
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2005, 11:19:45 AM »

Firewall blackout at Fisher Body wasn't a "concours" operation, and coverage varied greatly; the photo below is my untouched original Norwood 02D car, which shows pretty much Fathom Green body color above the plenum seam, and blackout below it. Some cars had blackout further up, some didn't - it was done with a hand-held shield (not tape and paper), and sometimes the sprayers used the shield, sometimes they didn't.

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Pex68
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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2005, 02:41:44 AM »

JohnKY, No paint on the seal, gromment, or heatercore, it's just dirt & the pictures-pic 3 is a better shot of the heater core.  As for the wire harness hook, I guess it just fell off, was missing when I got the car.  Spot on the firewall hardly even looked like it had something there so it must have been a real poor attempt by the spotwelder.

Mr396, yep, that's the hidden vin under the blower case.

Looks like so far I'm the only one with a LOS car, anyone else with a LOS car want to chime in???

Thanks for all the responses so far too!!!

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Chris P
1968 Sequoia Green SS 396/325 M20
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2005, 09:20:04 AM »

Those are very good pictures, is that the hidden vin by the heater core? It looks like norwood did it a little different then L.A. mine has a/c, and there isn't much firewall showing, I wonder if that would make a difference?

Not sure on 68 but in 67 LOS didn't use hidden VIN's. I beleive that 68 didn't either.

Buddy
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JohnZ
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2005, 01:02:59 PM »

Those are very good pictures, is that the hidden vin by the heater core? It looks like norwood did it a little different then L.A. mine has a/c, and there isn't much firewall showing, I wonder if that would make a difference?

Not sure on 68 but in 67 LOS didn't use hidden VIN's. I beleive that 68 didn't either.

Buddy

Are you sure? It was a Federal requirement on all cars.
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Pex68
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2005, 05:12:24 PM »

DEFINATELY the VIN, I thought they all had it.  I've had numerous Camaros over the years, mostly second gen, and can attest that all second gens had them there.  Still have a 78 & 80, KNOW its there on those cars.
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Chris P
1968 Sequoia Green SS 396/325 M20
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2005, 02:00:58 AM »

Not sure on 68 but in 67 LOS didn't use hidden VIN's. I beleive that 68 didn't either.

Buddy
That would be incorrect. I have pics of partial VINs from both 67 & 68 LOS cars.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2005, 08:51:16 AM »

There are no hidden VIN's on my 67 LOS car. I can't remember my research but I was told that LOS didn't use hidden VIN's.  Maybe someone here has a LOS car with hidden VIN's? ANYBODY?

Now I have to research again....aarrgg!!   thx John Angry Cheesy

Buddy
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2005, 08:55:09 AM »

Sorry Kurt, missed your post. I would love to see a Pic of the 67 LOS hidden VIN.   Why would my LOS car not have it? Beleive me I looked hard.

Thx
Buddy
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Buddy
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2005, 09:10:27 AM »

This was my original post from the old board "Partial Vin #s (views: 1) -- Buddy67 -- 19-February-02, 12:00"

Bill replied that some LOS cars had no VIN stamp on the cowl but probably under the heater. This is what I thought I remembered but why does my car have no VIN stamps? There is some markings under the heater but not VIN. I will post a pic asap for some hopeful help.

Thx
Buddy
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GIBSTER
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2005, 09:29:53 PM »

 Wink  My los 67 has the vin by the blower motor, The inside of the right rear frame rail, and on the underside of the tunnel, (can't remember exactly where)
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2005, 01:49:52 AM »

anybody  heard of partial vin#s on the frame rails,tunnel or anyplace else besides the cowl and the heater blower area thats a first for me.I'm not doubting you Gibster just never heard that before.
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KurtS
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2005, 04:15:34 PM »

GIBSTER,
Can you post pics of the VIN's in those locations?
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Kurt S
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2005, 03:41:38 PM »

While I was sandblasting the bottom of my 67 is when I saw the numbers and just figured they were vin #s. they are not.The only one that is a vin is under the blower motor housing. sorry for my confusion 
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69z28rsbilly
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2005, 09:51:44 PM »

if you are missing the hidden vin under the blower motor heater box, look directly down from where the the vin is supposed to be,and look way down where the sheetmetal angles back,sometimes you will find a partial vin there.sorry dont have any pictures.
i have found this to be true on 2 early build 69 camaros.
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2005, 01:06:53 PM »

Hey guys,

New to the forum but I wanted to add on this one. I have a 12C 68 RS that is Tuxedo Black and was original paint and unrestored when I purchased it in 04. I had wondered the same thing about the firewall black because when I disassembled the car I noticed the firewall was fairly shiny for being 35+ years old. I've seen other lighter colored cars and noticed the very "rough" black paint edge at the top of the firewall. It may be a little more practical that a black car wouldn't get the 30% black treatment. Any other Tuxedo owners out there?
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Pex68
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2006, 06:35:49 PM »

I'm still convinced that although 99.5% of the cars got the blackout, some did not.  68 was a strike year at GM and I've been told that it's not uncommon to find all sorts of "strange" things on cars that year.
Still want more Sequoia Green owners to chime in Smiley
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Chris P
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2006, 08:41:58 PM »

Chris,
If I remember correctly you have said that you plan on entering this car in Bowtie judging this year at Carlisle?

I've seen your car and it's extremely nice and I'm not taking anything away from it but if you plan on having it judged in the higher classes such as Bowtie I want you to know that without supporting documentation (which I believe does not exist) you will loose major points for that painted firewall. And I highly doubt you will be able to convince the judges that the painted firewall is correct.

I have yet to see a Camaro come through the upper levels of judging without a blacked out firewall.

Again I am not taking anything away from your car but just want to give you a heads up.

Rick H.
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Pex68
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2006, 10:00:59 PM »

Rick,

I hear where you’re coming from and appreciate the heads up.  I talked to allot of people at Carlisle last year and was told the same thing by all of them and all asked if I had photo documentation and then was still told by some that it didn't matter!  Do you think the photos posted above will not be enough supporting documentation and if not what would be?  I honestly believe (since I am the on who took the car apart) that the firewall had the original paint on it and was never re-sprayed.  I seriously doubt that someone would re-produce the crayon marks by the blower hole if it was re-sprayed.  I wish I had known about Jerry M and that he was right in Maryland at that time because I would have asked him to come up to look at it before I went any further.  Can't turn back time so now I'm stuck deciding whether I should stick to my belief or bite the bullet and do what everyone say's is correct.    Thanks for the compliments on the car too!
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Chris P
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2006, 10:15:53 PM »

I asked this same question a couple of years ago concerning my Sequoia Green car. When I took everything off of the firewall during the most recent restoration (there have been a few of them over the past 27 years), there was body color on the firewall. Things like the blower box, master cylinder, accelerator rod bracket, etc. did not have black paint under them. I repainted it green and did not use any blackout. It may not be correct, but as near as I could tell at the time, that's the way it was when it left the factory.

Just re-read this thread again and not sure why I didn't ask before but JohnKY, if your out there, do you have any pic's from when you pulled your car apart???  That would help a great deal.  Also, what answers did you get when you asked around?

Thanks, Chris.
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Chris P
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2006, 10:19:56 PM »

Chris,
I honestly do not think that the photos will prove anything to the judges. I also believe that Jerry or anybody else would have told you to paint the firewall if you plan on having the car judged.
The car is extremely nice and I believe I also mentioned that to you last year as well. (I own the 67 Granada Gold RS).

I have seen body color (very faint) under the blower motor and the same markings in the corner cowl sections on a few cars  but I have not seen a body colored original firewall. Believe me I have had access to a lot of 67-69 Camaros the past few years.

You did a great job on the car and to be honest if you want to score big this year I would paint the firewall correctly. If you plan on going higher in the judging I would seriously consider it. That is only my opinion and it's your car so you be the judge. No pun intended.

Giood luck and I will see you at Carlisle.

Rick H.

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Pex68
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2006, 10:34:21 PM »

Rick,

Thanks for the advice; I do remember talking with you now (bad with names, good with cars!)  I see I have a big dilemma now! 

Any chance you still have some of those trunk light wiring clips laying around??? Grin Grin Grin

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Chris P
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2006, 10:50:42 PM »

Chris,
I just might have a couple of those clips, I'll look this weekend. They are very hard to come by.

Rick H.
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Brian K
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2006, 12:26:16 AM »

Rick's Camaro new 2006 now has the correct trunk light clips, they where also used on 63-67 Corvettes on the rad support to hold the wire for the horns.
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RickH
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2006, 11:38:46 AM »

The clips Rick shows in the catalog are not correct. The correct clip is half the size and is rubber coated on one half to protect the wire.

Chris, I have a couple of the correct clips for you.

Rick H.
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Brian K
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2006, 08:07:32 PM »

Sorry Rick but on page 121 of the new 2006 Ricks catalog he does have the correct trunk light clips number HW-10 price $8.95 for 3 (just like your correct description). I know this becase my 67 has these same clips (only 2 when I bought the car back in 1979 I found a third on a original mid year corvette rad support). I alway check the new catalogs when they come out for correct items. Last years book didn't have them it has the style you referenced to as being long and wrong, which is on page 115 of that catalog and has the same part number HW-10 but price is $10.95 and they are wrong. I've also seen them for sale on eBay by that Jkeefe guy who is always selling Nos Camaro bolts. Sincerely Brian
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2006, 08:34:56 PM »

I just want to thank Chris for starting this great discussion.  I learned a lot just reading through it.
A word about documentation: I went through an AACA judging school last year, mainly for my own edification.  While their judging is not model specific, they are very strict about what they accept for documentation.  It must be information from the manufacturer.
If there are any recognized Camaro judges out there, it would be great to know their standards.  Before the juding school, I would have said they should have told Chris those things.  But I now know only the head judge is supposed to talk to the car owner, and that is done only if the owner asks.
Also, after hearing these guys say what a great looking car Chris has, I'd love to see some pictures!  I remember 68 well.  Green was cool in 68.
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Phillip
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2006, 05:11:59 AM »

Lakeholme,

Thanks, think we all learned a little, I know I did!!!
I would like to thank everyone who chimed in, that's what makes it great! Grin
Here's some Pic's of my car from Englishtown last fall.


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Chris P
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2006, 09:21:06 AM »

Brian,
Well I'll be, they sure do look correct. Must have grabbed the 2005 catalog. But are they original???  Grin Grin

Chris, I'm dropping a couple original clips in the mail for you.

Rick H.
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« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2006, 01:23:22 AM »

I do not understand why he is being told to restore his car in a different manner then how it left the factory. (appeasing judges just to make the car fit their idea of a correct restoration does nothing to advance our or anyone else's knowledge of the vehicles and their subtle differences)
Everyone is continuosly learning more and more... If it left the factory with a Sequoia oversprayed firewall then that is how it should be restored... to hell with the judges.

I'll step down off my soap box now...
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2006, 12:01:12 PM »

Quote
I'll step down off my soap box now...
lol  Smiley

I feel for what your saying firstgenaddict, but an equally valid argument would be that we should restore our cars to factory specification.
If the factory spec called for the firewall to be blacked out to the top edge, then perhaps that's how it should be restored.
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Rob
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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2006, 03:55:58 PM »

I do not consider that an equally valid argument. But that is just MHO.
If we are going to become educated about these cars we have to be willing to accept things other than the "norm".
They were production automobiles built by humans... and unless you are my wife... humans make mistakes.
In Jerry's book there is a factory photo of a white striped Z and there is HEAVY white overspray all the way down the firewall,
What would the judges say about that car? What if they were provided with the factory photo?
The disassembly photos of the Sequoia Green car's firewall are compelling evidence that the car was built that way...
When a car show judge says that he "knows" how the car was built, and is not open to alternatives, few of the current collectors/judges (short of JohnZ) were ever in the plants when the cars were being built.

ONCE AGAIN... I will say that if you had a time machine and traveled back and bought a brand new 69 Z brought it to the present and put it in a car show...IT WOULD NOT EVEN PLACE.

My opinion is that if you are going to over restore it... you might as well just chrome everything... both ways are incorrect!
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2006, 04:44:00 PM »

Not ony would it NOT EVEN PLACE, The 1969 Yenko clone next to you wins 1st place for original restored. Huh
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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2006, 11:47:19 PM »

Well it took long enough for SOMEONE to reply that has the same feelings as me!!!!  THANK YOU firstgenaddict!!!
I ended up leaving the Sequoia green firewall for Camaro Nationals this year and thanks to the exposure on this forum and some awesome judges at the show I didn't loose any points for it in Bowtie (although I did take some grief from ONE of the Judges Cheesy) and ended up with 965/1000!!!!  I even got Best of Show for all of GM Nationals from USMCF (United States Muscle Car Federation) Grin Grin Grin  I did grab Jerry and asked his opinion on what would happen in Legends and he said I would loose MAJOR points in that class due to the firewall and photos did not matter.  I found this very discouraging and now have the dreaded decision once again on what to do.  I really am proud of my car and all the attention it gets since all the work has been done myself except the paint and really wanted to take it as far as I could but like I said, I KNOW the firewall was body color, not black, and I really don't want to paint it black because that's the way it "should have" been.  I'm not looking for the points to bring value to the car either 'cause I'll never sell it.  It's more about pride.

Thanks for all the views and replies and keep them coming, I get a stupid joy out of starting the thread with most views!!!!! 
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Chris P
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« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2006, 02:01:22 AM »

Exactly... you did your research and you know how it came.
Ideas are only radical and their promoters are labeled crazy when the ideas are not believed by the masses... once an idea is accepted you don't have to risk anything (pride, ego, reputation) in order to embrace it. 
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James
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« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2006, 07:12:05 PM »

Quote
I'll step down off my soap box now...
lol  Smiley

I feel for what your saying firstgenaddict, but an equally valid argument would be that we should restore our cars to factory specification.
If the factory spec called for the firewall to be blacked out to the top edge, then perhaps that's how it should be restored.

I understand the rationale of that argument, however; if we go with that line of thought then there should be no overspray on any floor pans, no visible chalk marks on the firewall (they were blacked out with the firewall), no overspray on the exahust manifolds, or bellhousings, They only were partially painted and then only when it was overspray due to proximity to a cast iron part being painted.

That can of worms is just incredible.

There was a thread on TC where I believe Supercar Workshop restored a camaro and they put the dust flaps on the inner fenders with the flaps on the inside of the engine compartment instead of in the wheel wells. Charlie says to the guys nice resto or something to that effect then says you put the dust shields in wrong... they replied that they were installed like that from the factory and they had the photos during the disassembly to prove it. I believe that he said hey if that was how it was then that is how you should put it back. 
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2006, 11:37:14 PM »

Quote
I'll step down off my soap box now...
lol  Smiley

I feel for what your saying firstgenaddict, but an equally valid argument would be that we should restore our cars to factory specification.
If the factory spec called for the firewall to be blacked out to the top edge, then perhaps that's how it should be restored.

But he's restoring the car to the way "IT" left the factory, not the way the spec. called for.........  Isn't that a restoration afterall?
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« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2006, 11:52:31 PM »

My point exactly...
I believe that the definition of Restore is "to return to previous/former state" anything but returning it to how "it" was built would be a modification... not a restoration. Makes you think...
The perfect cars are what has led to the surge of interest in the original cars... unrestored, they are what they are no repainting, correcting imperfections, etc... 
I would pass out if I saw a car restored like they were really built... It would be hilarious to see the "know it alls" pointing out what is "wrong" with the restoration.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2006, 10:03:47 AM »

That's why it's important to have real original unrestored/unmolested cars to examine and use as educational properties when developing a judging standard, which is why NCRS has the "Star/Bowtie" judging category just for that kind of car. Star/Bowtie judging is done solely based on absolute originality, with no concern whatever for condition; Bloomington Gold has a similar category called "Survivor" judging. The judging standard for restored cars (NCRS Flight Judging) has been developed over the last 30 years based on observations of known-original cars as well as with Chevrolet Engineering documentation and an incredible amount of research at the part number level, and the 100 page-plus judging guides for each year car are revised every couple of years based on continuing observation and research by 15,000 members - we continue to learn as we go along.
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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2006, 07:19:54 PM »

I totally agree, we learn from all the survivor cars out there but no one knows for sure how EVERY car came off the line and if by some rare chance I am the proud owner of the ONLY Sequoia Green Camaro that left the factory with a body colored firewall and I go and paint it black because that's how the manual said it should be done, what good does that bring the hobby?  I'm not saying that anyone should be able to do whatever they want and say "that's how it was!"  There needs to be documentation of some sort.  And this doesn’t even pertain to all aspects of the restoration, i.e., it would be very hard to prove any bolt on parts, even the dust shields, left the factory that way because they could have been changed at any time before the car was restored.  In my case we're talking paint here, and when I bought the car, the paint on the firewall was original, and yes, to restore a car correctly, you replace as little as possible and put things back as close as possible to the way you found them.
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« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2006, 08:06:11 AM »

Chirs,
I am in total agreement with you, if there is supporting documentation... photos during the disassembly etc... photos from when the car was new, then there should not be any question from the judges as to whether it is correct, even if their manuals say that it is not.

What is going to happen when someone brings an authentic restoration to a show?
One that has runs in the doorjambs, scratches in the subframe paint, and scratches all over the brackets and little parts.
Believe it or not the little parts were not packaged individually with bubble wrap when they were delivered from the manufacturer to the assembly plants. HA HA
They were bulk loaded in bins... JohnZ correct me if I am wrong...
Guys paying $100,000 for a resto would not tolerate the lack of attention to detail that the cars originally had, although they should insist on an authentic restoration if they are paying that kind of money. IMHO.

Ok ... off the soap box  Wink
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2006, 08:57:05 AM »

FYI, in 1987 AACA developed an entire juding (and awards) classification called Historical Preservation of Original Features (HPOF), which is to preserve all brands and models.
From the 2006 Juges Manual: "In the furtherance of the “preservation” mission, the
AACA Board of Directors in 1987 established a program to encourage the saving and display of collector vehicles in their original, as-manufactured condition."
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Phillip
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« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2006, 09:13:41 AM »

The problem in the past with the AACA (I have first hand experience my mother and father are both past presidents of the local chapter and have hosted national and Grand National events) is that they did not learn to judge the cars correctly. They would score a car that had everything painted black on the chassis the same as they would one that had everything detailed correctly. It really put off the guys who had spent hundreds of hours detailing their cars to the N-th degree. The worst part was they did not seem to want to learn either... they have since come around but not until they hemmoraged members.
Many of them started their own Camaro, Chevelle, Mustang only clubs so that their efforts would be recognized.
My dad had asked me 15 years ago how their club could attract younger members and that is what I told him back then...
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2006, 04:06:41 PM »

First, I don't want to turn this thread too far away from its original question...
But several months ago, I tried to start a thread on judging and got little response...
they did not learn to judge the cars correctly.
Actually, I agree with that criticism of AACA.  But I think the real issue is around the word "correctly".  What is correct depends on the organization doing the judging and where they set their standards.  Presently, a 1st Generation Camaro would be judged in one of two classifications according to year and would be judged against practically everything else manufactured that year by anybody (except Mustangs)... and only factory documentation would be considered, not your pictures, etc.  I have seen Camaros win in their classification, however, both locally and nationally in recent years.  The point is that those owners know what is "correct" in that organizatiions judging standards.
I've figured from JohnZ and others comments that there isn't a very clear set of JUDGING standards for Camaros.  Wouldn't it be great if there were? Huh Huh Huh  I wonder if CRG isn't a good place to start!!!
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Phillip
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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2006, 01:12:35 AM »

I believe that it would be the PERFECT place to begin.
Something like the NCRS has in place, a standard for every year including common & not so common deviations from the norm.
A judging manual for every year, that breaks the car into sub sections and then components with finishes, part numbers, or casting numbers.
That way the same exact process could be followed on each car, there would be less room for personal preference to bias the scores.
Like an ISO guide for Camaro's.  Grin
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2006, 08:53:11 PM »

Those are very good pictures, is that the hidden vin by the heater core? It looks like norwood did it a little different then L.A. mine has a/c, and there isn't much firewall showing, I wonder if that would make a difference?

Not sure on 68 but in 67 LOS didn't use hidden VIN's. I beleive that 68 didn't either.

Buddy
Ahh, yes they did, both of my LOS cars have them.
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Scot
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« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2006, 10:26:34 PM »

phil, did you get the pics i tried to send you?
buddy
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2006, 09:01:42 AM »

Yes!  Thanks! And sorry to be so much trouble.
So the 67 stampings really were "hidden".
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Phillip
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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2007, 08:39:49 PM »

on this hidden vin- my 69 rs-ss350 also had a vin on the rail (towards the front of the drivers door) just underneath the carpeting - it has air- havent got that far yet to check there
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 04:33:50 AM »

Wow!  I hope my car looks like that when I'm done!  Well, except for the tires and vinyl top...  I guess I really know what color my car is (no cowl tag).  The (good parts of the) paint is the same colors as yours.  '68 SS Sequoia Green w/ White Bumble Bee stripe...  Nice!

Great thread, BTW.

Chris B. ! lol

Lakeholme,

Thanks, think we all learned a little, I know I did!!!
I would like to thank everyone who chimed in, that's what makes it great! Grin
Here's some Pic's of my car from Englishtown last fall.



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« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2010, 10:48:33 AM »

Welcome aboard Chris!  Sequoia is an AWESSOME color!  Good luck with your car and post or send me some pic's!
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Chris P
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2010, 11:32:53 PM »

Yes, it IS a great color!  I'll take some pics and post some as I work on it.  The pics of the exterior will be kind of selective.  Like only the patches where the paint is still decent... lol
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« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2010, 06:58:08 PM »

I'm still convinced that although 99.5% of the cars got the blackout, some did not.  68 was a strike year at GM and I've been told that it's not uncommon to find all sorts of "strange" things on cars that year.
Still want more Sequoia Green owners to chime in Smiley

Hey Chris,
You've got yourself a beautiful and rare car there. I just found a special order paint 68 with evidence of a body colored firewall.

It's really sad...and wrong...that these "Associations" that are supposed to be promoting and preserving the history of these cars would even consider telling you to alter (not restore to original...the way you found it) the color of your firewall because they're too lazy to learn or accept something new or out of the norm...even when you have very compelling photographed documentation backing up the details that set your car apart from other Camaros.

Basically, they're trying to force you to change your Camaro from a fingerprint into a belly button.

I'm glad to hear that you did the right thing and kept the firewall the way it apparently lef the factory and that your car scored so high at the show. It's also great that you didn't end up having too much problem with the item that sets your car apart from all the other cars.  I hope I can see your car in person in the future.

Tony Huntimer
Camaro Performers Magazine
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« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2010, 08:48:49 PM »

Thanks Tony!  After speaking with the Judges in person I can see where their coming from.  They have to have a standard to judge from otherwise anyone could just come in and say this is they way the car was...and how could anyone effectively put a "score" on anything if there was no standard to go against.  Their standard is a mix of the way Chevrolet intended the cars to roll off the assembly line and, in their experience, how the majority actually did. There are a lot people out there who come and enter their cars in this class just get their car "certified" so they can put a $ sign on it...I'm not one of those people.  I restored my car myself, and will have her for a long, long time.  The points and recognition are just my way of patting myself on the back...and really, I get more out of just talking with everyone I meet at the shows and offering up advice or what I’ve learned along the way than any award or number on a piece of paper could give me.  For me it’s all about the car, she’s a piece of history…and being so original when I found her I really had no choice but to put everything back exactly (or as close as possible) to the way I found it...

I would LOVE to see some photos of the Camaro you found and get some details on it…Post or PM me!!!  My car was actually in your magazine!  February ‘09.  Tell Nick & Steve I said thanks again and to stop by and say Hi if they ever make it back out Camaro Nationals…or better yet, since you want to see her in person anyway grab them and head out to Carlisle this June and you can all say Hi.  Grin
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Chris P
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« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2010, 11:21:13 PM »

let's see how many times I will have to try to post pics this time.  4? 5? 20?  fun!!!

Here is what I wrote, kinda: 


aaahahahahaha, Here are a few pics of panels of my car.  I tried to use different lighting for each pic.  It certainly proves that this is kind of an elusive, wild color... ;-)
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« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2010, 11:21:51 PM »

2 of 7
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« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2010, 11:22:23 PM »

3 of 7
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« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2010, 11:22:52 PM »

4 of 7
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« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2010, 11:23:19 PM »

5 of 7
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« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2010, 11:23:55 PM »

6 of 7
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« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2010, 11:24:27 PM »

7 of 7
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« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2010, 11:28:33 PM »

Nice, is it original paint?  What would say the percent of gloss on the tail pan is?
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Chris P
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« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2010, 11:39:47 PM »

I'm still working on varifying it's the original paint.  I will look for the factory type overspray etc. when I take it appart for repainting...  It COULD have been repainted before I bought it in '83...  There are no signs of any other colors.  But we will see...hopefullly.

Percent gloss?  It's body color...  It's just in the shade, dusty, and in need of a wax job.  That may explain it if it seems flat.?.?
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« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2010, 11:12:02 AM »

Oops, my bad, thought it was black that's why I was asking. 
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Chris P
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« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2010, 12:03:43 AM »

Nope. No black. But proves how this color appears differently to everyone...
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« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2010, 03:55:12 PM »

Looks like most of that variation is due to the light source.
Different lights can cause huge differences in the color rendition. Soft natural light tends to be the most accurate.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2010, 09:04:57 AM »

The best photos come from no flash and natural light, from now on I will use my Pantone Chart and give PMS numbers.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2010, 04:18:05 PM »

Buddy:  I have an 11A(66) built LOS car and it has the hidden partial VINs, and they match.  Everything else on this car has checked out, ie: date codes, and part #'s.  This is the first I have ever heard that '67's didn't have the hidden partial Vin.
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« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2010, 04:47:12 PM »

Pex68;  Is that your Firewall date code below the partial VIN in next to last pic.?   That's where mine was, partially covered with caulk.
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« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2010, 10:31:34 PM »

I agree with firstgenaddict, there was a normative practice, but there were anomolies.  First, MOST of the people working on the assembly lines were not a bit concerned about the collectability of these cars.  I did a post about a year ago (Correct Seat Belts) for my Early- 11A  build '67.  I have a complete matched set of date correct Seat Belts that came out of my car.  Everything is correct, except for one thing, they are ROBBINS.  I've been told that ROBBINS were never installed in Camaros.  I KNOW they have not been changed in the past 24 yrs. ('86)and maybe even 3 more years before that.  Who, would change a whole complete set of seat belts, and make sure they were date correct???   And, would they pull a  car from the line for seat belt if they knew they could substitute others with the exact same specs. Huh?  I am planning to restore and use these belts, because I believe the car left the factory with them.  I know this situation does not pertain to this topic exactly, Just saying I agree 100% with firstgenaddict.
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1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
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