Starting problems

[BULLITT65]

Can you post a pic of a line up of the springs and which ones are which?

[mikefam]

Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

[BULLITT65]

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

[mikefam]

Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.

[BULLITT65]

Good info I hope this solved the starting issue.

[Stingr69]

Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.

The weaker spring was GM's response to the no-crank problem.  All starters would have been affected.  It was a marginal design from the beginning.  They probably began to use the softer spring as standard production after that but that is an assumption.

Mini-starters solve the problem as well.  Again - not popular with concours resto but functional.  They will work with less voltage at the start terminal.  If the shorter softer spring does not fix it for you and you can't find the voltage drop you could use one of those mini starters.  Just another way to avoid being stranded somewhere.

[mikefam]

Well it's been starting good for a few days now so I'm going to call it a fix until it fails.

I believe that the bad connection is in the bulkhead connector, there is a 2 volt drop between the horn relay and the neutral safety switch. i took the connector apart and cleaned it but the male wire end looks to be a tin color while the rest of teh wire ends in teh plug are a copper color. There is a visible difference. I cleaned it as well as I could but it is very hard to get to behind the power brake booster.

Does anyone here know of any way to improve a connection like this in the way of a good conductive gel or something that I can add to it. If I could get to it better I would tin the connector with solder but it's just too hard to reaceh and to remove the wire end from the plastic connector.

I sprayed with electronic cleaner and scrubbed with a toothbrush. Any other ideas?

Mike.

[BULLITT65]

The electric fuel pump/sender in my tahoe came white/clear grease that the connector on top of the tank got filled up with right before you press it together to make the connection. Might work for you

[mikefam]

I think htat stuff is to keep moisture out but I don't know if it helps the connection. I remember back in the 70's we would put white lithium grease on an electrical connector for the same reason but again I don't know if it helps the conductors to make contact.

Mike.

[mikefam]

For anyone who's interested in this sort of thing I did find something called conductive grease that is made to improve mechanical splices like in the bulkhead connector and all over automobiles. There is more than one brand around and it is all very expensive because it has a high concentration of silver in it.


After searching around I found that I could buy a small quantity from a company called Chemtronics and here's a link to a good description of the stuff that I found at Allied Electronics

http://www.alliedelec.com/chemtronics-cw7100/70219348/?mkwid=soU7e4ELi&pcrid=23514404897&pkw=chemtronics%20cw7100&pmt=b&pdv=c&gclid=CLjso8_mlMYCFVUTHwodhmUAYw

And here's a link to an Ebay auction thatr had some for a relatively good price

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251992497527?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

When I get the stuff I plan to use a dab on the red wire and the purple wire in the bulkhead connector and do another voltage drop test across the connection and at the starter motor.

In the meantime the car is starting good everytime sith the lighter spring in the solenoid.


Mike.

[BSMIT59]

Good work Mike, nose to the grindstone searching all avenues and sounds like you hit the right stroke and your hard work should benefit alot of us down the road on our projects.

[mikefam]

Barry

Like you I'm an old guy but still learning.

Mike.

[mikefam]

Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.

[BULLITT65]

Good job sounds like you nailed it.

[rich69rs]

Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.

Mike,

Great news and good to hear that you found the source of your hard starting issue.  About 11 years ago I ran into a similar situation with the starter (part number 1108338) in my '69 RS (327 with Powerglide).  Went through many of the same checks that you've struggled through and finally had the starter and solenoid rebuilt and since then it has been 100% reliable at all times, cold, hot, etc.

Moral of my story was that although all of the electrical connections were obviously very important to ensure minimal voltage drop, etc., the root cause of the my hard starting issue was the starter / solenoid itself.  Had both rebuilt and all has been good since.

Ran across the attached while looking for something else recently and I thought I would include it here for the future reference of others.  You will note, that after making a few basic checks, Chevrolet's recommendation to the dealers back in Dec 1968 was to replace the starter. 

Happy 4th of July!

Richard