Author Topic: Starting problems  (Read 12453 times)

mikefam

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Starting problems
« on: June 05, 2015, 08:13:48 PM »
I've been troubleshooting a starting problem for a month now and several times I have thought that I've found the problem because I make a correction and the car starts fine. Then a few hours or a few days later it goes dead again. I've corrected a bunch of flaky connections and replaced the horn relay, ignition switch and neutral safety switch.

My question - what should the voltage be at the starter solenoid with the key in the start position? I am getting a large load when I turn the key and the voltage at the solenoid purple wire is about 8vdc. The solenoid is new.

TIA, Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 08:33:43 PM »
After posting my original question I went to teh car and connected a jumper cable from the negative battery to the exhaust manifold to test the ground to the engine. The car started. I thought taht I had found a problem until I removed the jumper cable and the car still starts. So now it is acting like heat soak but I'm not ready to accept that based on the fact that it has run good for the past week when hot and that it has also died for days where nothing I did helped. I'm stuck.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
Also has anyone changed the under-hood wiring harness on a first gen with the engine installed. The car is fully assembled and it would be good to hear from someone who has done it.  The biggest problem I foresee is the heater blower motor wire which is under the passenger fender. Are there other pitfalls that you know of?

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 03:27:56 PM »
Well I saw nobody had responded to you yet, so I thought I would give it a whirl.

Maybe you can help me out with some more details.

I am guessing this is the 68 Camaro with a 327 you reference in your signature?

Do you run headers on the motor by chance?

When it doesn't start have you tried taking a screw driver and taping the solenoid to see if it is stuck? ( I understand it is new)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mls68z28

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »
how about the starter.

janobyte

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 04:25:33 PM »
bad grounds will create many a ghost to chase in the electrical system. Clean battery to chassis , coat with some dielectric grease. Check body to chassis ground straps (cooper ones off the fire wall) When I say check ,I'm talking removing-cleaning contact areas-grease. Make sure starter is grounded.    Theses are freebie fixes--square that away, and move on to other areas if need be.

When you say dead ,engine not turning over ? Or not firing?



Well Bullitt, you know how it sometimes is here...
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 04:37:41 PM »
bad grounds will create many a ghost to chase in the electrical system. Clean battery to chassis , coat with some dielectric grease. Check body to chassis ground straps (cooper ones off the fire wall) When I say check ,I'm talking removing-cleaning contact areas-grease. Make sure starter is grounded.    Theses are freebie fixes--square that away, and move on to other areas if need be.

When you say dead ,engine not turning over ? Or not firing?



Well Bullitt, you know how it sometimes is here...
bad grounds will create many a ghost to chase in the electrical system. Clean battery to chassis , coat with some dielectric grease. Check body to chassis ground straps (cooper ones off the fire wall) When I say check ,I'm talking removing-cleaning contact areas-grease. Make sure starter is grounded.    Theses are freebie fixes--square that away, and move on to other areas if need be.

When you say dead ,engine not turning over ? Or not firing?



Well Bullitt, you know how it sometimes is here...


Yea! I was sort of assuming he changed it as a unit ,but if not, who knows what shape the brushes/armature's in ? Engine harness shouldn't be a pain to change. Front lighting harness warrants removing driver's fender. ( not a big deal, get another set of hands, keep shims together and mark on the tape/bag their location)

68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 04:38:43 PM »
well I know this is not as exciting a topic as a survivor article, so not as many guys jumping on this topic. I saw he posted 3 times without a response, so I thought, I may not be the know it all but lets get some discussion going to find the solution. Hopefully we can help pin point his issue. :)
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

janobyte

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 04:41:22 PM »
Also check for corrosion where the harnesses plug into the firewall, they were known to collect moisture, hence causing issues.
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 04:42:16 PM »
 ;D
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mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 04:44:07 PM »
I've been through the starting system from end to end checking for voltage drop and have made a bunch of improvements. Each time I made an improvement the car would start for a while and then fail again. Sometimes in hours and sometimes in days.

I have replaced the following

14 gauge fusible link on +battery
horn relay
removed and cleaned connections in bulkhead connector
new accel ignition switch
new accel neutral safety switch
removed fuse box and scraped spade connectors clean
replaced the section of the purple solenoid wire that runs behind the engine (it was brittle)
installed ground wire from -batt to fender brace
new solenoid switch

When it fails the starter works fine if I cross the purple wire with +batt at the starter motor. When it fails I find that I only have about 8vdc at the neutral safety switch as opposed to 10vdc when the car is starting properly. There is a voltage drop that I haven't been able to find. I'm working alone which makes it difficult because I have no one to turn the key when I need them.

This morning I removed and cleaned the buldhead connector for the second time. It is working fine right now so I am waiting for it to fail again to do more testing.

Mike.



68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 04:46:18 PM »
I should have explained that the solenoid does not click. The voltage drops to 8vdc but the solenoid does not switch. It seems like an intermittent connection somewhere along the line.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 04:47:11 PM »
Do you have headers?

When it doesn't start have you tried tapping on the solenoid to see if it will fire?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 05:04:31 PM »
No I haven't tried hitting the solenoid because i am working alone. But it is the second solenoid in a year. I replaced it along with the starter about a year ago and then again recently when the car dies altogether. It has had an intermittent starting problem for a few years.

68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 05:06:38 PM »
bad grounds will create many a ghost to chase in the electrical system. Clean battery to chassis , coat with some dielectric grease. Check body to chassis ground straps (cooper ones off the fire wall) When I say check ,I'm talking removing-cleaning contact areas-grease. Make sure starter is grounded.    Theses are freebie fixes--square that away, and move on to other areas if need be.

When you say dead ,engine not turning over ? Or not firing?



Well Bullitt, you know how it sometimes is here...
bad grounds will create many a ghost to chase in the electrical system. Clean battery to chassis , coat with some dielectric grease. Check body to chassis ground straps (cooper ones off the fire wall) When I say check ,I'm talking removing-cleaning contact areas-grease. Make sure starter is grounded.    Theses are freebie fixes--square that away, and move on to other areas if need be.

When you say dead ,engine not turning over ? Or not firing?



Well Bullitt, you know how it sometimes is here...


Yea! I was sort of assuming he changed it as a unit ,but if not, who knows what shape the brushes/armature's in ? Engine harness shouldn't be a pain to change. Front lighting harness warrants removing driver's fender. ( not a big deal, get another set of hands, keep shims together and mark on the tape/bag their location)



Yes it is behaving as if it can be a ground that comes and goes. The last time it failed I put a jumper cable from the neg batt to the exhaust manifold and it started. I thought that I was on to something but then when I removed the jumper cable it still worked. I am chasing ghosts.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 05:22:43 PM »
;D

Thanks, I just did that this morning for the second time. The next time it fails I plan to trace the circuit for voltage drop starting at the battery and make my way to the bulkhead connector.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

TODD

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 05:23:40 PM »
Mike;
I too was hunting down a ghost wiring issue "no start after engine gets hot". I chased everything, grounds, resistance wires. Bottom line I changed the under-hood headlight harness and engine harness with the engine in. Had to snake it in a few places otherwise worked fine. Never could isolate the resistance issue. I imagine buried somewhere in the harness is a burnt wire that goes open or drastically increases resistance after running and hot. I know you might not want to hear this but if I had to do it again, I'd buy new harnesses and just replace them. No use burning a car to the ground for want of a good harness. Now I know yours is not that drastic however the electrical harnesses are 47 years old. I would also recommend if you can't find the issue and are on a budget remove the harnesses unwrap them and troubleshoot yourself. 

maroman

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2015, 05:23:51 PM »
If I'm understanding you right when it fails you have 8 volts. Are you sure you have the wiring correct? Maybe the resistor coil wire hook to the solenoid?
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

My68SS

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2015, 05:34:38 PM »
8 volts is marginal to get a starter motor solenoid to operate. They will hold in on less than that once operated.
You should have at least 10 volts at the solenoid purple wire to guarantee it will operate.
Some volts are still being lost somewhere.
Rob
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12 bolt posi 3.55

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2015, 05:40:26 PM »
You don't need 2 guys to check the solenoid. Once it doesn't start just tap with a screw driver on the solenoid a couple of times. Sometimes a solenoid will stick, and over time will pop back open . So when you go back to the car all of sudden the problem is gone. I have had this happen as a result of running headers to close to the solenoid, and it getting to hot. Example I drove my 66 Chevelle 20 minutes, would park it, and then come back out like 5 minutes later, and it would not turn over. I would either have to wait 15 minutes for it to cool down and un stick, or tap on the solenoid, and presto it would turn over and start up. Once I figured it out I ran a heat shield over the starter and that solved it.
This may not be your solution, but it may eliminate it as a possibility.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

69pace

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2015, 06:10:57 PM »
Try this as well when it doesn't start and I guess you are actually saying no crank? - hook up your remote starter switch if she cranks your issue is within the column ignition/NSS/to coil wiring circuit.
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mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2015, 07:12:09 PM »
Been there done that and i'm convinced that it is in the wiring circuit but then I'm stuck on this so maybe I'm wrong.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2015, 07:13:02 PM »
Try this as well when it doesn't start and I guess you are actually saying no crank? - hook up your remote starter switch if she cranks your issue is within the column ignition/NSS/to coil wiring circuit.

How did you correct it from sticking?
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mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2015, 08:36:31 PM »
OK it failed again and here is what I found.....with the key in the start position

voltages

at battery 12.1vdc
at horn relay 11.5vdc
at alternator 11.5vdc
at neutral safety switch 9.3vdc
at startyer 8.9vdc

I'm thinking that it is in teh bulkhead connector but I've already re3moved it and cleaned teh connections and it looks to be in pretty good shape. I'm getting ready to add a solid state relay at the starter as I've seen other's do.

Any help?
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ko-lek-tor

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2015, 09:46:31 PM »
Engine Ground to frame and body?
Corrosion at firewall fuseblock connection? (sorry, think you said you cleaned this already-put some dielectric grease on contacts to pevent further problems)
Reverse lockout switch circuitry, connections, or adjustment of linkage or no linkage causing column to lose contact intermitently.
James to strangers, Bentley to friends
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2015, 10:12:19 PM »
Engine Ground to frame and body?
Corrosion at firewall fuseblock connection? (sorry, think you said you cleaned this already-put some dielectric grease on contacts to pevent further problems)
Reverse lockout switch circuitry, connections, or adjustment of linkage or no linkage causing column to lose contact intermitently.

The battery is grounded directly to the engine block via water pump bolt and there is a wire from the negative battery post to the front right fender. I do not have a ground strap from the engine to the body.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2015, 10:40:54 PM »
If I'm understanding you right when it fails you have 8 volts. Are you sure you have the wiring correct? Maybe the resistor coil wire hook to the solenoid?

This is what I'm thinking now but based on my last test I think that it may be the under dash wiring harness. I just removed the fuse box and separated it's two halves so that I can put a volt meter on the red wire coming into the passenger compartment and the purple wire leaving the engine compartment and I don't remember the exact numbers but I think that I was getting over 11vdc in and about 9vdc out teh purple. There is a substantial voltage drop between the bulkhead connector wire in and the on that goes back out to the starter.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2015, 10:58:28 PM »
Ignore my last post replying to maroman. That was meant to quote Todd

I too was hunting down a ghost wiring issue "no start after engine gets hot". I chased everything, grounds, resistance wires. Bottom line I changed the under-hood headlight harness and engine harness with the engine in. Had to snake it in a few places otherwise worked fine. Never could isolate the resistance issue. I imagine buried somewhere in the harness is a burnt wire that goes open or drastically increases resistance after running and hot. I know you might not want to hear this but if I had to do it again, I'd buy new harnesses and just replace them. No use burning a car to the ground for want of a good harness. Now I know yours is not that drastic however the electrical harnesses are 47 years old. I would also recommend if you can't find the issue and are on a budget remove the harnesses unwrap them and troubleshoot yourself. 


and my reply

This is what I'm thinking now but based on my last test I think that it may be the under dash wiring harness. I just removed the fuse box and separated it's two halves so that I can put a volt meter on the red wire coming into the passenger compartment and the purple wire leaving the engine compartment and I don't remember the exact numbers but I think that I was getting over 11vdc in and about 9vdc out the purple. There is a substantial voltage drop between the bulkhead connector wire in and the one that goes back out to the starter.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

My68SS

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2015, 01:59:42 PM »
Try this as well when it doesn't start and I guess you are actually saying no crank? - hook up your remote starter switch if she cranks your issue is within the column ignition/NSS/to coil wiring circuit.

How did you correct it from sticking?

It's not always a 'sticking' problem in the true sense of the word. It can be, but not usually.
This particular solenoid design has a 'snap action', they're either fully released or fully operated.

When the magnetic flux in the armature [the moving part] reaches 'critical mass', the armature begins to move.
This movement causes the flux to increase even further and it's 'game over'. The armature will continue to move, causing ever increasing flux until it is fully operated.

So there's a very tight threshold voltage/current which when reached, causes the armature to snap from fully released to fully operated.
If there is sufficient losses in the wiring/connections causing the solenoid to not operated, it may be that the voltage is only just below the critical operate point.

When you tap the solenoid you can cause a couple of different things to happen which on their own or in combination, may be just enough to get the armature to move when you turn the key to start.
You can cause a slightly better connection at either the purple wire, or slightly improved earthing of the solenoid case to the nose cone, or even a slightly better connection of the main terminal on the starter motor side [important for dual winding solenoids]. Any of which may cause a few extra milliamps to flow and get the solenoid over the operate threshold.

The other thing is that the tapping may just jostle the armature a bit and cause a slight drop in sliding friction - you've lowered the operate threshold.

With regard to heat, yes, this can be a problem. It causes increasing resistance in the solenoid windings = less current = less flux = maybe not enough to operate anymore.
But imo, most of the time it is simply exacerbating a problem elsewhere. If you have at least 10 volts on the solenoid wire the instant you rotate the key to start, the solenoid should still operate, though I must admit, that close proximity to headers may be a bit too much of a flaming for any system to put up with, no matter how good everything else is.
Rob
1968 12C SS
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12 bolt posi 3.55

BSMIT59

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2015, 07:07:43 PM »
Try installing a temporary heat shield between the header and starter. The close proximity sometimes destroys the internals of both starters and solenoids. Cheap thermal insulation should do the trick.
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

1968RSZ28

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2015, 07:47:26 PM »
Speaking of starter heat shields, has anyone tried the EZ Shields products?  I'm wondering how they compare to the blankets that are available.

http://www.ezshields.com/home.html

Paul

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2015, 10:31:23 PM »
Today I took it for two rides and got it to running temp and both times it failed about ten minutes after parking it. So now it looks like I have progressed from the car not starting at all to having a hot start problem. I did rebuild the engine last year and it may be running hotter than it used to and I do not have a temp gauge on it. It also has a single row core in the radiator.

I'm thinking my next move will be a heat shield and temperature gauge. Not that it's boiling over or showing any signs of overheating but it will be good to have the gauge.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2015, 10:34:21 PM »
Try installing a temporary heat shield between the header and starter. The close proximity sometimes destroys the internals of both starters and solenoids. Cheap thermal insulation should do the trick.

I'll do that.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2015, 10:48:25 PM »
I'm thinking about a pushbutton hidden under the dashboard that'll let me drive the car until I fix this problem but I'm afraid that I'll get lazy and just drive it that way forever.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BSMIT59

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2015, 11:34:53 PM »
As a backup plan, I think it's a good idea. Just remember, the fruits of all the labor to restore is useless if you can't enjoy driving and that includes having a backup plan to get back home!
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2015, 11:42:38 AM »
Here's a question for you all
Assuming that a car's starting circuit is all good and that the problem is heat soak then what would a volt meter read at the starter when the heat soak is occurring and the solenoid is not working? Would I see good voltage like around 10 volts and no-start and or would I see a large voltage drop to 8 volts or so and no-start? It seems to me that the resistance in the solenoid would cause less load and that the voltage would read high at the solenoid.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

My68SS

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2015, 12:44:17 PM »
It seems to me that the resistance in the solenoid would cause less load and that the voltage would read high at the solenoid.

Mike.
Correct
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 01:05:01 PM by My68SS »
Rob
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12 bolt posi 3.55

Stingr69

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2015, 01:36:42 PM »
 ;D  Relay and drive away.

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2015, 05:56:38 PM »
;D  Relay and drive away.

OK so then heat soak is not my problem and there must be still an intermittent connection or switch that I am overlooking.

Today the car is starting but I haven't driven it to warm it up because the weather is rainy.

Mike.


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Stingr69

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2015, 09:32:00 PM »


OK so then heat soak is not my problem and there must be still an intermittent connection or switch that I am overlooking.


***************************************************************************************************************

I know the relay mod is unpopular here but if you can get your engine to crank using a screwdriver to short across the starter terminals, adding the relay will get you rolling. Cheap, easy, and no cutting anything.

Today the car is starting but I haven't driven it to warm it up because the weather is rainy.

Mike.




KevinW

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2015, 11:20:36 AM »
I had a similar issue, it got a lot better when I replaced the engine harness. Not sure what the issue was, but I did find the fusible links just hanging on by a couple of strands, they would ohm out OK, but not pass the Amps.

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2015, 01:05:40 PM »
Engine Ground to frame and body?
Corrosion at firewall fuseblock connection? (sorry, think you said you cleaned this already-put some dielectric grease on contacts to pevent further problems)
Reverse lockout switch circuitry, connections, or adjustment of linkage or no linkage causing column to lose contact intermitently.

The battery is grounded directly to the engine block via water pump bolt and there is a wire from the negative battery post to the front right fender.

I do not have a ground strap from the engine to the body.

Either you are not reading correctly or do not understsand. It does not matter how many wires are running from the Neg. terminal to the block. The block needs to be grounded to the frame and body.
I had a 70 Camaro work car BITD. It had some "issues" starting intermittently. I got put on 2nd shift and coming home one night I notice a flash of light coming from under the console. Upon further inspection, I realize the engine was grounding (arcing) through the automatic shifter cable. Hooked up firewall ground straps and problem solved. Check out fundamental issues first, like proper grounding and connections. I will add, if where the ground cable is connected to water pump bolt, there is paint, rust, no washers, corrosion etc...this will cause a lot of problems. I had a diesel that had starter issues. It turned out that it was drawing too many amps. Enough to heat up the pos. connector stud on solenoid to a point, causing the nut to loosen after several starts.  >:(
James to strangers, Bentley to friends
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2015, 01:49:38 PM »
I understand and I read.

The body ground serves the body circuits meaning headlights, taillights etc. and not the starter solenoid. In the starter circuit the current flows from the batt + to the solenoid through the wiring harness and back to the batt - through the engine block. This is because the solenoid is attached to the block through the starter motor and the block is attached to the batt - through the negative battery cable.

The sparks that you saw in your console were caused by current flowing to your lights and other loads that depend on the body parts for a path back to batt -.

Mike.

68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2015, 01:54:46 PM »
I had a similar issue, it got a lot better when I replaced the engine harness. Not sure what the issue was, but I did find the fusible links just hanging on by a couple of strands, they would ohm out OK, but not pass the Amps.

I have not counted out a wiring problem but am not going to change a harness unless I find a problem. I did change the fusible link in on the batt positive cable and another on the voltage regulator for charging.

I don't want to change the engine harness and still have the problem because the fault is in the under-dash harness or somewhere else.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2015, 11:23:37 AM »
I found something interesting that may help someone down the road. I read online that GM at some point made a shorter solenoid return spring to help alleviate the hot start problem. Knowing this I removed my starter and dug up three more starters around the garage and removed the solenoid springs from them all and I came up with three different length return springs!

The shortest spring was removed from and old solenoid that has the Delco logo on it and the longest was from an Echlin solenoid that I bought recently. I installed the short Delco spring and the car has been starting good for two days.

Granted I corrected more than one wiring problem and improved the circuit's power by cleaning up connections and replacing the neutral safety switch and ignition switch but I think that the spring was causing most of the trouble.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2015, 05:12:27 PM »
Can you post a pic of a line up of the springs and which ones are which?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2015, 05:35:52 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2015, 05:40:57 PM »
It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2015, 11:06:29 PM »
Good info I hope this solved the starting issue.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Stingr69

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.

The weaker spring was GM's response to the no-crank problem.  All starters would have been affected.  It was a marginal design from the beginning.  They probably began to use the softer spring as standard production after that but that is an assumption.

Mini-starters solve the problem as well.  Again - not popular with concours resto but functional.  They will work with less voltage at the start terminal.  If the shorter softer spring does not fix it for you and you can't find the voltage drop you could use one of those mini starters.  Just another way to avoid being stranded somewhere.

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2015, 08:32:39 PM »
Well it's been starting good for a few days now so I'm going to call it a fix until it fails.

I believe that the bad connection is in the bulkhead connector, there is a 2 volt drop between the horn relay and the neutral safety switch. i took the connector apart and cleaned it but the male wire end looks to be a tin color while the rest of teh wire ends in teh plug are a copper color. There is a visible difference. I cleaned it as well as I could but it is very hard to get to behind the power brake booster.

Does anyone here know of any way to improve a connection like this in the way of a good conductive gel or something that I can add to it. If I could get to it better I would tin the connector with solder but it's just too hard to reaceh and to remove the wire end from the plastic connector.

I sprayed with electronic cleaner and scrubbed with a toothbrush. Any other ideas?

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2015, 04:27:53 AM »
The electric fuel pump/sender in my tahoe came white/clear grease that the connector on top of the tank got filled up with right before you press it together to make the connection. Might work for you
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2015, 11:19:22 AM »
I think htat stuff is to keep moisture out but I don't know if it helps the connection. I remember back in the 70's we would put white lithium grease on an electrical connector for the same reason but again I don't know if it helps the conductors to make contact.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2015, 06:11:15 PM »
For anyone who's interested in this sort of thing I did find something called conductive grease that is made to improve mechanical splices like in the bulkhead connector and all over automobiles. There is more than one brand around and it is all very expensive because it has a high concentration of silver in it.


After searching around I found that I could buy a small quantity from a company called Chemtronics and here's a link to a good description of the stuff that I found at Allied Electronics

http://www.alliedelec.com/chemtronics-cw7100/70219348/?mkwid=soU7e4ELi&pcrid=23514404897&pkw=chemtronics%20cw7100&pmt=b&pdv=c&gclid=CLjso8_mlMYCFVUTHwodhmUAYw

And here's a link to an Ebay auction thatr had some for a relatively good price

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251992497527?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

When I get the stuff I plan to use a dab on the red wire and the purple wire in the bulkhead connector and do another voltage drop test across the connection and at the starter motor.

In the meantime the car is starting good everytime sith the lighter spring in the solenoid.


Mike.

68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BSMIT59

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2015, 07:41:03 PM »
Good work Mike, nose to the grindstone searching all avenues and sounds like you hit the right stroke and your hard work should benefit alot of us down the road on our projects.
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2015, 12:34:45 AM »
Barry

Like you I'm an old guy but still learning.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2015, 12:17:39 PM »
Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2015, 03:04:02 PM »
Good job sounds like you nailed it.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

rich69rs

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2015, 09:50:54 PM »
Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.

Mike,

Great news and good to hear that you found the source of your hard starting issue.  About 11 years ago I ran into a similar situation with the starter (part number 1108338) in my '69 RS (327 with Powerglide).  Went through many of the same checks that you've struggled through and finally had the starter and solenoid rebuilt and since then it has been 100% reliable at all times, cold, hot, etc.

Moral of my story was that although all of the electrical connections were obviously very important to ensure minimal voltage drop, etc., the root cause of the my hard starting issue was the starter / solenoid itself.  Had both rebuilt and all has been good since.

Ran across the attached while looking for something else recently and I thought I would include it here for the future reference of others.  You will note, that after making a few basic checks, Chevrolet's recommendation to the dealers back in Dec 1968 was to replace the starter. 

Happy 4th of July!

Richard
Richard Thomas
1969 RS

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2016, 06:21:14 PM »
So it's been over a year now and the car is still starting perfectly. I still have a pretty large voltage drop in the bulhead connector even after adding silver impregnated grease to the connections but the car is starting and I'm good with it.

rich69rs - interesting document. It doesn't talk about the solenoid or the spring but changes the entire starter which includes both. I wonder if their changes affect the solenoid, the spring or the starter motor itself.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

Stingr69

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2016, 02:47:53 PM »
The spring change would help if the starter solenoid would not even pull in.  No electricity would be sent to the starter motor windings and the bendix would not move. 

The extra torque starter would help if the solenoid did do its job, the bendix engaged the flywheel and electricity was sent to the electrical windings. In this situation, the engine would crank slow or it would just attempt to turn over.

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2017, 11:56:22 PM »
BTW, thank for responding. As you might guess the car has started fine since late last fall and over the winter, but....just drove the car this past ( warm weekend, pulled up in front of garage. Went back out about 15 minutes later to pull in and nothing....waited about 2 hours and started right up. Pisses me off that put so much money and work into this car and afraid to drive it. Sounds like many things to check.