Author Topic: Starting problems  (Read 12520 times)

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2015, 05:12:27 PM »
Can you post a pic of a line up of the springs and which ones are which?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2015, 05:35:52 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2015, 05:40:57 PM »
It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2015, 11:06:29 PM »
Good info I hope this solved the starting issue.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Stingr69

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »
Here's a pic of two of the springs that I believe are Echlin parts but I'm not absolutely certain because I mixed them up. I am sure that I put the shortest of them in the car and that it came from a solenoid that was many years old and had the Delco name/logo on it.



You can see the difference in these two springs and the third one that I put in my car is that much shorter again.

It appears the springs are the same length , material wise but that one is more stretched out?

Also do you think both springs are of the same strength ? same material?

I wonder if the Echlin is the newer looking silver one.

thanks for the pic!

Good eye, they are both 9/32" wire and wound on the same diameter and close to the same wire length. The short one has about 1/4 turn more wire than the longer one. Now I wish that I had taken a photo of the spring that I installed in the car.

 I have read that GM manufactured a weaker spring in response to solenoids having this sort of problem but that the part was discontinued long ago. I read it on the internet so it must be true!

Mike.

The weaker spring was GM's response to the no-crank problem.  All starters would have been affected.  It was a marginal design from the beginning.  They probably began to use the softer spring as standard production after that but that is an assumption.

Mini-starters solve the problem as well.  Again - not popular with concours resto but functional.  They will work with less voltage at the start terminal.  If the shorter softer spring does not fix it for you and you can't find the voltage drop you could use one of those mini starters.  Just another way to avoid being stranded somewhere.

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2015, 08:32:39 PM »
Well it's been starting good for a few days now so I'm going to call it a fix until it fails.

I believe that the bad connection is in the bulkhead connector, there is a 2 volt drop between the horn relay and the neutral safety switch. i took the connector apart and cleaned it but the male wire end looks to be a tin color while the rest of teh wire ends in teh plug are a copper color. There is a visible difference. I cleaned it as well as I could but it is very hard to get to behind the power brake booster.

Does anyone here know of any way to improve a connection like this in the way of a good conductive gel or something that I can add to it. If I could get to it better I would tin the connector with solder but it's just too hard to reaceh and to remove the wire end from the plastic connector.

I sprayed with electronic cleaner and scrubbed with a toothbrush. Any other ideas?

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2015, 04:27:53 AM »
The electric fuel pump/sender in my tahoe came white/clear grease that the connector on top of the tank got filled up with right before you press it together to make the connection. Might work for you
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2015, 11:19:22 AM »
I think htat stuff is to keep moisture out but I don't know if it helps the connection. I remember back in the 70's we would put white lithium grease on an electrical connector for the same reason but again I don't know if it helps the conductors to make contact.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2015, 06:11:15 PM »
For anyone who's interested in this sort of thing I did find something called conductive grease that is made to improve mechanical splices like in the bulkhead connector and all over automobiles. There is more than one brand around and it is all very expensive because it has a high concentration of silver in it.


After searching around I found that I could buy a small quantity from a company called Chemtronics and here's a link to a good description of the stuff that I found at Allied Electronics

http://www.alliedelec.com/chemtronics-cw7100/70219348/?mkwid=soU7e4ELi&pcrid=23514404897&pkw=chemtronics%20cw7100&pmt=b&pdv=c&gclid=CLjso8_mlMYCFVUTHwodhmUAYw

And here's a link to an Ebay auction thatr had some for a relatively good price

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251992497527?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

When I get the stuff I plan to use a dab on the red wire and the purple wire in the bulkhead connector and do another voltage drop test across the connection and at the starter motor.

In the meantime the car is starting good everytime sith the lighter spring in the solenoid.


Mike.

68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BSMIT59

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2015, 07:41:03 PM »
Good work Mike, nose to the grindstone searching all avenues and sounds like you hit the right stroke and your hard work should benefit alot of us down the road on our projects.
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....
Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process  ( in paint booth now)
Looking for N243673 to reunite V0320MO block and crank

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2015, 12:34:45 AM »
Barry

Like you I'm an old guy but still learning.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

mikefam

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2015, 12:17:39 PM »
Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.
68 Convertible w/327 275hp donor engine from a 67 Impala and TH350

BULLITT65

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2015, 03:04:02 PM »
Good job sounds like you nailed it.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

rich69rs

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Re: Starting problems
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2015, 09:50:54 PM »
Happy 4th to eveyone.

FYI

The starter solenoid has been working perfectly with the lighter spring for a few weeks now. I got the silver grease in the mail but haven't used it on the connections yet because the car is running well and now is the time to be driving the car. The weather is too nice to spend in the garage working on it.

Mike.

Mike,

Great news and good to hear that you found the source of your hard starting issue.  About 11 years ago I ran into a similar situation with the starter (part number 1108338) in my '69 RS (327 with Powerglide).  Went through many of the same checks that you've struggled through and finally had the starter and solenoid rebuilt and since then it has been 100% reliable at all times, cold, hot, etc.

Moral of my story was that although all of the electrical connections were obviously very important to ensure minimal voltage drop, etc., the root cause of the my hard starting issue was the starter / solenoid itself.  Had both rebuilt and all has been good since.

Ran across the attached while looking for something else recently and I thought I would include it here for the future reference of others.  You will note, that after making a few basic checks, Chevrolet's recommendation to the dealers back in Dec 1968 was to replace the starter. 

Happy 4th of July!

Richard
Richard Thomas
1969 RS