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Messages - Rich

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Originality / Re: 1967 396
« on: February 26, 2007, 10:35:45 PM »
I'm on travel this week, so my thanks to Kurt for providing some high-level guidance to this thread to keep this topic from going high order.  I appreciate that emotions can run high when a favorite subject is discussed, but we need to 1) focus on facts, 2) avoid personal attacks, and 3) if attacked - take the high road in your reply (or don't reply at all) - believe me, those that do this are noticed and respected.

CRG has no wish to have to tightly moderate these various boards, but we also will not tolerate uncivil on-forum behavior.  When needed we will censure posts, and we have in extreme cases revoked forum rights (only once in our history).

As to the technical content that was - in part - being discussed, I have a few opinions, but I also believe there is a shortage of facts, and while several pronouncements and assessments could be made, I think the primary question asked does not yet have a clean answer, requires more research, and - may not ever have a clean answer.

All three of these cars have a unique and respected history, and should be enjoyed for what they each bring to the hobby.


General Discussion / New CRG Research Report - Bellhousing Alignment
« on: February 09, 2007, 08:59:09 PM »
Jerry MacNeish - CRG member for several years - has joined the author list of significant contributors to the CRG site with his new CRG report on bellhousing alignment for manual transmission cars - see

Jerry has more in the hopper, and we're looking forward to seeing the results from his next topics.

Thanks Jerry, for a great article!


Decoding/Numbers / Re: Date of mfg. based on VIN
« on: January 26, 2007, 05:22:50 AM »
As the various links explain (and you should read JohnZs assembly process report also), you can use this data and the math with approximations to get kinda/sorta about when a car was built.  But it isn't guaranteed to be exact, as we disclaim all over the place.  The only way to know for sure exactly when a car actually came of the assembly line is to have a piece of GM paper that says that, and those are rare.

LOS cars have a Fisher production date code that gets you an idea of the working day of the month when it got tagged on the Fisher side.  GMAC papers have the shipping date that is usually within a day or two, no more than a week, later than production.  BBCs have the order rec'd at factory date that also tends to get you close.  The Manufacturer's Statement of Origin has the transfer date from GM to the dealer that is no later than the shipping date.

I was fortunate to find the MSO during my extensive title search for my car, a 9Jan68 MSO date for my 01B car that is LOS with a J day of month in the scheduling code, which is interesting - our other data show that the January scheduling period started during the 12E week and accounts for a couple of days - and taking other things into account, the J day from our other data has to pretty near be either the 8th or at most the 9th for my car, meaning that it would have been built and shipped very fast, which isn't always the case. And that also means they did something wacky with that first A week of the year, which they do seem to have done (perhaps like spending more of that first short week building Impalas rather than Camaros). That these dates don't fit a conventional calendar is one of our points, and unless you have several pieces of converging data, getting closer than a week is pretty uncertain.

However, our Canadian friends are fortunate in this regard as the GM Canada data has both the build and ship dates included.

Originality / Re: 68 woodgrain ash tray+dlx hubcaps
« on: January 20, 2007, 04:12:56 AM »
Those are the Fisher tag months and week of month.  We're talking early 1968 here for the changeover; your car is late 67 and so definitely a black ashtray car.

Tying up the loose ends were agonizing for Kurt, :) but he completed and we have released the iniital release of a CRG Research Bulletin on the 1969 Z11 Pacers and Z10 Coupes.  See

Congratulations Kurt Sonen!

Several other new articles are in prep by Kurt, Jerry, John and others.


Decoding/Numbers / Re: finding original owner
« on: January 12, 2007, 09:14:17 PM »
A couple of suggestions that may or may not work for you in a given state, but worked for me.

1) Microfiche lives forever.  Computer records usually have a limited life, and DMVs will *always* say that they only keep their records for X years.  And I'm not saying that every state has such an office, but every time I hit a dead-end, but was politely persistent and pushed up the chain (you need to be on the phone for this), I was eventually directed to a microfiche storage office that had all back records.  It helps if you specifically refer to microfiche (pronounced micro-fish) records, until you find someone that knows that they are.  In some states this office seemed to consist of only one person n the state, and most of the people you interact with at a given DMV will not even know they exist, so you need to push up the chain of command a couple levels until you find someone that has been around long enough to know where to send you.

2) If you hit a privacy law, you might try to argue your way past a complete dead-end by saying that you really are looking for the earliest reference to a dealer, and don't need to see names or addresses of individuals, and that it would be okay for them to mark through that info with a magic marker (which you can usually see through anyway if you hold it up to the light just right).


Decoding/Numbers / Re: What Does this starter belong on?
« on: January 12, 2007, 09:02:58 PM »
8338 is the 68 L48/PG starter, and was also used on the later 69 L48/PG after they switched back from the 8361 used early in 69 that was blamed for hot-starting problems.  Refer to Service Bulletin 69-T-9 if you want detail.  The 8420 typically found its way into the 69 L48/THM350.

Originality / Re: steering wheel
« on: January 10, 2007, 01:16:03 PM »
Daniel asked me to verify, and yes, this is the 68 N30 wheel, also included in Z87 custom interior.

Oh - and BTW - almost all of the repo suppliers are confused about this wheel.  They list the wrong N30 wheel in their books.  I tried to get several of them to listen, but they didn't seem to care enough to try to make a correction.  For example (see link, but not sure if this link to Classic Industries will stay fixed) but if you look up the CI 68 deluxe steering wheel, it is wrong.

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Help decoding my 69 vin
« on: December 07, 2006, 03:45:49 AM »
Admittedly the RPO sheet on site is probably due for a re-load.  We haven't updated it in awhile, and it can be terse and hard to understand in obscure instances, even when it is accurate.

However, a better summary can be found at:

If not sure where to look on site, try the Google site search on the home page - it digs out stuff pretty well.  The first two hits on "seat belt" were the two above, but the summary was listed first, and might have saved you some time.


Decoding/Numbers / Re: Help decoding my 69 vin
« on: December 06, 2006, 03:00:52 AM »
A39 and A85 were not 1969 Camaro ordering codes for belts.  They were options, but transparent to the buyer, and not used for ordering; they were used in prior years (67-68).  The 69 YA1/2/3 ordering codes, which appeared on the WS in place of the actual option, allowed the dealer not to have to worry about the various permutations of deluxe and standard, front and rear, shoulder and lap, so that the correct belts would get into the car without a RPO screwup and the order being rejected.

To Lakeholme - you might want to refer people to the CRG decoding page for POP decoding.  It has the latest accurate info.


Research Topics & Reports / Re: 68 RS center grille
« on: December 06, 2006, 02:28:20 AM »
Just sent out the first note tonight - to 17 owners with email address and 68 RS cars built in April or May that were logged as having some supporting documentation.  This is a subset, but generally the best to start with.  We'll see what this cast of the net brings up.  I've already gotten three bounced email messages so far; very typical (how many of you have changed at least one email address in the past 5 years!).  If they actually get the message and reply that is key.  Then all I will ask of them is agreement to allow me to give you their email - you can take it from there, if we get any replies.  If we don't, or if very few, we'll try some of the balance of less documented cars. Rich

Research Topics & Reports / Re: 68 RS center grille
« on: November 21, 2006, 03:17:48 AM »

I just took a rough inventory of the database with Z22 in this date range, and I'm going to guess those that appear to be both reasonably traceable, and with likely current owner contact info, aren't more than 15 or 20 in number.  I'd also guess that less than 10 would respond to an inquiry, and I'd also guess that you've already covered at least half of those in this thread.  That means an inquiry isn't likely to yield a flood of new data.

That said, every bit helps, and I'll send out a note to those people.  If not tomorrow, then next week when I get back from travel.  I'm wiped out tonight.



Research Topics & Reports / Re: 68 RS center grille
« on: November 14, 2006, 01:56:14 AM »
I'm wondering if it isn't time to summarize where you are, and start a new thread (reference back to this one for anyone joing late).

I'm hoping I have a few minutes over the next few days to dig a little into the db and make some suggestions.  I haven't followed the last bit too closely, so what is the time period and specific type of car that you would still be looking for?


There is no way to know.

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