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Author Topic: Crazy ads  (Read 2169 times)
JWD
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2011, 10:02:44 PM »

Thanks for the info. That's the kind of info. that needs to be out there for all of us to benefit from. No need to keep secrets.
To all of those that e-mailed me, thanks for the info.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2011, 09:46:23 AM »

When I first came on board I took a lot of things these guys said personal. If you hang around long enough you will find this isn't the case at all. We are just a bunch of guys/gals that are passionate about these cars and any time someone tries to pass a clone off as authentic…well, let's just say we'll toss everything out there but the kitchen sink in an attempt to expose these individuals for what they are, and is in no way directed at the poster.

If you find another prospective First Gen you are interested in, get all of the important numbers sent to you via photographs and post them here; Vin, Cowl Tag, Engine Pad, Trans & Rear Axle, and we'll help you decode/verify them. If you are not familiar as to where these numbers are located ask and you'll be pointed in the right direction. You would be amazed at the level of knowledge this site possesses. Or, contact Jerry MacNeish to evaluate the car for you.

Specific information is seldom given about phony tags for the reasons Dale mentioned. There are just too many a-holes out there monitoring sites like this for no other reason than to sharpen their corrupt skills. Again, don't take it personal and look at the bright side; you still have 60K to play with.  Wink

Good luck and welcome to CRG!  
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JohnZ
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 10:43:15 AM »

We don't give details so as not to help the people making these tags.

That's pretty standard for this board. Maybe you can find other information on the internet but it doesn't change the fact that that tag is a reproduction.

That car would be at least twice that price if it was real so that should be a hint also.

I guess I don't understand the stance of the Camaro group. Having owned/restored many numbers matching solid axle and mid year Corvettes (including rare BB cars) that have sold for $150K+, I know what to look for regarding them. In fact, if you post any piece of data regarding any one of them, you'll not only get "opinions" but you'll get WHY it is correct or not. NO SECRETS. To come here and ask a question and have someone give their OPINION without the facts to back it up means absolutely nothing. The"Trust me, I know everything" attitude is B.S.
JohnZ is on all the Corvette sites as well as here and doesn't seem to hide behind some "secrecy certain". He gives FACTS about them. Maybe that attitude should spread to the others here.
Maybe I'll stick to Corvettes, 66-67 L-79 Novas and 70 LS-6 Chevelles and forget about a Z-28. Those folks are more than willing to share information. 

Midyear Corvettes are a different animal - far fewer of them were built, only one plant was involved (with only one Graphotype machine stamping the tags), and the tags were unpainted; that allows a fake tag to be spotted in about ten seconds with a 10X loupe due to the consistent striations and die marks in the aluminum for each letter (which can't be duplicated), and you only have to look at one letter to make the determination.

Camaro tags are painted, two different plants (and Graphotypes) were involved, and you can't see the die marks on each character like you can on a Corvette; that leaves specific font and formatting details as the only identifiers, and we like to keep those non-public so as not to assist the tag-fakers in making more accurate tags. Fake tags aren't an issue any more on Corvettes, as they're easily spotted and result in immediate disqualification from judging; on the other hand, fake tags are RAMPANT on Camaros - we see them every day. Between the detailed tag knowledge of some enthusiasts and the vehicle history in the CRG database, most fake and/or swapped Camaro tags can be spotted; the less the tag-fakers know about those details, the better it is for the hobby.
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'69 Z/28
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JWD
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 11:32:14 AM »

Thanks for the reply John. I disagree about fake tags not being an issue on Corvettes. Yes, they are easy to spot if you know what to look for and yes, you'll be disqualified if you have it judged at a NCRS event. Very few actually have their cars judged and you wouldn't find out that the NCRS thinks it's a fake unless you bought the car and then tried to have it judged. I've been a NCRS member for over 30 years. That being said, why are they easy to spot, because the info. is common knowledge among the enthusiasts. However, there are still many that buy fake Corvettes because they aren't educated and that's what I'm trying get across here. If the info. isn't out, people will continue to buy fake cars and get ripped off.
Fortunately, I've received several e-mails from people here giving me very good info. and examples of what to look for and what to avoid. That's what I wanted in order to make an informed decision should I buy a car. I'm not looking for "Post it here and I'll tell you if it's real or not". Again, without the facts to back it up, it's nothing more than one persons opinion. It's a shame that your members feel they have to sneak around to get the info. out but I'm thankful they had the ballz to step up to the plate.
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william
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 12:40:43 PM »

There's another element to this that needs to be mentioned: a swapped tag. In addition to all the repro tags there are plenty of loose real tags being sold and ending up where they don't belong. For Camaros ALL the info has to align:  body tag, VIN tag, hidden VINs. There is a '69 currently on ebay that has this problem. This one happens to be easy; it's an LA VIN and a Norwood body tag. Not always this obvious; some body snatchers know enough to be dangerous.
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JKZ27
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 06:49:48 PM »

I wish I knew all the known details of the original tags that separates them from the fakes, but I believe its a good idea to keep it confidential among those who figured it out. Hell, I wish I knew a lot of things that I didnt have the patience or the passion to figure out on my own. I think I'll settle for appreciating their advice.

John.
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69 RS/SS Cortez Silver, L48 MC1
68 RS Ash/Ivy Gold 327EFI M20
79 Z28 Brown LM1 M21
04 SRT 10
KurtS
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2011, 08:14:18 PM »

That's what I wanted in order to make an informed decision should I buy a car. I'm not looking for "Post it here and I'll tell you if it's real or not". Again, without the facts to back it up, it's nothing more than one persons opinion. It's a shame that your members feel they have to sneak around to get the info. out but I'm thankful they had the ballz to step up to the plate.
It's no different on any of the Camaro forums. Sorry. And even with those details, you still can get taken. There's lots of things to check like pad stamps, dates, etc. What's the difference when you ask Al what he thinks about a Corvette engine pad??  NCRS sure doesn't publish pictures of pad stamps.....

And I agree with Bill:
>some body snatchers know enough to be dangerous.
I was just looking thru data and found a car that was supposed to be a nice original with docs, sold several years ago by a seller that's been known to fudge things.
Pretty much guaranteed to be a fake, but it was well-done - noone caught it. That I noticed later was a fluke.
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Kurt S
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JWD
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2011, 09:41:19 PM »

I don't need to ask Al G. about engine pads. I feel very confident in that area. You obviously aren't a NCRS member because if you were, you would know they have written many articles about them including pictures in their publication "The Corvette Restorer". There are also a ton of threads on the NCRS forum where people show pads, trim tags, etc. and members respond not only with their opinions, but with the reasons for that opinion as well as examples to compare it to. No secrets in the Corvette world. The Camaro world should follow suit.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 10:06:14 PM »

A wise man once said, or was that Phil Wink... Don't ever get in a spraying match with a skunk because you'll never win Grin !!!

Maybe I'll stick to Corvettes, 66-67 L-79 Novas and 70 LS-6 Chevelles and forget about a Z-28.  
Everyone has tried the diplomatic approach with this guy. It obviously isn't working...Dude, you are pissing on all the wrong trees! Your above quote might not be such a bad idea...
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KurtS
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 11:31:27 PM »

No offense taken. But it's not gonna change how the Camaro world (or I) operate. Say la V.
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Kurt S
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lakeholme
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 08:04:09 AM »

And to paraphrase another wise saying, "When you're in somebody else's garage, you work by his rules."
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Phillip
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"Charlotte AutoFair -- presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA -- is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast." --September 18-21, 2014
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 01:48:57 PM »

Maybe someday we will get to the point that we have enough data points to reveal the hows and whys of things without the fear of helping cloners...

Few if any of the other Chevrolet models from 68 and up use cowl tag markings to identify their HP models therefore it is much less of an issue.  
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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