CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: JWD on November 15, 2011, 12:25:10 AM
-
I've been looking for a 69 Z-28 for quite a while. In the last few months, I've answered several ads for 100% original, documented cars. However, when I request a picture of the engine pad and the data plate, all communications stop immediately. I can only assume that these cars were frauds. There are more fake Z-28's out there than there are fake big block Corvettes. Oh well, I suppose part of the fun is in the hunt but this is getting frustrating.
I recently found the perfect car but when I tried to buy it, the "seller" would only go through E-Bay and have the car shipped to me. I told him "I'll be there tomorrow morning with a car trailer and CASH". He refused my offer. ::)
Jim
-
Jim, there are very few real and documented Z28's out there, lots of fake cars and fake paperwork. You will eventually come across the perfect car unfortunately it will take a little time and effort. Best of luck in your hunt.
-
Go look for a REAL BLACK RS/Z28 and then you will get an idea of the number of highend collectors who have been taken for a RIDE!!! The number of clones has actually hurt the price of the real ones.
-
The real fun is getting something questionable at a fair price and then with homework and CRG finding out it is real. With this site and Jerry,s books and others you might not be able to prove what it is but you can prove what it is not.
-
Go look for a REAL BLACK RS/Z28 and then you will get an idea of the number of highend collectors who have been taken for a RIDE!!! The number of clones has actually hurt the price of the real ones.
Is this one a fake? http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/2698741718.html
-
Beautiful car, but the tag is fake as the day is long!
-
The ad says "factory correct Tuxedo Black car" so there is an admittance of a color change.
The "Ford Caution Sticker" doesn't help things either but there are some real nice things about this car including a real Rosewood wheel, exhaust system, and rear fold down seat.
The tag kills the resale and you would be better off with the old tag with the wrong color painted....if it was a real z in the first place.
-
What are the issues with the tag? I need to know what to look for. Thanks.
-
We don't discuss specific tag issues on the board but feel free to post any tag pic of any future cars that you are looking for and you will get good advice here.
Are you looking for a specific color?
Restored, survivor, or project?
-
Why the secrecy? This kind of info. is available all over the internet regarding Corvette tags. I compared the above tag to the ones in Jerry's book and they look identical.
-
We don't give details so as not to help the people making these tags.
That's pretty standard for this board. Maybe you can find other information on the internet but it doesn't change the fact that that tag is a reproduction.
That car would be at least twice that price if it was real so that should be a hint also.
-
JWD - Good advise from jl8dale! Any time you hear or read the word/words, "Correct" or "Date Correct" referencing an "Original Car"...RUN AND DON'T LOOK BACK! Here are the sellers own words with regards to the engine; "Correct 302-290 HP DZ engine". Also, when someone is trying to sell a Original high end First Gen, he or she will go to great lengths to show the important numbers ie; VIN, engine, transmission, and rear.
Why the secrecy? This kind of info. is available all over the internet regarding Corvette tags. I compared the above tag to the ones in Jerry's book and they look identical.
If you still have questions, contact the seller and have him send you the pics of the above numbers and you'll see what I mean. They won't even come close to matching the cars Vin.
-
Go look for a REAL BLACK RS/Z28 and then you will get an idea of the number of highend collectors who have been taken for a RIDE!!! The number of clones has actually hurt the price of the real ones.
You are 100% correct James, If someone kept stats on the most cloned color for '69 Z's; Tuxedo black would be in the top 2 for sure...
-
We don't give details so as not to help the people making these tags.
That's pretty standard for this board. Maybe you can find other information on the internet but it doesn't change the fact that that tag is a reproduction.
That car would be at least twice that price if it was real so that should be a hint also.
I guess I don't understand the stance of the Camaro group. Having owned/restored many numbers matching solid axle and mid year Corvettes (including rare BB cars) that have sold for $150K+, I know what to look for regarding them. In fact, if you post any piece of data regarding any one of them, you'll not only get "opinions" but you'll get WHY it is correct or not. NO SECRETS. To come here and ask a question and have someone give their OPINION without the facts to back it up means absolutely nothing. The"Trust me, I know everything" attitude is B.S.
JohnZ is on all the Corvette sites as well as here and doesn't seem to hide behind some "secrecy certain". He gives FACTS about them. Maybe that attitude should spread to the others here.
Maybe I'll stick to Corvettes, 66-67 L-79 Novas and 70 LS-6 Chevelles and forget about a Z-28. Those folks are more than willing to share information.
-
I'll give you a specific on the one from the Criags List ad... D80 was not indicated on the Cowl Tag at the time the car was produced 03D, so since it isn't supposed to be there it is a fake.
CRAIGS LIST FAKE TAG
(http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/50243/2531901140059464720S600x600Q85.jpg)
REAL 10 10 X33
(http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/33272/2426413730059464720S600x600Q85.jpg)
-
Thanks for the info. That's the kind of info. that needs to be out there for all of us to benefit from. No need to keep secrets.
To all of those that e-mailed me, thanks for the info.
-
When I first came on board I took a lot of things these guys said personal. If you hang around long enough you will find this isn't the case at all. We are just a bunch of guys/gals that are passionate about these cars and any time someone tries to pass a clone off as authentic…well, let's just say we'll toss everything out there but the kitchen sink in an attempt to expose these individuals for what they are, and is in no way directed at the poster.
If you find another prospective First Gen you are interested in, get all of the important numbers sent to you via photographs and post them here; Vin, Cowl Tag, Engine Pad, Trans & Rear Axle, and we'll help you decode/verify them. If you are not familiar as to where these numbers are located ask and you'll be pointed in the right direction. You would be amazed at the level of knowledge this site possesses. Or, contact Jerry MacNeish to evaluate the car for you.
Specific information is seldom given about phony tags for the reasons Dale mentioned. There are just too many a-holes out there monitoring sites like this for no other reason than to sharpen their corrupt skills. Again, don't take it personal and look at the bright side; you still have 60K to play with. ;)
Good luck and welcome to CRG!
-
We don't give details so as not to help the people making these tags.
That's pretty standard for this board. Maybe you can find other information on the internet but it doesn't change the fact that that tag is a reproduction.
That car would be at least twice that price if it was real so that should be a hint also.
I guess I don't understand the stance of the Camaro group. Having owned/restored many numbers matching solid axle and mid year Corvettes (including rare BB cars) that have sold for $150K+, I know what to look for regarding them. In fact, if you post any piece of data regarding any one of them, you'll not only get "opinions" but you'll get WHY it is correct or not. NO SECRETS. To come here and ask a question and have someone give their OPINION without the facts to back it up means absolutely nothing. The"Trust me, I know everything" attitude is B.S.
JohnZ is on all the Corvette sites as well as here and doesn't seem to hide behind some "secrecy certain". He gives FACTS about them. Maybe that attitude should spread to the others here.
Maybe I'll stick to Corvettes, 66-67 L-79 Novas and 70 LS-6 Chevelles and forget about a Z-28. Those folks are more than willing to share information.
Midyear Corvettes are a different animal - far fewer of them were built, only one plant was involved (with only one Graphotype machine stamping the tags), and the tags were unpainted; that allows a fake tag to be spotted in about ten seconds with a 10X loupe due to the consistent striations and die marks in the aluminum for each letter (which can't be duplicated), and you only have to look at one letter to make the determination.
Camaro tags are painted, two different plants (and Graphotypes) were involved, and you can't see the die marks on each character like you can on a Corvette; that leaves specific font and formatting details as the only identifiers, and we like to keep those non-public so as not to assist the tag-fakers in making more accurate tags. Fake tags aren't an issue any more on Corvettes, as they're easily spotted and result in immediate disqualification from judging; on the other hand, fake tags are RAMPANT on Camaros - we see them every day. Between the detailed tag knowledge of some enthusiasts and the vehicle history in the CRG database, most fake and/or swapped Camaro tags can be spotted; the less the tag-fakers know about those details, the better it is for the hobby.
-
Thanks for the reply John. I disagree about fake tags not being an issue on Corvettes. Yes, they are easy to spot if you know what to look for and yes, you'll be disqualified if you have it judged at a NCRS event. Very few actually have their cars judged and you wouldn't find out that the NCRS thinks it's a fake unless you bought the car and then tried to have it judged. I've been a NCRS member for over 30 years. That being said, why are they easy to spot, because the info. is common knowledge among the enthusiasts. However, there are still many that buy fake Corvettes because they aren't educated and that's what I'm trying get across here. If the info. isn't out, people will continue to buy fake cars and get ripped off.
Fortunately, I've received several e-mails from people here giving me very good info. and examples of what to look for and what to avoid. That's what I wanted in order to make an informed decision should I buy a car. I'm not looking for "Post it here and I'll tell you if it's real or not". Again, without the facts to back it up, it's nothing more than one persons opinion. It's a shame that your members feel they have to sneak around to get the info. out but I'm thankful they had the ballz to step up to the plate.
-
There's another element to this that needs to be mentioned: a swapped tag. In addition to all the repro tags there are plenty of loose real tags being sold and ending up where they don't belong. For Camaros ALL the info has to align: body tag, VIN tag, hidden VINs. There is a '69 currently on ebay that has this problem. This one happens to be easy; it's an LA VIN and a Norwood body tag. Not always this obvious; some body snatchers know enough to be dangerous.
-
I wish I knew all the known details of the original tags that separates them from the fakes, but I believe its a good idea to keep it confidential among those who figured it out. Hell, I wish I knew a lot of things that I didnt have the patience or the passion to figure out on my own. I think I'll settle for appreciating their advice.
John.
-
That's what I wanted in order to make an informed decision should I buy a car. I'm not looking for "Post it here and I'll tell you if it's real or not". Again, without the facts to back it up, it's nothing more than one persons opinion. It's a shame that your members feel they have to sneak around to get the info. out but I'm thankful they had the ballz to step up to the plate.
It's no different on any of the Camaro forums. Sorry. And even with those details, you still can get taken. There's lots of things to check like pad stamps, dates, etc. What's the difference when you ask Al what he thinks about a Corvette engine pad?? NCRS sure doesn't publish pictures of pad stamps.....
And I agree with Bill:
>some body snatchers know enough to be dangerous.
I was just looking thru data and found a car that was supposed to be a nice original with docs, sold several years ago by a seller that's been known to fudge things.
Pretty much guaranteed to be a fake, but it was well-done - noone caught it. That I noticed later was a fluke.
-
I don't need to ask Al G. about engine pads. I feel very confident in that area. You obviously aren't a NCRS member because if you were, you would know they have written many articles about them including pictures in their publication "The Corvette Restorer". There are also a ton of threads on the NCRS forum where people show pads, trim tags, etc. and members respond not only with their opinions, but with the reasons for that opinion as well as examples to compare it to. No secrets in the Corvette world. The Camaro world should follow suit.
-
A wise man once said, or was that Phil ;)... Don't ever get in a spraying match with a skunk because you'll never win ;D !!!
Maybe I'll stick to Corvettes, 66-67 L-79 Novas and 70 LS-6 Chevelles and forget about a Z-28.
Everyone has tried the diplomatic approach with this guy. It obviously isn't working...Dude, you are pissing on all the wrong trees! Your above quote might not be such a bad idea...
-
No offense taken. But it's not gonna change how the Camaro world (or I) operate. Say la V.
-
And to paraphrase another wise saying, "When you're in somebody else's garage, you work by his rules."
-
Maybe someday we will get to the point that we have enough data points to reveal the hows and whys of things without the fear of helping cloners...
Few if any of the other Chevrolet models from 68 and up use cowl tag markings to identify their HP models therefore it is much less of an issue.