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Author Topic: re-stamping a block  (Read 6998 times)
Flowjoe
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« on: April 17, 2006, 07:48:31 PM »

OK, this doesn't involve a Camaro directly but it is subject on which I would like to pick your brains.

a friend acquired a '69 300HP/350CID AT Corvette.  it is very rough and has been in storage a long time (becasue teh previous owner beat on the poor thing).  It had the numbers matching, original engine in it.  One thing lead to another and it ended up being decked at the machine shop.  So now he is considering using one of these services that puts factory style broach marks on the block and then re-stamps that block.   As we understand it, the NCRS says this is OK and will not penalize the car.  We lve in SO-cal so there are at least two palces in LA that do this sort of thing. 

Would you do it?   

An additional problem is that the machine shop has a cautionary tale of a previuos customer who used a palce in LA to do the "broaching" and re-stamping  only to have the block come back with uneven surfaces taht had to be machined all over again.

So, if you would do it, who would you use?
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RickH
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2006, 08:10:27 PM »

The Corvette world seems to have a different outlook then most in the Camaro word. Restamping may be acceptable to the Corvette community but in other circles it's frowned upon very seriously.

That's all I am  going to say.

Rick H.

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Flowjoe
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2006, 10:37:21 PM »

Well I guess that we know where you come down on this issue. ;-)  And it would be safe to assume that you wouldn't do this if it were a Camaro, right?  that's not to come down on you as I am curious to see what other enthusiasts think about the various aspects of this issue

First, I would say that the "corvette world" has traditionally been one of the most picky and critical of all american collector car groups.  So it seemed that if they allow it then it would set something of a standard for the rest of the hobby.

Second, this isn't a case of  Ebay scum fabricating a COPO Camaro for fun and profit...the motor really did have the right stuff on it before...just not now (I myself went throught his with a numbers matching '70 LT-1, 4-speed Corvette a few years back.  the motor blew and it took a  lot to salvage it and when it came back the stamping was much lighter than before..almost unreadable...I was sick.  For an instant I condsidered the restamping but  I  - and several other sets of eyes - decided that it was legible enough as was)  So he is considering it for his own "pleasure"  and to protect his "investment" because realistically he won't keep the car forever.

So, if you have further thoughts I would still like to hear them.  and of course from others.

The Corvette world seems to have a different outlook then most in the Camaro word. Restamping may be acceptable to the Corvette community but in other circles it's frowned upon very seriously.

That's all I am going to say.

Rick H.


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rich69rs
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2006, 04:08:46 PM »

Although, not a cloned car, to me a restamp is still a restamp - originality has been lost in the sense that there now is no way to prove that the restamped engine was original to the car.  Doesn't matter that you know it is original, no way to "prove" it that I am aware of...and a car commanding high $$$$ needs documentation to justify the $$$$.  I don't believe that restamping qualifies as documentation.  To easy to fake. As you state - two shops that you know of that will do this.  Will they only restamp original blocks or will they stamp anything?

If the car is put on the market at some time in the future, and it is clearly stated that the block has been decked and restamped, and the potential buyer acknowledges this and agrees, no harm, no foul....but if that fact is not mentioned, ......now we are into the arena of personal ethics.

Last year I finally installed the correct 327 in my '69RS.  When I bought the car in 1991, it had the wrong 327 in it -   a mismash of parts from a variety of engines.  Over the years, I found the correct 327, pulled it out of a '69 Camaro that was being parted out, engine partial VIN and car VIN agreed, best information said the engine was original to the parts car.  Date code was acceptable.  I needed a FK code, this one was FJ (powerglide vs. 3 spd manual). 

When I had the machine work done on the replacement 327, I fully documented (pictures) the pad stamp prior to sending the engine to the machine shop.  I never considered a restamp.  Kind of proud of the fact that the engine originally installed in a plain jane 3 spd coupe, VIN# 124379N551248; engine code V1122FJ, is now in my ride.

Whoever winds up with my RS after I'm long gone, will also get a plethora of documentation describing everything that I know about the car.  Only being honest with the next owner.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 04:21:43 PM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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lakeholme
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2006, 05:48:55 PM »

The ability to verify is certainly a big issue when it comes to originality.  And I hope originality is the major factor in the true value of cars for a long time to come....
But... like Colvin says in Chevrolet BY the Numbers, the hobby has changed since he started out hunting swap meets years ago.  There are lots of cars now with repo parts and new motors --by some necessity.
But... is a restamped car that is original any worse than a car with a replacement  motor that looks correct but it is still not the original motor?  The hobby certainly sees a lot of that now.  It is pretty much a necessity, too.  I spoke to Tom Cottor in Charlotte a while back.  We're finding less "Cobras in the Barn".
I had a well known restorer from my neck of the woods look at my car right after I bought it, and he said (Quote) "That's one of the most original looking cars I've seen lately"  But... my motor isn't even an original Camaro motor, even though it is the right year and "looks" correct.
Like advised above, just make sure you clearly state what you've done, if you ever sell it.  But... I'm glad you are restoring the car!
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Phillip
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Gambitt
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2006, 08:29:26 PM »

I don't see it as a big deal, as long as there isn't fake paperwork made to make it look legit.  Most anyone can tell when a block has been decked, even with broach marks.  Anyone wishing to shell out big bucks for a first gen needs to be very careful these days.  Personally, if I had the car, it would make me feel better just seeing the correct stamping on the block.

I know, you get into the big argument of, "If you do something like that and sell it, it will end up being represented as something it isn't at some point in time."  Yes, that might be true, but all you can do is be honest about it and hope that others are too...you can't keep the whole world honest:)
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RickH
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 09:55:44 PM »

Not sure how to phrase this but since I have been in this hobby those who restamp are not into it just to make their car "look" correct. And I don't care what anyone says, eventually that car with a restamp will find it's way into the true numbers matching, correct, born with or what ever you want to call it motor and car is 100% original.

Just because the Corvette community does it does't set a standard. Well maybe it does in a more negative way. That's just my opinion.

I watched a lot of Barrett Jackson and every, I mean every Corvette that came across the block was numbers matching. Not one time did I hear the announcer say it wasn't the original motor. I heard a lot of replacement motors in other makes but not in the Corvette.

To answse your question. No I would not restamp and I would not buy a restamp either. That is if I knew it was and was very obvious. That's my take.

To each his own and if that is what you want to do, go for it.

Rick H.

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JohnZ
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2006, 10:43:23 AM »

As we understand it, the NCRS says this is OK and will not penalize the car.

Just to clarify - in NCRS Flight Judging, the key is whether any part "appears" as if it could be original, not whether it IS original (there's another separate judging category for untouched absolutely original cars where only originality is judged, with no consideration for Condition - that's "Star/Bowtie" judging).

Stamp pads are judged on their own merit, and with the library of over 8,000 macro photographs of Corvette engine pads to compare against, what's "typical", what's a known factory anomaly, and what's NOT "typical" are easily detected these days. A pad either appears to be typical of factory production or it doesn't; if it doesn't, it gets the appropriate deduction. Most of the points for the block are allocated to the casting number and casting date, not to the pad; the block is allocated 350 points (out of 4500 for the whole car), and only 88 of those points relate to the pad (25 for the engine plant stamp, 25 for the VIN derivative, and 38 for the pad surface).
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2006, 08:39:02 PM »

I admire the Corvette guys for at least admitting they restamp parts...the Camaro crowd looks down their nose at this, even though it takes place all the time.  It's funny that everyone is against it when it's a Camaro, but it is hard to find a car on ebay that doesn't have at least one restamped part on it.  If you are going to get that picky you shouldn't use any repo parts either, which is totally unrealistic for most people. 
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lcmc
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 11:14:43 PM »

Personally I think restamping a VIN on a block should be illegal. To me it's no different than changing the VIN on a car! I say throw all the owners of shops that restamp in jail!
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Danny
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dab67
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 07:05:41 AM »

It all comes down to how honest you want to be when selling or showing your car. Nothing wrong with re-stamping as long as you present it as such. It is unfortunate that protecting the "numbers" wasn't thought about when rebuilding the engine. Original is only original if you have the "correct" documentation to prove it whether it is a Camaro, Chevelle, GTO, Hemi Charger, Vetter or AMX. As it hass been stated before, there were only so many models of cars built each year how can you have more after the fact?

Dave   67 SS  Camaro --non matching number--
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Gambitt
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2006, 07:41:08 AM »

I totally agree, if something is restamped...just come out and say it is...like the Corvette crowd...but the Camaro crowd hasn't made it to that point yet.  My car will have a couple of restamped parts on it...not vins or anything like that, but I would be crazy to think that a pro couldn't tell it.  I can usually spot a restamp pretty easy and I am far from an expert. 
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dab67
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2006, 11:03:32 AM »

i believe anyone who is a "true" fan or owner of whatever muscle car or vintage car they have believes in being honest. The people that I have had contact with from CRG and Team Camaro are very upfront and honest about what they have or don't have. I can't speak for or defend anyone else because I really haven't been involved. Are there people or groups out to make money the easy way? Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!! Ain't no doubt about it. but that is in all facets of life. You either have to know how to verify original or have faith in what others are telling you or a combination of both.
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PACE&Z2869
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2006, 10:41:47 PM »

Whatever happened to the enjoyment of driving your camaro? Or any old car for that matter? I've owned 6 camaros in my life time so far. My first car at 16 was a 83 camaro with a 4 cyl. Didn't much care about originality back then. As long as it started and ran. Dad didn't think I needed a v-8. He was probably right! Restamping, matching numbers, its all crazy!!!!!  Lets keep it goin!
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PACE&Z2869
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2006, 07:57:05 PM »

You could go through the trouble of having a police crime lab bring the numbers up on the block by stress relieving it.
When a punch is used to stamp numbers in a piece of metal the metal is compressed where the stamp is.
This stresses the metal... there is a process to relieve the stress by heating and quenching with acid or something...
This is how the police find the serial numbers that have been ground off.
It is a one shot deal... so you had better have someone there that can take photos and also notarize the findings.
I have been told that the police will do it for free... as a "learning excersize" for their crime labs.

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James
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