CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Flowjoe on April 18, 2006, 12:48:31 AM

Title: re-stamping a block
Post by: Flowjoe on April 18, 2006, 12:48:31 AM
OK, this doesn't involve a Camaro directly but it is subject on which I would like to pick your brains.

a friend acquired a '69 300HP/350CID AT Corvette.  it is very rough and has been in storage a long time (becasue teh previous owner beat on the poor thing).  It had the numbers matching, original engine in it.  One thing lead to another and it ended up being decked at the machine shop.  So now he is considering using one of these services that puts factory style broach marks on the block and then re-stamps that block.   As we understand it, the NCRS says this is OK and will not penalize the car.  We lve in SO-cal so there are at least two palces in LA that do this sort of thing. 

Would you do it?   

An additional problem is that the machine shop has a cautionary tale of a previuos customer who used a palce in LA to do the "broaching" and re-stamping  only to have the block come back with uneven surfaces taht had to be machined all over again.

So, if you would do it, who would you use?
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: RickH on April 18, 2006, 01:10:27 AM
The Corvette world seems to have a different outlook then most in the Camaro word. Restamping may be acceptable to the Corvette community but in other circles it's frowned upon very seriously.

That's all I am  going to say.

Rick H.

Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: Flowjoe on April 18, 2006, 03:37:21 AM
Well I guess that we know where you come down on this issue. ;-)  And it would be safe to assume that you wouldn't do this if it were a Camaro, right?  that's not to come down on you as I am curious to see what other enthusiasts think about the various aspects of this issue

First, I would say that the "corvette world" has traditionally been one of the most picky and critical of all american collector car groups.  So it seemed that if they allow it then it would set something of a standard for the rest of the hobby.

Second, this isn't a case of  Ebay scum fabricating a COPO Camaro for fun and profit...the motor really did have the right stuff on it before...just not now (I myself went throught his with a numbers matching '70 LT-1, 4-speed Corvette a few years back.  the motor blew and it took a  lot to salvage it and when it came back the stamping was much lighter than before..almost unreadable...I was sick.  For an instant I condsidered the restamping but  I  - and several other sets of eyes - decided that it was legible enough as was)  So he is considering it for his own "pleasure"  and to protect his "investment" because realistically he won't keep the car forever.

So, if you have further thoughts I would still like to hear them.  and of course from others.

The Corvette world seems to have a different outlook then most in the Camaro word. Restamping may be acceptable to the Corvette community but in other circles it's frowned upon very seriously.

That's all I am going to say.

Rick H.


Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: rich69rs on April 18, 2006, 09:08:46 PM
Although, not a cloned car, to me a restamp is still a restamp - originality has been lost in the sense that there now is no way to prove that the restamped engine was original to the car.  Doesn't matter that you know it is original, no way to "prove" it that I am aware of...and a car commanding high $$$$ needs documentation to justify the $$$$.  I don't believe that restamping qualifies as documentation.  To easy to fake. As you state - two shops that you know of that will do this.  Will they only restamp original blocks or will they stamp anything?

If the car is put on the market at some time in the future, and it is clearly stated that the block has been decked and restamped, and the potential buyer acknowledges this and agrees, no harm, no foul....but if that fact is not mentioned, ......now we are into the arena of personal ethics.

Last year I finally installed the correct 327 in my '69RS.  When I bought the car in 1991, it had the wrong 327 in it -   a mismash of parts from a variety of engines.  Over the years, I found the correct 327, pulled it out of a '69 Camaro that was being parted out, engine partial VIN and car VIN agreed, best information said the engine was original to the parts car.  Date code was acceptable.  I needed a FK code, this one was FJ (powerglide vs. 3 spd manual). 

When I had the machine work done on the replacement 327, I fully documented (pictures) the pad stamp prior to sending the engine to the machine shop.  I never considered a restamp.  Kind of proud of the fact that the engine originally installed in a plain jane 3 spd coupe, VIN# 124379N551248; engine code V1122FJ, is now in my ride.

Whoever winds up with my RS after I'm long gone, will also get a plethora of documentation describing everything that I know about the car.  Only being honest with the next owner.
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: lakeholme on April 18, 2006, 10:48:55 PM
The ability to verify is certainly a big issue when it comes to originality.  And I hope originality is the major factor in the true value of cars for a long time to come....
But... like Colvin says in Chevrolet BY the Numbers, the hobby has changed since he started out hunting swap meets years ago.  There are lots of cars now with repo parts and new motors --by some necessity.
But... is a restamped car that is original any worse than a car with a replacement  motor that looks correct but it is still not the original motor?  The hobby certainly sees a lot of that now.  It is pretty much a necessity, too.  I spoke to Tom Cottor in Charlotte a while back.  We're finding less "Cobras in the Barn".
I had a well known restorer from my neck of the woods look at my car right after I bought it, and he said (Quote) "That's one of the most original looking cars I've seen lately"  But... my motor isn't even an original Camaro motor, even though it is the right year and "looks" correct.
Like advised above, just make sure you clearly state what you've done, if you ever sell it.  But... I'm glad you are restoring the car!
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: Gambitt on April 19, 2006, 01:29:26 AM
I don't see it as a big deal, as long as there isn't fake paperwork made to make it look legit.  Most anyone can tell when a block has been decked, even with broach marks.  Anyone wishing to shell out big bucks for a first gen needs to be very careful these days.  Personally, if I had the car, it would make me feel better just seeing the correct stamping on the block.

I know, you get into the big argument of, "If you do something like that and sell it, it will end up being represented as something it isn't at some point in time."  Yes, that might be true, but all you can do is be honest about it and hope that others are too...you can't keep the whole world honest:)
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: RickH on April 19, 2006, 02:55:44 AM
Not sure how to phrase this but since I have been in this hobby those who restamp are not into it just to make their car "look" correct. And I don't care what anyone says, eventually that car with a restamp will find it's way into the true numbers matching, correct, born with or what ever you want to call it motor and car is 100% original.

Just because the Corvette community does it does't set a standard. Well maybe it does in a more negative way. That's just my opinion.

I watched a lot of Barrett Jackson and every, I mean every Corvette that came across the block was numbers matching. Not one time did I hear the announcer say it wasn't the original motor. I heard a lot of replacement motors in other makes but not in the Corvette.

To answse your question. No I would not restamp and I would not buy a restamp either. That is if I knew it was and was very obvious. That's my take.

To each his own and if that is what you want to do, go for it.

Rick H.

Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: JohnZ on April 19, 2006, 03:43:23 PM
As we understand it, the NCRS says this is OK and will not penalize the car.

Just to clarify - in NCRS Flight Judging, the key is whether any part "appears" as if it could be original, not whether it IS original (there's another separate judging category for untouched absolutely original cars where only originality is judged, with no consideration for Condition - that's "Star/Bowtie" judging).

Stamp pads are judged on their own merit, and with the library of over 8,000 macro photographs of Corvette engine pads to compare against, what's "typical", what's a known factory anomaly, and what's NOT "typical" are easily detected these days. A pad either appears to be typical of factory production or it doesn't; if it doesn't, it gets the appropriate deduction. Most of the points for the block are allocated to the casting number and casting date, not to the pad; the block is allocated 350 points (out of 4500 for the whole car), and only 88 of those points relate to the pad (25 for the engine plant stamp, 25 for the VIN derivative, and 38 for the pad surface).
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: Gambitt on April 20, 2006, 01:39:02 AM
I admire the Corvette guys for at least admitting they restamp parts...the Camaro crowd looks down their nose at this, even though it takes place all the time.  It's funny that everyone is against it when it's a Camaro, but it is hard to find a car on ebay that doesn't have at least one restamped part on it.  If you are going to get that picky you shouldn't use any repo parts either, which is totally unrealistic for most people. 
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: lcmc on April 20, 2006, 04:14:43 AM
Personally I think restamping a VIN on a block should be illegal. To me it's no different than changing the VIN on a car! I say throw all the owners of shops that restamp in jail!
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: dab67 on April 20, 2006, 12:05:41 PM
It all comes down to how honest you want to be when selling or showing your car. Nothing wrong with re-stamping as long as you present it as such. It is unfortunate that protecting the "numbers" wasn't thought about when rebuilding the engine. Original is only original if you have the "correct" documentation to prove it whether it is a Camaro, Chevelle, GTO, Hemi Charger, Vetter or AMX. As it hass been stated before, there were only so many models of cars built each year how can you have more after the fact?

Dave   67 SS  Camaro --non matching number--
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: Gambitt on April 20, 2006, 12:41:08 PM
I totally agree, if something is restamped...just come out and say it is...like the Corvette crowd...but the Camaro crowd hasn't made it to that point yet.  My car will have a couple of restamped parts on it...not vins or anything like that, but I would be crazy to think that a pro couldn't tell it.  I can usually spot a restamp pretty easy and I am far from an expert. 
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: dab67 on April 20, 2006, 04:03:32 PM
i believe anyone who is a "true" fan or owner of whatever muscle car or vintage car they have believes in being honest. The people that I have had contact with from CRG and Team Camaro are very upfront and honest about what they have or don't have. I can't speak for or defend anyone else because I really haven't been involved. Are there people or groups out to make money the easy way? Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!!!!! Ain't no doubt about it. but that is in all facets of life. You either have to know how to verify original or have faith in what others are telling you or a combination of both.
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: PACE&Z2869 on April 21, 2006, 03:41:47 AM
Whatever happened to the enjoyment of driving your camaro? Or any old car for that matter? I've owned 6 camaros in my life time so far. My first car at 16 was a 83 camaro with a 4 cyl. Didn't much care about originality back then. As long as it started and ran. Dad didn't think I needed a v-8. He was probably right! Restamping, matching numbers, its all crazy!!!!!  Lets keep it goin!
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: firstgenaddict on June 14, 2006, 12:57:05 AM
You could go through the trouble of having a police crime lab bring the numbers up on the block by stress relieving it.
When a punch is used to stamp numbers in a piece of metal the metal is compressed where the stamp is.
This stresses the metal... there is a process to relieve the stress by heating and quenching with acid or something...
This is how the police find the serial numbers that have been ground off.
It is a one shot deal... so you had better have someone there that can take photos and also notarize the findings.
I have been told that the police will do it for free... as a "learning excersize" for their crime labs.

Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: x77-69z28 on June 14, 2006, 02:45:27 PM
while redoing my 67 rs-ss, i purposely did not redo the engine for fear that the block would have to be decked. i put a timing chain in it along with  nos oil pan and intake gaskets and that was it. i feel that if you have to replace the vin, you should not restamp it. my 05A Z-28 has the vin stamped by the oil filter, but had the block decked in 1979, before original was important. i dont "THINK" it is wrong to just put the engine numbers back as long as it does not include the vin. just my .02cents
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: 19HoosierDaddies67 on June 16, 2006, 12:42:59 AM
This boils down to a question of ethics.  If you lost your drivers license and it was cheaper to go down to Los Angeles to buy a replacement would you do it, most likely not because you would be encouraging the criminal element.  I think the same applys here, the shops that do this type of work on not making money helping out poor guys who "mistakenly" ground off their Vin and engine numbers, they are making money helping people fake high dollar cars to get more money out of the sale at some point.  I wouldn't restamp it because you cannot control the guy who owns the car 3 owners down the line who is selling it as original, someone will get burned by this car at some point.
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: nuch_ss396 on June 16, 2006, 02:24:00 AM
I have a question to pose here.  This won't help the discussion, but rather raise more questions.

Most of the COPO cars, Yenko cars, SS big blocks, Z/28's, etc. were bought with the intent of beating the pi$$ out of them. 
That being said, what is the liklihood that so many of these cars retained their original engines & transmissions post racing?  Remember, back in the mid-1970's, big block engines were a dime-a-dozen.  Also, who among us doesn't remember one or
more late night engine swaps due to spun bearings, thrown rods, etc.?

I just wonder what will happen when an engine block shows up on eBay or else where that has the VIN of an "already existing"
engine.  just think of that recent sale of the tractor trailers full of GM muscle cars & engines.  I wonder if any of those blocks have
duplicates already installed. ::)

Steve
Title: Re: re-stamping a block
Post by: Pacecarjeff on June 16, 2006, 03:36:19 AM
My 63 Corvette's block had been partially decked.
3 of the original numbers are still visible. (off to one side)

A good friend of mine is a detective with the local police auto theft division.

He worked on my pad for few hours. We finally had to stop,
The existing numbers were starting to suffer.

That stuff only works when you don't care what you end up with.
In other words, it can turn the whole pad into shadows.
The acid removes the metal, untill the shadow of the numbers are all that is visible.
It works great when someone has tried to scratch out the numbers.
Not so good when the top of the pad has been decked away.

I decided to just keep what little bit I had. :o
Not going to restamp, NEVER - just going to leave it the way it is.
Once it is stamped - it will alway be a restamp.

NCRS knows when those numbers are restamped. (because of the huge database)
They deduct points same as if it is a repro part. With NO numbers - you would get a bigger deduction.

When I sell the car, I can honestly say that "those are the original numbers" - just some are missing.

Better than having a restamped block, in my opinion anyways ???