Author Topic: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them  (Read 6611 times)

smith69z

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Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« on: January 22, 2009, 02:29:16 PM »
My car (69z) is almost ready for paint and I am being asked by the painter if I what to feel the stripes or not. When a car is judged do the stripes need to be felt? Base then stripe and clear, or base, clear, strip, clear?
Thanks as always! Don

Sauron327

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 02:33:25 PM »
Correct is stripes over the clear (or single stage solid color, if that's the system you are using). Never under the clear. A lot of guys clear over them. if you want it correct...don't do it.

jmcbeth

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 05:38:18 PM »
The judges at Camaro Nationals (Legends Class) will run their finger over the edge of the stripe to see if they can feel the edge. If they can't you lose points. I forget how many points I lost, but it was not a trivial amount. I recommend you have it painted so you can feel them.
John
1969 Camaro Z/28 RS
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smith69z

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 06:20:24 PM »
OK, I will tell the painter to go base, 3 coats clear, strips, 2 coats clear. That should give me the edge feel to the strips. Thanks!

tom

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 11:13:34 PM »
Make sure the painter knows you want to FEEL the stripes if you are planning to have the car judged.
69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speed
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Sauron327

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 11:21:31 PM »
Naturally to each his own. I think either bury the stripe and make it perfectly smooth or shoot single stage over the clear for the stripes. Why do it in between? Clearing the stripe is more akin to a custom paint job. I do it when I airbrush graphics or pictorials. Many will disagree and have said clearing over better than the factory did it. But we are talking about restoration here, not a custom paint job. I did not even clear the stripe on my jane. If it were custom, or pro touring it would not matter.
 Quoting Jerry M. from a previous thread on painting debates:

     " The BC systems and single stage stripes over top has worked well at the Camaro Nationals in the Legends Class.  And very much looks like the original cars when they were new.  What boggles my mind is why so many people still choose to clear coat over everything.  It's not correct, does not make the car look any better and does not add anything to the value of the car."

You can tell if it's been cleared without even touching it.







m22mike

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 01:49:50 AM »
Ditto to what was said already.....Single stage the stripes on top of the last coat of clear, sand and buff. Don't clear over the SS. I have done more than a few this way and they look like a million. And with the high quality tape the edge lines are perfect and smooth out very nice with sanding and buffing.

    Mike
X66 L78 M22 4.10 Deluxe Threads, PNT 10/10, Red Hockey stripe

RamAirDave

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 05:47:33 AM »
You can feel the stripe edge even if they're under the clear.  It's the cut/buff that removes the edge, and if you're trying to accurately replicate factory paint you wouldn't be totally slicking out the paint anyway, right?

Now of course I know that's not how it's done and won't score well on the judging sheet.  Very few restorers that I am aware of actually try to replicate how the paint looked straight out of the factory.  Some even refuse to remove the orange peel even if the client requests it. 

It's always seemed (to me, at least) to be an oxymoron to have a mile-deep, mirror-smooth BC/CC, but still feel the stripe edge.
"Build them how the designers and engineers envisioned them to be"

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69Z28-RS

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 09:05:31 AM »
it's very interesting to me that you guys are talking *restoration* AND *clear coat* in the same sentences....   the original cars did NOT get clear coat.   If you want to get as close as you can to the original lacquer in *look*, you should shoot single stage for color AND stripes..  without clear.   OR do it MORE originally and use lacquer all the way .. NO clear...
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Sauron327

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 12:23:36 PM »
it's very interesting to me that you guys are talking *restoration* AND *clear coat* in the same sentences....   the original cars did NOT get clear coat.   If you want to get as close as you can to the original lacquer in *look*, you should shoot single stage for color AND stripes..  without clear.   OR do it MORE originally and use lacquer all the way .. NO clear...

This debate has risen before. BC/CC urethane has become acceptable while maintaining parameters of correct striping techniqes. As in not burying the stripes. Single stage metallics cannot be buffed without distrupting the metallic.    Refraction and reflection is then altered and it will be evident. So BC/CC systems are used. Lacquer was reflowed, leveling the surface finish without physically distrupting the metallic flakes. Acceptable for that era. The dynamics of painting and properties are too great to be brief. Fellow painters will understand the variables and procedures.
 Do a search "Lacquer or BC" for more debates.

smith69z

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 12:59:21 PM »
Thanks again for all this input guys!!! Not sure as I type what direction I should go.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 04:16:38 PM »
it's very interesting to me that you guys are talking *restoration* AND *clear coat* in the same sentences....   the original cars did NOT get clear coat.   If you want to get as close as you can to the original lacquer in *look*, you should shoot single stage for color AND stripes..  without clear.   OR do it MORE originally and use lacquer all the way .. NO clear...

This debate has risen before. BC/CC urethane has become acceptable while maintaining parameters of correct striping techniqes. As in not burying the stripes. Single stage metallics cannot be buffed without distrupting the metallic.    Refraction and reflection is then altered and it will be evident. So BC/CC systems are used. Lacquer was reflowed, leveling the surface finish without physically distrupting the metallic flakes. Acceptable for that era. The dynamics of painting and properties are too great to be brief. Fellow painters will understand the variables and procedures.
 Do a search "Lacquer or BC" for more debates.

I've been involved in 3 or 4 other national organizatinos (Nomads, Classic Chevys, and Corvettes), and in NONE of them is basecoat/clearcoat systems *approved* for 'original points in judging.   The urethane paints are FAR superior to the original lacquers in durability, but there is NO way to get the same 'look' with it... NOT with clear over it.    Using an opaque urethane single stage can get a similar appearance with the durability. . but ..   people use clear coat for one reason (SHINE and depth)...   and it's much easier than doing anything else these days, but it is not anything close to *original*....
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Sauron327

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 09:22:47 PM »
69Z28-RS,
              Lacquer was primarily what I shot 25 years ago, everyday vehicles aside. I'm aware of the differences. It's common knowledge that lacquer and urethane possess diffent properties resulting in different appearances. It will be interesting to see what occurs in 30 years or less as paint technology changes yet again. As it does even now. Thankfully, someone else will have to figure out how to properly prepare a car for zero point deductions.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2009, 04:27:06 AM »
The best way to paint a car is VERY DIFFERENT than how an auto organization should judge in an ORIGINAL class..   if a lacquered car, or one with original paint, doesn't get more points than a base/clear paint job in an original class, then that is a problem with the judging system.  If not, this organization is 'making up their own rules' that are inconsistent with every other auto organization out there.   In all other organizations, each category of 'ORIGINAL' is judged on two things:  1) Originality, and 2) Condition.   Lacquer paint should be the only thing that gets all the 'originallity' points, as for the deductions for various categories of non-original, then that is a judgement call for the organizatio nto provide pointers for consistency.
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Jerry@CHP

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Re: Stripes - to feel them or not to feel them
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 04:45:07 AM »
Base coat clear coat systems are allowed.  The stripes should be over the color and clear coat if you want full credit at the natiionals. 

Lacquer of today is nothing like it was in the 1960s.  Don't make the mistake of painting your car in lacquer today, it does not hold up like oem GM lacquer.  I decided to paint my red '68 Z28 in lacauer 20 years ago and now it needs to be painted again.  Good painters can make the new systems look very close to oem paint.  My new '67 Z28 race car is very close to what they were in 1967.  Don't believe me, come to the Camaro Nationals this year or one of the NHRA races and you can see for yourself.

Jerry