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Author Topic: O-1 convertible paint  (Read 13751 times)
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2008, 03:21:06 PM »

Why not spend this energy on another topic that will help the hobby and people.  I do not understand why they beat this dead horse to death.

Jerry   
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trainz11
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 08:00:42 AM »

Was informed about this thread, and thought I would offer a response. Would like to say that the article clearly states we are a work in progress, this is stated on page 1. The paint is still being examined and I'm sorry that we do our research out in public. By posting our work in public we feel we are able to operate more as a team, instead of a group of individuals. The team concept seems to work well for us.

As far as beating a dead horse, I agree, I am tired of it too! But I am also tired of so many unanswered questions about the 0-1 paint used on the pace cars. Was the paint enamel or lacquer (speaking of 03C cars)? What color was the white? Can or does the 0 code only indicate a wetsand and buff of the lacquer paint? Until these questions have complete fact based answers, then the horse isn't dead yet.

Quite simply, if it was Ermine white lacquer, then why the 0 code? Looks to me like Secretariat has a couple more laps around the 0 code paint track to me.

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 10:05:58 AM »

O code means special paint instructions, period, it has nothing to do with the color or type of paint,  Got a bunch of 0 coded 67 Camaro tags that were all kinds of colors.

Specifically in regards to the 67 PCs the cars were painted per the FSO documentation that accompanied the cars in the plant. (documented by the instructions on the bottom of a body broadcast sheet of an 03C O-1 Pacecar.)  It told the body shop exactly what color to use on the car, nose stripe and pin stripes, along wth the instructions to cut and polish the paint.  find a copy of the FSO paperwork and all your questions will be answered for you.
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Mark C.
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trainz11
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2008, 06:37:18 PM »

Mark,
Thanks for the reply. Up to now, I have never seen any (FSO paperwork) for a pace car. Am assuming you don't have a copy either for a pace car. Would you as share any example (FSO fso paperwork)  that is for one of the many other 0 coded 67's that you have mentioned that were a variety of colors?

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 07:44:47 PM »

I don't think anyone has seen FSO paperwork outside of the factory.  Closest I've seen in the ECL sheet for the 2 styling study ZL1's (the black and gold ones) which just says the vehicles will painted in accordance with the GM styling drawing 115707-L (which I don't have).  Obviously this drawing was present in the body shops to reference when the cars came thru. (remember the front end was no where near the car itself when it was painted, and the only tie to the front end and the rest of the car was the broadcast sheet and the fact that the body was locked into the same sequence as the front end sheetmetal on the assembly line.

I would think that a fleet order (like the first batch of 67 PCs) would have a document that was present in the two body shops at Norwood that would identify anything special that had to be done the the cars, like the blue nose and pin stripes otherwise the white car would have received black stripes.  The O on the tag, and on the braodcast sheet (theres really just a dot in the upper and or lower color box on a BBC on a special paint instruction car) was just there as an attention getter that said to check the paperwork for that car.  The O3 PC that I have the body broadcast sheet for specifically says to paint the car per the FSO on the bottom of it.  It probably also identified the part number for the door decals with instructions for them to be placed in the trunk of the car.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 07:59:37 PM by Mark » Logged

Mark C.
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trainz11
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2008, 01:47:16 AM »

Mark,

I couldn't think of a better place to post and share something like that broadcast sheet than right here. Would you consider doing that? Or maybe you would feel more comfortable sending it in an email or PM. That would be great, though I would think the other guys here would like to see it also. Is it an original, or a copy of the original? What a great document to possess, greater yet to share.

If you are not at liberty to divulge this information, would you consider releasing the owners name of the car (in a PM or email for privacy) so I could attempt to contact him and discuss the document and his car with him?

I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Quote
The O on the tag, and on the braodcast sheet (theres really just a dot in the upper and or lower color box on a BBC on a special paint instruction car) was just there as an attention getter that said to check the paperwork for that car.  The O3 PC that I have the body broadcast sheet for specifically says to paint the car per the FSO on the bottom of it.  It probably also identified the part number for the door decals with instructions for them to be placed in the trunk of the car.
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Mark
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2008, 05:28:21 AM »

I have the same problem here as I had over at camaropacecarsdotcom.  The BBC isn't mine and I don't have the owners permsiion to post it (don't even know who the owner is) so I can't post it up unless he (she) lets me.  VIN is 205856 if anyone knows who owns it today.

The bottom of the BBC (below the option boxes) says:

ST TOP 1001AA
PT PER F
SO  PACE CAR       REPLICA

means ST standard top, 1001 special paint AA no extra charge
PT PER FSO = Paint per Fleet Sales Order
and that its a pace car.

Just a note about the above, the FSO paperwork would have the info about the decals, not the BBC.
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Mark C.
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trainz11
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2008, 10:04:22 PM »

Mark,

Would you have the broadcast sheet for any of the 0- coded cars you mention that were painted several different colors? Could you share one here?

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2008, 10:24:39 PM »

Nope, finding a Norwood BBC is like finding a 4 leaf clover to begin with, finding one for a special paint car would be like finding a 5 leaf clover.  Looked closer at the BBC for the PC and its an 04A car, not a 03C one, FSO is 061A.

Ive got tag info on 177 O- code 67 and 68 Camaros, 73 of those are pace cars, 6 of the 67 year cars are LA cars (no Pacecars or even convertibles in this group), 9 more non pacecars are Norwood built cars.  Californians seem to like orange colored cars in 67, 4 of these 6 were some shade of orange originally, theres another 31 LA built 68's with the 0- codes the rest, 55 are Norwood 68's.  Theres a few of those powder blue (Colorado, or Carolina blue) colored cars, and the rest are all over the spectrum, some are normal colors without Z28 stripes, or odd colored stripes, but the vast majority are unknown what the original color was or if they were stripe delete as they had been refinished.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 10:35:13 PM by Mark » Logged

Mark C.
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2008, 12:08:18 PM »


I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Hi Steve, if you look under the members user name you chose to contact you will see three boxes that if you drag your mouse arrow to will pop up profile, email address, and personal message. Its pretty simple.

Pat
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KurtS
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2008, 02:51:57 PM »

O-1 probably simply meant "Ermine White, show paint". The other pacers at the track were C-1, meaning Ermine White (as factory delivered). Obviously, they knew the O-1 paint cars were going to be in public display applications.

I highly doubt they wanted two different color white cars at the track (Ermine vs some other white) nor two different repair procedures (enamel vs lacquer), not to mention the problems of even trying to paint enamel in the plant.
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trainz11
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2008, 08:42:08 PM »

it didn't smell like enamel when we sanded it and we painted it wih lacquer and it went on fine.

This is an excellent point Marv brings up. The factory enamels, when aged, have a distinctively different oder when sanded. Wonder what happened to Marv? Sounds like he has an significantly important car. Hope he checks back in.
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trainz11
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2008, 09:22:30 PM »

Thanks Pat!  Guess I was just looking in the wrong spot. Lot of different technology here. I remember some time back that you had mentioned (on the other channel) you also believed the 0- coding for the paint represented special instructions for the paint.  Always sounded very believeable, but left me with a couple of questions.



I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Hi Steve, if you look under the members user name you chose to contact you will see three boxes that if you drag your mouse arrow to will pop up profile, email address, and personal message. Its pretty simple.

Pat
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trainz11
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 06:26:53 AM »

I would agree that at the current time the Ermine White, cut and buffed, seems to be very likely what the 0- paint on the pace cars was. Though more testing is being conducted to take this out of the "popular opinion" and "best guess" column. 1967 dated Chevrolet, Fisher, or paint supplier docs would be superior, but just don't seem to be there.

The two colors of white being used for 67 pace cars might seem very unlikely, until you examine the 1964 Ford Mustang Indy Pace Car program. Ford Mustangs that were used at the race as pace cars were painted a bright white that matched the Ford pickup trucks. The bright white was the exact same color as the trucks, though Ford re-named the color  "Indy Pace Car white" for the pace cars. Ford also built replica Mustang pace cars in a more cream colored white which was a standard production color known as "Wimbledon white".  Precedent had been set in 1964 to have your true Pace cars match the trucks, and have the replicas a different shade of the same color, white. Did Chevy use 2 colors of white on the pace cars? The document supported truth is not known. That's why the tests continue, to try and take this out of the "best guess" column, and place it firmly in a "test document supported" findings column. Not as good as factory docs, but it might be as good as possible 41+years later.
O-1 probably simply meant "Ermine White, show paint". The other pacers at the track were C-1, meaning Ermine White (as factory delivered). Obviously, they knew the O-1 paint cars were going to be in public display applications.

I highly doubt they wanted two different color white cars at the track (Ermine vs some other white) nor two different repair procedures (enamel vs lacquer), not to mention the problems of even trying to paint enamel in the plant.
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Mark
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 11:30:58 AM »

Not exactly true according to mustang sources.  there was only 35 or so Pacecars at the track and they were obtained from production cars already at dealerships around the country.  Only the 2 actual pace cars and the winners cars were specially prepared for use at the track. 

In 1964, Ford had the Galaxie poised to pace the Indianapolis 500. That changed when Mustang madness swept the nation. But Ford had a serious problem: not enough Mustangs to meet consumer demand, much less the added demand of a racing event where more than three dozen convertibles were needed.  Indy 500 officials from the period have SAID that those responsible for the pace car program at Ford were scrambling to find suitably equipped Mustang convertibles prior to the race. To pacify Indy officials, Ford shipped 35 '64 Galaxie 500 convertibles in March, which were replaced by Mustang convertibles early in May.

The 35 Wimbledon White Mustang convertibles varied in the way they were optioned because many of them were sourced from Ford dealers within a sizable radius around Indianapolis. Each of these convertibles was D-code 289-4V-equipped. Interiors were red, white, or blue vinyl. Some had Cruise-O-Matics while others had four-speeds. Each had the Indy 500 graphics made for Ford by 3M.

Ford shipped these convertibles to Louisville, Kentucky, shortly after the race and sold them to dealers with the highest bids. Alderman Ford in Indianapolis successfully bid on a dozen or so of the pace car replicas. Needless to say, these cars sold quickly. What makes them hard to track is their status as run-of-the-mill production units. No special DSO codes or paint color.

While they don't yet know enough about the 35 festival convertibles, they do know something about the three actual Holman-Moody-prepared pace car convertibles built to pace the race. One paced the race. The other two were backup cars. The cars were all painted Wimbledon White. On race day only 2 of these cars actually made the parade lap, as the third ran into mechanical difficulties. Their vehicle identification numbers were 5F08F100240, 5F08F100241, and 5F08F100242, indicating all were 260-2V convertibles. All had significant chassis preparation. Each was fitted with a Holman-Moody-prepared 289ci V-8 engine.  Each of these Mustangs was fitted with grab bars and two-way radios. All three were produced as 260-2V convertibles and shipped to Holman-Moody. One of these cars survives today in Florida, owned by Bruce Weiss. The other two haven't been accounted for.

So, how do the approximately 190 Pace Car White Mustang hardtops fit into the pace car picture? For one thing, the pace car hardtop replicas really have little in common with the 38 Wimbledon White drop-tops at Indy. These pace car hardtops were Pace Car White (Color Code "C", 1964 only), had Trim Code 42 (white with blue appointments) interiors, and were equipped with the "F" code 260-2V V-8 with Cruise-O-Matic transmission.  Note that none of these were actually at the Indianapolis 500, they were just replicas built for general use, just like the vast majority of the Z11's.

The hardtops were produced for the Checkered and Green Flag contests, which were dealer incentives designed to both promote the new Mustang and indicate the Mustang's status as the official Indy 500 pace car for 1964. Each sales district arranged its dealers into groups based on sales volume in the preceding 12 months. A sales objective for April 1964 was established for each dealer in each group. Dealers who exceeded their sales objective by the greatest percentage in its group qualified to compete against all other group winners in the district.

Ford had already decided the total number of winners because the pace car replicas were assembled consecutively in mid-April 1964. The total number of winners, by district, was also predetermined since each of the pace car hardtops had a standard two-digit DSO code on the warranty plate. There were five standard-order DSO code pace car Mustangs per sales district for a total of 180 units. Each sales district determined the allocation of winners based on the best percentage of sales. The very best were declared Checker Flag winners. Second Place winners were Green Flag contest winners. Ford was aiming for an even split between the two contests. But it didn't turn out that way.

Since each sales district had considerable flexibility in conducting their contests and determining winners, the number of winners of each contest was inconsistent among the districts. There were many ties between dealers, particularly small-volume dealers. This created logistics issues across the land. Ford had already produced 180 hardtops for the two contests, but they needed more as a result of the ties. Approximately 10 more Pace Car White hardtops had to be produced in early May to meet the need. They say "approximately 10" because it has never been determined with documentation how many were produced. This is based on available documentation that addresses winning dealers.

Because these additional pace car hardtops were ordered internally by Ford, with no idea who the winning dealers would be at the time, they were ordered as DSO 84 (Home Office Reserve) units.

Checkered Flag winners (105 of them) were invited to Dearborn, Michigan, to pick up their free Mustang pace car hardtops in a nice ceremony with then-Ford Division General Manager Lee Iacocca. Dealers had the option of driving their winnings home or having them shipped. Green Flag winners had to stay home and pay for their prize with a $500 discount.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:37:11 AM by Mark » Logged

Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
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