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Author Topic: O-1 convertible paint  (Read 13555 times)
MtnMan67
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« on: August 15, 2008, 10:01:04 AM »

i have an 0-1 ragtop that is one of the 67 pacecars  the family has owned it 35 years
my buddy said he saw a magazine recently that said the paint on the pacecars was enamel
my dad and i painted it years ago, it was lacqer. we put lacqer on top of it

sorry, for the bad typeing, im not good on computers.

Marv
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Marv
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 11:30:27 AM »

Marv, although you'll get argument over this, and I don't want to speak for the entire CRG membership, but I believe we're all in agreement that the enamel theory just doesn't hold water. I'll let Mark Canning give the details since he's more of an expert than I am, but there would have been a lot of "problems" for Fisher changing from lacquer to enamel and then back to lacquer again.

Ed
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ccargo
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 12:46:14 PM »

The pace cars in question in the laquer enamal debate are only those built in build week 03C per the cowl tag. We'd appreciate your input here on your experience with the repaint if your car is in that build date?
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MtnMan67
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »

i see that code on the tag. it is 03C  124677n192xxx
my dad bought it from a friend of his in 71 or 72. been in our family since.

sorry, i even mispelled typing
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Marv
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 03:44:30 PM »

It seems you have a festival car there thats very exciting. Hold on for one of the CRG members to gather your tag data in private for confirmation. They will have "CRG Member" in their title. I used to own the very first built festival car N191975 as it is the first assigned GM VIN known of the 43 festival cars and thats all that counts despite other wild theories elsewhere regarding the lowest carb date, carpet date or fisher body number as somehow being relevant in any significant way. I now have an 04A 396 0-1 built 04A that I'm restoring. The festival car I owned is being restored by a friend of mine and retains miuch of its original paint as it recieved only a exterior trim on repaint at one time. A quick sanding test yielded signs of it being laquer based in the opinion of the restoration shop. Other tests will be performed shortly on that subject car and posted here.
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KurtS
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 01:38:36 AM »

There are a lot of reasons to doubt that any 67-69 Camaros were painted enamel.
Both plants were setup for laquer and a lot is required to switch to enamel. A lot more than 43 regular production cars (the festival pacers) would warrant.
They wanted a good finish on those cars and the last thing they would do is switch to a paint formula that the repair shop and the whole plant was unfamiliar with. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
No less any touch-up at the race would be problematic, esp if only half the pacers got enamel and the other half got laquer.

Marv,
What led you to believe your car was laquer?
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Kurt S
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 08:48:36 AM »

Take enamel reducer, not Lacquer thinnner and see if it softens the paint... even catlyzed enamel will soften with with the reducer, although it may take longer.
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 09:24:15 AM »

What would enamel reducer do to lacquer?  I also find it hard to believe that the first batch of O-1 cars could have been painted in enamel, at least in the normal assembly line due to the different flash times, drying temperatures etc. but the guys over at camaropacecars.com seem to have at  some evidence that at least some of them were.  Now I could never get them to tell me how many of the first batches they have found enamel on, and of those that they do have, they know for sure none have been reapainted.  If I'm GM Im not going to have a batch of cars that are going to be on public display at a very high visibility function get painted with a product the assembly plants are not used to using, just to get a slighlty more durable finish on them.  I was always under the impression that "show cars" made for the last 50 or so years were always painted with lacquer finish anyway due to its ability to be polished to a mirror finish, as well as the ability to put more layers of paint down in a shorter period of time without getting to thick a film thickness.

I guess I'll just have to wait to see what evidence the other site really has.  Then if they really are painted in enamel I'll let them explain how it was done in a plant setup to paint lacquer.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 09:54:08 AM »

Nothing... It is what I have always used to take enamel paint off of Lacquer... the whole engine compartment of the 69 RS/Z survivor was painted with black bug bomb and I cleaned all of it off the inner fenders, radiator support, tie bars etc etc, it left all phospahting and orignal paint intact.

I am in agreement with you Mark... I find it VERY difficult to explain a change from Lacquer to Enamel. The show paint jobs of the time were 10-14 coats of Lacquer, color sanded and buffed, they shined like nothing else.
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 10:41:43 AM »

If you use enamel, how long do you need to wait before buffing and polishing?

Plus if enamel was used, you can paint enamel over the lacquer based primer system (don't knw how soon you can do it though) but when it came time to blackout the firewall and other areas that might have enamel overspray on them, you can't use the lacquer based blackout paint.  Your almost forceing the plant to come up with not only the enamel body color paint, but every other paint that was used on the line had to be enamel.  Theres no way that would happen in the plant.  It would almost demand that the cars be painted off line somewhere, but as I understand it, theres no place in the plant where you could put 50 some odd cars so they could be stripped down and completely repainted (or painted) in enamel. 

The assembly plants were paid based on the number of cars produced, so they would not be to keen on spending alot of extra time on these cars.  If it cost them 200 "regular" cars production for a day so they could spend time on these cars, thats probably 3/4 of a million dollars of lost production.  I doubt corporate GM is going to give the assembly plant a check for that amount (or anysignificant amount) for spending time painting cars, when the normal paint (lacquer) used would have been more than adequate.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2008, 10:54:13 AM »

You definately can't put Lacquer over enamel , it will lift like no other...
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
MtnMan67
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2008, 09:03:08 PM »

it didn't smell like enamel when we sanded it and we painted it wih lacquer and it went on fine.
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Marv
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 10:11:30 AM »

Hi Marv!

Have you checked your inside rear view mirror yet for any sort of numbers or glue residue?
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 01:44:11 PM »

I am just amazed that this lacquer-enamel continues to be an issue on these forums.  GM always used lacquer to paint their vehicles.  When I was writing my first 1967-68 Camaro fact book during the late 1980s, many of the Norwood workers were transferred to the Baltimore plant rather than take a lay off.  I interviewed 10-15 workers at that time, two of them were painters.  Both painters told me that all Camaros were sprayed in lacquer.  Enamel never came up.  And at this time, these cars were only 20 years old so their memories were still very clear.  One of the guys rememebered building the first batches of ZL1 Camaros.  This group of employees were also the ones who told me about the PTB stamps meaning paint, body and trim inspection.  I broke the code on this way back then.  Larry Price (think that was his name) was a quality control person at Norwood and was involved with these processes during the late 1960s.

John Hinckley was there.  And from the knowledge and experience that he had being there in the thick of it all, I can't believe that this Pace Car paint enamel controversy continues to keep going on and on and on.

Jerry   
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Mark
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2008, 09:24:10 PM »

Not only does it continue but it was recently printed as gospel in Muscle Car Review (I think) in an article about the 67 Pacecars.  The source for the article was the guys over at camaropacecarsdotcom.  I got banned from that site recently, by simply asking how it was possible to paint the cars in enamel, while still building another 850 laquer painted cars on the same day, which they could not answer.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2008, 03:21:06 PM »

Why not spend this energy on another topic that will help the hobby and people.  I do not understand why they beat this dead horse to death.

Jerry   
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trainz11
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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 08:00:42 AM »

Was informed about this thread, and thought I would offer a response. Would like to say that the article clearly states we are a work in progress, this is stated on page 1. The paint is still being examined and I'm sorry that we do our research out in public. By posting our work in public we feel we are able to operate more as a team, instead of a group of individuals. The team concept seems to work well for us.

As far as beating a dead horse, I agree, I am tired of it too! But I am also tired of so many unanswered questions about the 0-1 paint used on the pace cars. Was the paint enamel or lacquer (speaking of 03C cars)? What color was the white? Can or does the 0 code only indicate a wetsand and buff of the lacquer paint? Until these questions have complete fact based answers, then the horse isn't dead yet.

Quite simply, if it was Ermine white lacquer, then why the 0 code? Looks to me like Secretariat has a couple more laps around the 0 code paint track to me.

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 10:05:58 AM »

O code means special paint instructions, period, it has nothing to do with the color or type of paint,  Got a bunch of 0 coded 67 Camaro tags that were all kinds of colors.

Specifically in regards to the 67 PCs the cars were painted per the FSO documentation that accompanied the cars in the plant. (documented by the instructions on the bottom of a body broadcast sheet of an 03C O-1 Pacecar.)  It told the body shop exactly what color to use on the car, nose stripe and pin stripes, along wth the instructions to cut and polish the paint.  find a copy of the FSO paperwork and all your questions will be answered for you.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2008, 06:37:18 PM »

Mark,
Thanks for the reply. Up to now, I have never seen any (FSO paperwork) for a pace car. Am assuming you don't have a copy either for a pace car. Would you as share any example (FSO fso paperwork)  that is for one of the many other 0 coded 67's that you have mentioned that were a variety of colors?

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 07:44:47 PM »

I don't think anyone has seen FSO paperwork outside of the factory.  Closest I've seen in the ECL sheet for the 2 styling study ZL1's (the black and gold ones) which just says the vehicles will painted in accordance with the GM styling drawing 115707-L (which I don't have).  Obviously this drawing was present in the body shops to reference when the cars came thru. (remember the front end was no where near the car itself when it was painted, and the only tie to the front end and the rest of the car was the broadcast sheet and the fact that the body was locked into the same sequence as the front end sheetmetal on the assembly line.

I would think that a fleet order (like the first batch of 67 PCs) would have a document that was present in the two body shops at Norwood that would identify anything special that had to be done the the cars, like the blue nose and pin stripes otherwise the white car would have received black stripes.  The O on the tag, and on the braodcast sheet (theres really just a dot in the upper and or lower color box on a BBC on a special paint instruction car) was just there as an attention getter that said to check the paperwork for that car.  The O3 PC that I have the body broadcast sheet for specifically says to paint the car per the FSO on the bottom of it.  It probably also identified the part number for the door decals with instructions for them to be placed in the trunk of the car.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2008, 01:47:16 AM »

Mark,

I couldn't think of a better place to post and share something like that broadcast sheet than right here. Would you consider doing that? Or maybe you would feel more comfortable sending it in an email or PM. That would be great, though I would think the other guys here would like to see it also. Is it an original, or a copy of the original? What a great document to possess, greater yet to share.

If you are not at liberty to divulge this information, would you consider releasing the owners name of the car (in a PM or email for privacy) so I could attempt to contact him and discuss the document and his car with him?

I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Quote
The O on the tag, and on the braodcast sheet (theres really just a dot in the upper and or lower color box on a BBC on a special paint instruction car) was just there as an attention getter that said to check the paperwork for that car.  The O3 PC that I have the body broadcast sheet for specifically says to paint the car per the FSO on the bottom of it.  It probably also identified the part number for the door decals with instructions for them to be placed in the trunk of the car.
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Mark
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2008, 05:28:21 AM »

I have the same problem here as I had over at camaropacecarsdotcom.  The BBC isn't mine and I don't have the owners permsiion to post it (don't even know who the owner is) so I can't post it up unless he (she) lets me.  VIN is 205856 if anyone knows who owns it today.

The bottom of the BBC (below the option boxes) says:

ST TOP 1001AA
PT PER F
SO  PACE CAR       REPLICA

means ST standard top, 1001 special paint AA no extra charge
PT PER FSO = Paint per Fleet Sales Order
and that its a pace car.

Just a note about the above, the FSO paperwork would have the info about the decals, not the BBC.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2008, 10:04:22 PM »

Mark,

Would you have the broadcast sheet for any of the 0- coded cars you mention that were painted several different colors? Could you share one here?

Steve
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Mark
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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2008, 10:24:39 PM »

Nope, finding a Norwood BBC is like finding a 4 leaf clover to begin with, finding one for a special paint car would be like finding a 5 leaf clover.  Looked closer at the BBC for the PC and its an 04A car, not a 03C one, FSO is 061A.

Ive got tag info on 177 O- code 67 and 68 Camaros, 73 of those are pace cars, 6 of the 67 year cars are LA cars (no Pacecars or even convertibles in this group), 9 more non pacecars are Norwood built cars.  Californians seem to like orange colored cars in 67, 4 of these 6 were some shade of orange originally, theres another 31 LA built 68's with the 0- codes the rest, 55 are Norwood 68's.  Theres a few of those powder blue (Colorado, or Carolina blue) colored cars, and the rest are all over the spectrum, some are normal colors without Z28 stripes, or odd colored stripes, but the vast majority are unknown what the original color was or if they were stripe delete as they had been refinished.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2008, 12:08:18 PM »


I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Hi Steve, if you look under the members user name you chose to contact you will see three boxes that if you drag your mouse arrow to will pop up profile, email address, and personal message. Its pretty simple.

Pat
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KurtS
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2008, 02:51:57 PM »

O-1 probably simply meant "Ermine White, show paint". The other pacers at the track were C-1, meaning Ermine White (as factory delivered). Obviously, they knew the O-1 paint cars were going to be in public display applications.

I highly doubt they wanted two different color white cars at the track (Ermine vs some other white) nor two different repair procedures (enamel vs lacquer), not to mention the problems of even trying to paint enamel in the plant.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2008, 08:42:08 PM »

it didn't smell like enamel when we sanded it and we painted it wih lacquer and it went on fine.

This is an excellent point Marv brings up. The factory enamels, when aged, have a distinctively different oder when sanded. Wonder what happened to Marv? Sounds like he has an significantly important car. Hope he checks back in.
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trainz11
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2008, 09:22:30 PM »

Thanks Pat!  Guess I was just looking in the wrong spot. Lot of different technology here. I remember some time back that you had mentioned (on the other channel) you also believed the 0- coding for the paint represented special instructions for the paint.  Always sounded very believeable, but left me with a couple of questions.



I am new here, and don't see the link to send you a PM, could you help me out with that? I have an off topic subject to talk about that concerns a known 68,  - coded evening orchid coupe, a fairly low optioned car.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Steve


Hi Steve, if you look under the members user name you chose to contact you will see three boxes that if you drag your mouse arrow to will pop up profile, email address, and personal message. Its pretty simple.

Pat
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trainz11
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 06:26:53 AM »

I would agree that at the current time the Ermine White, cut and buffed, seems to be very likely what the 0- paint on the pace cars was. Though more testing is being conducted to take this out of the "popular opinion" and "best guess" column. 1967 dated Chevrolet, Fisher, or paint supplier docs would be superior, but just don't seem to be there.

The two colors of white being used for 67 pace cars might seem very unlikely, until you examine the 1964 Ford Mustang Indy Pace Car program. Ford Mustangs that were used at the race as pace cars were painted a bright white that matched the Ford pickup trucks. The bright white was the exact same color as the trucks, though Ford re-named the color  "Indy Pace Car white" for the pace cars. Ford also built replica Mustang pace cars in a more cream colored white which was a standard production color known as "Wimbledon white".  Precedent had been set in 1964 to have your true Pace cars match the trucks, and have the replicas a different shade of the same color, white. Did Chevy use 2 colors of white on the pace cars? The document supported truth is not known. That's why the tests continue, to try and take this out of the "best guess" column, and place it firmly in a "test document supported" findings column. Not as good as factory docs, but it might be as good as possible 41+years later.
O-1 probably simply meant "Ermine White, show paint". The other pacers at the track were C-1, meaning Ermine White (as factory delivered). Obviously, they knew the O-1 paint cars were going to be in public display applications.

I highly doubt they wanted two different color white cars at the track (Ermine vs some other white) nor two different repair procedures (enamel vs lacquer), not to mention the problems of even trying to paint enamel in the plant.
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 11:30:58 AM »

Not exactly true according to mustang sources.  there was only 35 or so Pacecars at the track and they were obtained from production cars already at dealerships around the country.  Only the 2 actual pace cars and the winners cars were specially prepared for use at the track. 

In 1964, Ford had the Galaxie poised to pace the Indianapolis 500. That changed when Mustang madness swept the nation. But Ford had a serious problem: not enough Mustangs to meet consumer demand, much less the added demand of a racing event where more than three dozen convertibles were needed.  Indy 500 officials from the period have SAID that those responsible for the pace car program at Ford were scrambling to find suitably equipped Mustang convertibles prior to the race. To pacify Indy officials, Ford shipped 35 '64 Galaxie 500 convertibles in March, which were replaced by Mustang convertibles early in May.

The 35 Wimbledon White Mustang convertibles varied in the way they were optioned because many of them were sourced from Ford dealers within a sizable radius around Indianapolis. Each of these convertibles was D-code 289-4V-equipped. Interiors were red, white, or blue vinyl. Some had Cruise-O-Matics while others had four-speeds. Each had the Indy 500 graphics made for Ford by 3M.

Ford shipped these convertibles to Louisville, Kentucky, shortly after the race and sold them to dealers with the highest bids. Alderman Ford in Indianapolis successfully bid on a dozen or so of the pace car replicas. Needless to say, these cars sold quickly. What makes them hard to track is their status as run-of-the-mill production units. No special DSO codes or paint color.

While they don't yet know enough about the 35 festival convertibles, they do know something about the three actual Holman-Moody-prepared pace car convertibles built to pace the race. One paced the race. The other two were backup cars. The cars were all painted Wimbledon White. On race day only 2 of these cars actually made the parade lap, as the third ran into mechanical difficulties. Their vehicle identification numbers were 5F08F100240, 5F08F100241, and 5F08F100242, indicating all were 260-2V convertibles. All had significant chassis preparation. Each was fitted with a Holman-Moody-prepared 289ci V-8 engine.  Each of these Mustangs was fitted with grab bars and two-way radios. All three were produced as 260-2V convertibles and shipped to Holman-Moody. One of these cars survives today in Florida, owned by Bruce Weiss. The other two haven't been accounted for.

So, how do the approximately 190 Pace Car White Mustang hardtops fit into the pace car picture? For one thing, the pace car hardtop replicas really have little in common with the 38 Wimbledon White drop-tops at Indy. These pace car hardtops were Pace Car White (Color Code "C", 1964 only), had Trim Code 42 (white with blue appointments) interiors, and were equipped with the "F" code 260-2V V-8 with Cruise-O-Matic transmission.  Note that none of these were actually at the Indianapolis 500, they were just replicas built for general use, just like the vast majority of the Z11's.

The hardtops were produced for the Checkered and Green Flag contests, which were dealer incentives designed to both promote the new Mustang and indicate the Mustang's status as the official Indy 500 pace car for 1964. Each sales district arranged its dealers into groups based on sales volume in the preceding 12 months. A sales objective for April 1964 was established for each dealer in each group. Dealers who exceeded their sales objective by the greatest percentage in its group qualified to compete against all other group winners in the district.

Ford had already decided the total number of winners because the pace car replicas were assembled consecutively in mid-April 1964. The total number of winners, by district, was also predetermined since each of the pace car hardtops had a standard two-digit DSO code on the warranty plate. There were five standard-order DSO code pace car Mustangs per sales district for a total of 180 units. Each sales district determined the allocation of winners based on the best percentage of sales. The very best were declared Checker Flag winners. Second Place winners were Green Flag contest winners. Ford was aiming for an even split between the two contests. But it didn't turn out that way.

Since each sales district had considerable flexibility in conducting their contests and determining winners, the number of winners of each contest was inconsistent among the districts. There were many ties between dealers, particularly small-volume dealers. This created logistics issues across the land. Ford had already produced 180 hardtops for the two contests, but they needed more as a result of the ties. Approximately 10 more Pace Car White hardtops had to be produced in early May to meet the need. They say "approximately 10" because it has never been determined with documentation how many were produced. This is based on available documentation that addresses winning dealers.

Because these additional pace car hardtops were ordered internally by Ford, with no idea who the winning dealers would be at the time, they were ordered as DSO 84 (Home Office Reserve) units.

Checkered Flag winners (105 of them) were invited to Dearborn, Michigan, to pick up their free Mustang pace car hardtops in a nice ceremony with then-Ford Division General Manager Lee Iacocca. Dealers had the option of driving their winnings home or having them shipped. Green Flag winners had to stay home and pay for their prize with a $500 discount.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:37:11 AM by Mark » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 11:44:06 AM »

Here they are (the replica's) being given away in Dearborn, MI.

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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2008, 05:37:08 AM »

Any word on testing results of the original paint on the 03C O-1 car(s) yet?  What kind of paint is it?
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« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2008, 05:32:05 AM »

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« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2008, 07:53:58 AM »

Mark,
What's not exactly true? Without burying this in a thousand words of statistical data, in your reply here, you speak of the 2 colors of white that Ford used on their 64 pace car program. So what's not true?
Ford's 64 Pace Car program contained cars painted both colors of white. These were the cars the Ford Motor company considered to be in their Pace Car program. It really doesn't matter what todays experts think happened, why it happened, or how it happened that Ford ended up with coupes and convertibles painted 2 different colors of white, yet all falling into the Ford pace car program. The fact is that is what happened. That's what Ford called their "Pace Car program. It does look like it was poorly planned, but it is what happened. Whether Ford built cars specially intended to be pace cars and festival cars, or had to call cars in from existing inventories to fill the ranks, these were the cars the Ford Motor Company chose to fill their needs at Indy.

Whats not exactly true then? My point was that Ford used 2 different colors of cars they considered to be in their pace car program for 64, and that's what happened. Are you trying to discredit all the 64 Festival Cars as to not having been involved in the race, or not to have been important cars because they were not produced with any special numerical production markings? Your Ford buddies from across the country that you mention probably wouldn't agree with that.

Here is a link to a page that has the information on the bottom of the "Color Information" sheet. Both colors you speak of are listed here.  http://www.tcpglobal.com/aclchip.aspx?image=1964-ford-pg03.jpg

Truth - The 64 Ford Pace Car program had Mustang coupes and convertibles painted 2 different colors of white. Slice it, dice it, or try to discredit it as you may, it is still the truth. 

Not exactly true according to mustang sources.  there was only 35 or so Pacecars at the track and they were obtained from production cars already at dealerships around the country.  Only the 2 actual pace cars and the winners cars were specially prepared for use at the track. 

In 1964, Ford had the Galaxie poised to pace the Indianapolis 500. That changed when Mustang madness swept the nation. But Ford had a serious problem: not enough Mustangs to meet consumer demand, much less the added demand of a racing event where more than three dozen convertibles were needed.  Indy 500 officials from the period have SAID that those responsible for the pace car program at Ford were scrambling to find suitably equipped Mustang convertibles prior to the race. To pacify Indy officials, Ford shipped 35 '64 Galaxie 500 convertibles in March, which were replaced by Mustang convertibles early in May.

The 35 Wimbledon White Mustang convertibles varied in the way they were optioned because many of them were sourced from Ford dealers within a sizable radius around Indianapolis. Each of these convertibles was D-code 289-4V-equipped. Interiors were red, white, or blue vinyl. Some had Cruise-O-Matics while others had four-speeds. Each had the Indy 500 graphics made for Ford by 3M.

Ford shipped these convertibles to Louisville, Kentucky, shortly after the race and sold them to dealers with the highest bids. Alderman Ford in Indianapolis successfully bid on a dozen or so of the pace car replicas. Needless to say, these cars sold quickly. What makes them hard to track is their status as run-of-the-mill production units. No special DSO codes or paint color.

While they don't yet know enough about the 35 festival convertibles, they do know something about the three actual Holman-Moody-prepared pace car convertibles built to pace the race. One paced the race. The other two were backup cars. The cars were all painted Wimbledon White. On race day only 2 of these cars actually made the parade lap, as the third ran into mechanical difficulties. Their vehicle identification numbers were 5F08F100240, 5F08F100241, and 5F08F100242, indicating all were 260-2V convertibles. All had significant chassis preparation. Each was fitted with a Holman-Moody-prepared 289ci V-8 engine.  Each of these Mustangs was fitted with grab bars and two-way radios. All three were produced as 260-2V convertibles and shipped to Holman-Moody. One of these cars survives today in Florida, owned by Bruce Weiss. The other two haven't been accounted for.

So, how do the approximately 190 Pace Car White Mustang hardtops fit into the pace car picture? For one thing, the pace car hardtop replicas really have little in common with the 38 Wimbledon White drop-tops at Indy. These pace car hardtops were Pace Car White (Color Code "C", 1964 only), had Trim Code 42 (white with blue appointments) interiors, and were equipped with the "F" code 260-2V V-8 with Cruise-O-Matic transmission.  Note that none of these were actually at the Indianapolis 500, they were just replicas built for general use, just like the vast majority of the Z11's.

The hardtops were produced for the Checkered and Green Flag contests, which were dealer incentives designed to both promote the new Mustang and indicate the Mustang's status as the official Indy 500 pace car for 1964. Each sales district arranged its dealers into groups based on sales volume in the preceding 12 months. A sales objective for April 1964 was established for each dealer in each group. Dealers who exceeded their sales objective by the greatest percentage in its group qualified to compete against all other group winners in the district.

Ford had already decided the total number of winners because the pace car replicas were assembled consecutively in mid-April 1964. The total number of winners, by district, was also predetermined since each of the pace car hardtops had a standard two-digit DSO code on the warranty plate. There were five standard-order DSO code pace car Mustangs per sales district for a total of 180 units. Each sales district determined the allocation of winners based on the best percentage of sales. The very best were declared Checker Flag winners. Second Place winners were Green Flag contest winners. Ford was aiming for an even split between the two contests. But it didn't turn out that way.

Since each sales district had considerable flexibility in conducting their contests and determining winners, the number of winners of each contest was inconsistent among the districts. There were many ties between dealers, particularly small-volume dealers. This created logistics issues across the land. Ford had already produced 180 hardtops for the two contests, but they needed more as a result of the ties. Approximately 10 more Pace Car White hardtops had to be produced in early May to meet the need. They say "approximately 10" because it has never been determined with documentation how many were produced. This is based on available documentation that addresses winning dealers.

Because these additional pace car hardtops were ordered internally by Ford, with no idea who the winning dealers would be at the time, they were ordered as DSO 84 (Home Office Reserve) units.

Checkered Flag winners (105 of them) were invited to Dearborn, Michigan, to pick up their free Mustang pace car hardtops in a nice ceremony with then-Ford Division General Manager Lee Iacocca. Dealers had the option of driving their winnings home or having them shipped. Green Flag winners had to stay home and pay for their prize with a $500 discount.
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« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2008, 11:13:52 AM »

Din't say anything like that, all i said was the cars at the track were painted a stock color, they weren't painted to match the ford pickup trucks.

I'm quoting you from above:  "The two colors of white being used for 67 pace cars might seem very unlikely, until you examine the 1964 Ford Mustang Indy Pace Car program. Ford Mustangs that were used at the race as pace cars were painted a bright white that matched the Ford pickup trucks. The bright white was the exact same color as the trucks, though Ford re-named the color  "Indy Pace Car white" for the pace cars. Ford also built replica Mustang pace cars in a more cream colored white which was a standard production color known as "Wimbledon white". "

You've got your references backwards the REPLICAS were certainly painted a different color, maybe they match a ford pickup color, don't know, but the cars at the track were Wimbleton white. 

Additionally there are no convertible mustang replicas, they are all coupes, and there are no coupe mustangs in the group of cars sent to the track, they were all convertibles.  The replicas had nothing to do with the actual race events and none were there "officially" from Ford (doesn't mean some dealer local to Indy didn't take one or more over there).  What ford did was sort of like the 0-1/C-1 67 pace car dilema in reverse, where GM sent the standard ermine white color cars to the track and sold the 0-1 cars to the general public.  Ford didn't really have a mustang pace car program in 64, it was a stop gap measure at best.  The Galaxie was supposed to pace the race and at the last minute someone decided to substitute the Mustang as it was fast becoming their best seller.  The 190 pace car COUPES made by ford are no different that the 3600 or so 69 Z11s (or any of the thousands of cars built since then) that never got near the 500 during the month of may 1969, they were an advertising tool for their parent marquee.

All I'm trying to do is keep people from rewriting history, and quite frankly I don't give a hoot about the 64 Mustang pace car program, I'm just still trying to have someone tell me about enamel painted cars coming out of a factory setup to spray lacquer.  So far I'm not impressed with the info coming forth.
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« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2008, 01:19:11 PM »

The pace cars and festival cars at the track were Wimbledon white. Whatever name you attach to the cars, they were the pace cars and festival cars. Wimbledon white was also a Ford truck color, and extremely popular on trucks in 64. The coupes (replicas?) were another shade of white. This was also a truck color which was renamed Indy Pace Car white for the Indy Car "non" program. My only point here was there were 2 colors of white in 1964 used by Ford in there pace car "non" program. The "Indy Style" Mustangs came in 2 colors.

You have me confused somewhat by your statement from above, quote  "What ford did was sort of like the 0-1/C-1 67 pace car dilema in reverse, where GM sent the standard ermine white color cars to the track and sold the 0-1 cars to the general public." Actually, weren't all the cars in the 67 Festival program all 0-1 cars? And the C-1 cars were the cars sold to the general public?

I do agree with you that enough has been said about the 64 Mustang IPC's and this needs to get back on to the 0-1 topic. You ask about results from the lab tests. Nothing is back yet. As soon as they are, they will be released. Sorry your not impressed by the test results. The goal is not to impress anyone, but just leave no stone unturned in seeking the truth in what really happened.

Has anyone heard from the member who started this thread, Marv who was asking about his 0-1 pace car?


You've got your references backwards the REPLICAS were certainly painted a different color, maybe they match a ford pickup color, don't know, but the cars at the track were Wimbleton white.

Additionally there are no convertible mustang replicas, they are all coupes, and there are no coupe mustangs in the group of cars sent to the track, they were all convertibles.  The replicas had nothing to do with the actual race events and none were there "officially" from Ford (doesn't mean some dealer local to Indy didn't take one or more over there).  What ford did was sort of like the 0-1/C-1 67 pace car dilema in reverse, where GM sent the standard ermine white color cars to the track and sold the 0-1 cars to the general public.  Ford didn't really have a mustang pace car program in 64, it was a stop gap measure at best.  The Galaxie was supposed to pace the race and at the last minute someone decided to substitute the Mustang as it was fast becoming their best seller.  The 190 pace car COUPES made by ford are no different that the 3600 or so 69 Z11s (or any of the thousands of cars built since then) that never got near the 500 during the month of may 1969, they were an advertising tool for their parent marquee.

All I'm trying to do is keep people from rewriting history, and quite frankly I don't give a hoot about the 64 Mustang pace car program, I'm just still trying to have someone tell me about enamel painted cars coming out of a factory setup to spray lacquer.  So far I'm not impressed with the info coming forth.
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« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2008, 01:32:27 PM »

I just meant that in the case of the mustangs, Ford sent the standard color wimbleton white cars to the track, and then later came up with the brighter white (pacecar white) cars that were sold to the public.  GM did the reverse, the show paint cars (brighter white, polished ermine white, laquer/enamel? ones) went to the track and the regular ermine white C-1 paint cars went to the public.

Wimbleton white was a truck color as well.  It is a creamy white color.  The pacecar white was originally known as pure white on the 64 truck line.  Totally different appearance, from whimbleton white, as its a much brighter white, very close to Chevys Ermine white, probably more white than the 69 Dover white (which has a tiny bit of a cream tone to it) as well.

Whats the schedule to start testing, or get the results of the testing back?  How many cars (parts of different cars?) are in the test program?
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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2008, 09:10:12 AM »

sorry i'm not on the computer much.
no evidence ofa sticker on the mirror.
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« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2008, 08:36:26 PM »

Any new enamel paint discoverys yet?
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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2009, 11:39:26 PM »

Wonder how the testing going?
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2009, 08:56:12 PM »

Been about a year since Musclecar Review printed the 53 03C cars were painted in enamel.  Testing was supposed to have been setup with PPG on some original panels, yet nothing new has come up.  Anyone know how the tseting is going, or went?
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2009, 09:57:58 PM »

With the complete lack of any corroborating evidence for the enamel theory and lots of evidence that points towards the standard lacquer, I think this is a non-issue. The paint was lacquer.
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 12:20:20 PM »

Going to bump this back to the top one more time.  Its coming up on almost 2 years now since the 03C cars original paint was supposed to be tested to determine if it was enamel or laquer, and there has been nothing mentioned on any site that it was completed and verified, or not.  Other than the thread on cpc.com that got me banned (and the Musclecar review article) there isn't even a mention of it anywhere else on cpc.com.  Whats the story, anyone know?
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2010, 01:37:36 PM »

Whats the story, anyone know?

I would appear that either the "testing" didn't happen, or the results don't support the enamel theory and they'd just as soon not discuss it further. There were NO Camaros painted with enamel at the factory. Ever. Period.
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2010, 02:14:06 PM »

I know that (or at least beleive that), but i got tossed from their site for questioning that "the emperor had no clothes" so to speak as it relates to this theory, and I'm going to keep bringing this topic back up occasionally, until someone can confirm the use of enamel, or admit the cars were painted just like every other Ermine White Camaro on the line, albeit with a lot more polishing and buffing.
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2010, 06:40:04 PM »

Time to bring this back to the top again.  Been just about 2 years now since the paint on the 03C cars were suppossed to be tested to determine if it was enamel or lacquer and there hasn't been a peep from anyone involved.  I guess its time to call the info given to musclecar review wrong, wonder what else in that article was based on inadequate information.

Does Tony Huntimer have any association with MCR?
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