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Author Topic: Zeroing in on X code start up  (Read 1905 times)
ko-lek-tor
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« on: May 28, 2014, 09:49:02 PM »

A couple of weeks ago, a topic regarding rear end dates was posted. This resulted in a few PM's by JKZ27 & myself discussing when the changeover to X codes occurred. We both have 12B Nor. cars. After observing several 12B tags with vins and doing my own research over some time now, I'll add, I will or can almost with certainty determine that the X codes started with the Vin # 560000 or very close. Certainly more data will narrow this down and confirm or at least conclude and then be held as fact, which is what WE are all about. My following examples to bear this out are: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-1969-Camaro-SS-350-Muncie-4-speed-AC-disc-brakes-numbers-matching-V8-hotrod-/301197332895?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4620c2919f&item=301197332895&pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_102wt_1312  This car is 532 Vins before the 560000 and has no X code and http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3257.15 a post about an X55 which is 1026 after this 560000 vin. Now, I know that is over 1500 cars between these examples and as more is found I will keep records. I have never seen an example of any X code with a vin starting with 55xxxx to date.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1688.0 This is another, 573 after 56xxxx with X code...Now within a 1000 vins 500 on each side of 56xxxx.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
262jp
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 09:57:42 PM »

My Vin 562xxx has the x code.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 10:28:55 PM »

A couple of weeks ago, a topic regarding rear end dates was posted. This resulted in a few PM's by JKZ27 & myself discussing when the changeover to X codes occurred. We both have 12B Nor. cars. After observing several 12B tags with vins and doing my own research over some time now, I'll add, I will or can almost with certainty determine that the X codes started with the Vin # 560000 or very close. Certainly more data will narrow this down and confirm or at least conclude and then be held as fact, which is what WE are all about. My following examples to bear this out are: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-1969-Camaro-SS-350-Muncie-4-speed-AC-disc-brakes-numbers-matching-V8-hotrod-/301197332895?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4620c2919f&item=301197332895&pt=US_Cars_Trucks#ht_102wt_1312  This car is 532 Vins before the 560000 and has no X code and http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3257.15 a post about an X55 which is 1026 after this 560000 vin. Now, I know that is over 1500 cars between these examples and as more is found I will keep records. I have never seen an example of any X code with a vin starting with 55xxxx to date.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1688.0 This is another, 573 after 56xxxx with X code...Now within a 1000 vins 500 on each side of 56xxxx.
Based on Kurts' info above, and knowing that during December of 1968, Norwood averaged 863 camaros per day over the 21 work days of that month, we might conclude VIN N560000 was likely built on the 10th workday of December or 13 Dec 1968 (a Friday)... So perhaps the first day new Camaros had X codes on the trim tag was Monday the 16th of December.   How does this compare to previous estimates?
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 10:47:21 PM »

KurtS tells me he has seen a vin before 560000 with X code, so, back to the drawing board. You bring up a great point Gary. And that is when would this be implemented. Beggining of week? Shift? or by Vin? Shift and/or week would make more sense, I agree. I thought JohnZ said 920 cars per day. Will have to check these facts.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
z28z11
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 10:58:30 PM »

12A N553XXX no "X" code.

No dealer info either, darn it -

Regards
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 11:05:25 PM »

My Vin 562xxx has the x code.
12A N553XXX no "X" code.

No dealer info either, darn it -

Regards

interesting,but I think you are missing the point. If it is before my example 559498, it will NOT have an X code (like yours) and if it is after 560573, it WILL,(like yours). It is the period in between I am focusing on 559498-560573
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
z28z11
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 11:15:13 PM »

Didn't miss the point - just to reinforce it wasn't the first week as we know. Not sure how deep in 12A 553 is, but I really wish it was after 560 and in the 2nd week where it would have one. Agonized over this for a good while (not being able to determine if it was an X22 or X66).

Regards
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Bryan302
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 12:26:05 AM »

Hi z28z11,

Just trying to learn more myself!  Would a pre X code car, such as yours, not be determined whether it was a pre X22 or X66 by being style trim group or not?  My example, An X77 did not have style trim, an X33 did.  Just because a car was earlier than the X code, did that mean the trim application was different?  It looks like to me, that if your car has style trim, it would be an early X22.  Just asking.

Thanks,
Bryan
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Bryan S.
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elcamino72
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 06:26:54 AM »

Since the X-codes were on the Fisher Body side of the plant and before the car got a VIN wouldn't it perhaps be more proper to analyze Fisher Body Numbers and cowl tag dates as opposed to VINs which were assigned on the Chevrolet side?
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 07:46:06 AM »

Since the X-codes were on the Fisher Body side of the plant and before the car got a VIN wouldn't it perhaps be more proper to analyze Fisher Body Numbers and cowl tag dates as opposed to VINs which were assigned on the Chevrolet side?

If I'm recalling correctly, JohnZ has told us the cowl tag information was generated when the body weldup began.  I think it's safe to assume that these were done *roughly at least* in the order, or in the sequence, the production was to happen.  Once the body build began, I believe it was only a few days before that particular car was completed (Hopefully JohnZ will pipe in and clarify this as I can't recall the exact scheduling even though I think I've read it before that he posted).

VINs are assigned (by Chevrolet) in the sequence as they came off the line; BDY NBRs are not in sequence with production, but are assigned in sequence with orders.  Cowl tag dates are incremented by the week and in a week between 4000-5000 Camaros would be built, thus the sequential VIN investigation makes more sense (to me), assuming that once they began X codes, they continued it unabated.
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
Jon Mello
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2014, 08:30:16 AM »

If I'm recalling correctly, JohnZ has told us the cowl tag information was generated when the body weldup began.

I have seen examples where GM records show a build date in the week prior to what is indicated on the cowl tag, so that is not true 100% of the time.
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Jon Mello
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Mark
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2014, 09:46:16 AM »

Norwood 69 cowl tags were printed up well before the body construction actually started (seen estimates of 2 days to a week).  The body numbers are order numbers and are no where near consecutive, you may have had a car ordered and accepted by GM in the middle of November, but not scheduled to be built by the factory for a month or more because of some weird combination of options, or colors so body numbers don't help on the 69's.  The cowl tags were scheduled for a certain build week and then sorted and organized within any specific days schedule by Fisher based on their build constraints like no convertibles closer than 10 bodies to another convertible, no vinyl topped cars closer together than 7 bodies, while trying to group paint colors together (but that doesn't seem to be a major factor in scheduling but it is one they had to look at).  At that point the build order became fixed (probably the day before the build started) and the bodies were built in that sequence.  some cars scheduled for a build in a certain week (and had a cowl tag stamped) got pushed back a week or pulled forward.  that doesn't seem to happen very often but it did occur.  The only universal constant is that each car arriving at the GM side of the plant got 1VIN number higher than the one that came thru before it.  somewhere along the process someone started adding the X code to a group of tags, and it was in the works for at least a month before the actual codes arrived, because Norwood shifted to the large format tags needed to support the code on the tag in Mid November.  It could have started on a Monday morning, or a Tuesday afternoon, or any other time.  The shuffling of cowl tags around to meet various build constraints will make it hard to find the exact first car to carry an X code.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2014, 02:59:17 PM »

There is an 11A car with a large tag it is an unrestored HO Z28.
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James
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2014, 06:43:48 PM »

Here is a little timeline for a special ordered Camaro that ended up with a 12B on the trim tag. VIN 5583XX   No X code.

I believe the car was ordered somewhere around Friday November 08, 1968 because that is the Date on the lien. Also, I'm pretty sure the purchaser just got home from the Navy on the 6th.

The date on the MSO (Manufacturer Certificate of Origin) is Thursday December 12, 1968. This the date that ownership of the car was transferred from Norwood(GM) to the dealer. I have to assume that this date is very close to, if not the same as, the shipping date that would appear on the NCRS document....waiting to hear from other members since this car's info is currently not available.

I believe this is an early 12B car because I have seen a 12A tag on a VIN 558080. That's around 250 cars.
It may be safe to say my car began production early Monday December 09, 1968, spent the next four days on the line, rolled out the back door Thursday afternoon.

The Application for Title is dated Wednesday December 18, 1968. I believe this the day the owner took delivery.

The original title is dated Friday December 20, 1968.


John
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Hot302
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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2014, 01:40:15 PM »

There is an 11A car with a large tag it is an unrestored HO Z28.

I have been seeing this alot lately. What is the "HO" stand for?
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Rick
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