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Author Topic: trim ring fit to rim  (Read 4958 times)
paceme
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2014, 11:56:37 AM »

Mark, there is a difference in the clip configuration and change over between 14 inch and 15 inch trim rings. That thread was referencing 14 inch yj trim rings. Just an FYI...
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Steve Shauger
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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2014, 07:16:42 PM »

Interesting to note my GM Camaro parts book dated Aug/74 shows only 1 trim ring for 1969 Z28 - # 3901708. Then a later issue GM Camaro parts Book dated Sept/75 shows - # 9796696. No trim ring attaching style notes are included in either parts book description.

My GM Chevelle Parts Book dated Apr/76 shows the  # 3901708 trim ring as - 2&1/2" wide -Attaches with 4 clips, fitting 74-76. It then also shows # 9796696 as a supplemented part number for this ring.

Then it shows # 9796696 fitting 70-73 Monte Carlo and it says - Approx 2&1/2" Wide - Attaches with 4 Clips.

I do know that later issue # 9796696 trim rings had the serrated teeth or fingers and were still available from GM I think until approx. 2007? There is also 2 versions of this ring, early issue had Black Serrations and the later issue had Silver Serrations. I have a NOS set of the # 9796696 and the boxes are dated Mar/2000 and they have the silver serrations.

My personal opinion is that the # 3901708 - 4 clip style trim rings were the original line installed trim ring on the Z28, and the later issue # 9796696 trim ring with the serrations was a mid 70,s service trim ring, and was also used by the dealer to replace existing 4 clip trim rings after that part number # 3901708 was superceded to # 9796696.

Jerrys Book only mentions that 2 styles of trim rings were used.  No Offence meant but I honestly don't see how  a legends judge could comment with certainty that in or around Feb 1969 they went to the fingers all the way around the ring to stop the 4 clip design falling off, when the Early dated 1974 GM Camaro and Chevelle parts Book do not show the Serrated type trim ring.
Of the few original Z/28's I've looked at they all had 4 clip trim rings. Maybe some had the other type but it sure seems there were 4 clips abundant. Additionally, I have 4 NOS 15X6 68 trim rings purchased in 1979 that have the 4 clips.
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
sbmiano
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« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 12:28:54 PM »

Who knows?  we can go on and on...  Mike will be leaving his 4 clip on and I will have the finger type so we will see how it plays out.  Maybe both will be acceptable.  The ones that WERE on my car at the nationals were repo 4 clips. So we will see.
 
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69 z28  Van Nuys 04D Legends Certified
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 12:54:13 PM »

Who knows?  we can go on and on...  Mike will be leaving his 4 clip on and I will have the finger type so we will see how it plays out.  Maybe both will be acceptable.  The ones that WERE on my car at the nationals were repo 4 clips. So we will see.

Scott...  if yours were 'repo 4-clip', then I'm suspecting that is why you lost the points, as I do not believe the 'correct' 4-clip trims have ever been reproduced.   The reproduced 4-clip I've seen have totally different clip styles, and are nowhere near to the correct 4-clips.   The original 4-clip style has 4 clips at the outer edge of the trim (see photos), which clips to the outer lip of the wheel; whereas the repos I've seen have a totally different sort of retainer (there are also 4 of them) but which work by 'friction' about halfway back from the edge of the trim.   If I'm not up to date on this, someone please correct me...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 01:33:07 PM by 69Z28-RS » Logged

Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2014, 02:30:37 PM »

I know after three pages of posting here that this issue does need to be addressed.  What data I can add to the table is any original car that I've inspected over the past 20 years or so have had the four clips on the trim rings.  I think was has happened is when GM began making the service replacements, these were "finger style" trim rings and many owners of cars have just assumed these later style rings were original and or acceptable.  I have even stated that both are acceptable in my Camaro fact book due to the data I had at the time.  Many originals may have been replaced due to curb scrapes and such.

So, all that said, we will address this issue this year and work on getting that concours judging manual done.  That will aid everyone who comes into the hobby.

Jerry
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2014, 02:52:23 PM »

Great, the judging manual would be a great tool. When it becomes available where would we go to purchase one?
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
Dusk Blue Z
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2014, 04:28:40 PM »

Thanks for your input Jerry. I am looking forward to the Legends Judging this year.

Mike
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2014, 07:12:45 PM »

I will have to check on costs.  I have an appointment with my printer as I'm going to be working on a new 5th edition of the '69 Camaro book so I will check on cost, quantity and approx. page count for a judging manual.

Stay tuned,

Jerry 
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paceme
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« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2014, 08:32:09 PM »

Determining if trim rings were original to a car is difficult as many fell off damaged or discarded. My belief is that the serrated internal type were used on late production cars ( 69 carry over-70 production) . I've certified two absolutely unrestored Oct built Z28's (both achieved Legend Certification) that had the internal serrated /fingers type trim rings. I specifically looked for the four clip markings on the lips and did not find any. I suspect that the internal serrated/ finger attached trim ring were phased in during the 1970 model production (Camaros built Sept-Nov of 69). Another example for instance were 69 SS Chevelles which used the 4 clip trim rings exclusively, but from what I've seen all 70 Chevelles have had the serrated /finger trim rings. I confirmed this with Chris White who is a Vintage Certification team member, and a well known Chevelle authority.

Last I've attached a picture of my 9A built Z spare(I orig purchased in 1976). The original rim is dated 5/19 along with orig sports car 200, and original factory applied paint. You will note that the spare was used for a very short time and a trim ring was installed which based on the markings was the internal serrated type. I looked for clip markings on the outer lip and none were found. However Gary's car (69Z28-RS with the ugly orange interior Smiley ) built the same week 9A, has the four clip. I will contact the owners of the Oct built Z's and see if they can provide pics. Hope this helps.....

Steve
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Steve Shauger
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rszmjt
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« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2014, 09:56:18 PM »

FWIW, To really confuse this issue, I have also seen 3 versions of the # 3901708 trim ring with the 4 clips. The clips are the same but the internal ring that retains the clips into the crimped over outer have 3 different styles, 1 is like what Gary posted which is just a flat ring and 2 others that have a inner ring with a raised up portion towards the inside, 1 is much higher than the other as can be seen in the picture i posted. The upper 1 is NOS in a old old GM Box.
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BULLITT65
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« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2014, 09:56:57 PM »

"I looked for clip markings on the outer lip and none were found. However Gary's car (69Z28-RS with the ugly orange interior Smiley ) built the same week 9A, has the four clip. I will contact the owners of the Oct built Z's and see if they can provide pics. Hope this helps....."

Steve

Steve your killin me with the orange comments......I laughed hard when I saw that..... Cheesy Grin Cheesy

I have the original spare from my 08C from my car and the only marks on it are from the 4 clip style, no finger marks on it at all. ( it was rotated with the other tires early on and then stayed in the trunk with the original tire worn but still mounted. (sorry my picture reduction quality skills aren't as good as yours)
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
BULLITT65
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« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2014, 09:59:14 PM »

RSZmjt, I am guessing just different suppliers back then, so probably does not confuse things.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
69Z28-RS
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« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2014, 10:31:35 PM »

Following up rszmjt posting from a few days ago:   I meant to check my P&A and post this sooner, but I'm doing it now.   I have a full Chevrolet Parts and Accessories Catalog, P&A 30A, effective date Oct 1, 1970.   It took me awhile to find the wheels/wheelcover (in section 5, for Brakes - Rear Axle, and Drive.   Page 5-49 addresses the relevant trim rings for which I've scanned and included below in Photo 1.  Note that this P&A was effective right at the beginning of the '71 model year, and end of the 1970 model year. and was less than a year from the end of '69 Camaro production.
Notice the appropriate PN at this point in time was the 9796696 which was for the 15x7 JK rallye wheel and was 2-3/8" wide.   The 9796698 wheel trim was the 'serrated' or 'finger' style.   This can be confirmed from the following ebay links where there are 4 of them for sale currently (NOS) in the boxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/nos-15-inch-chevy-trim-rings-/221361583949?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338a2db74d&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-69-Z28-GM-NOS-Trim-Rings-15-x-7-9796696-/121237108689?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3a4b77d1&vxp=mtr

These are the same PN and have the finger style retention.

J.McNeish said every original Z28 he's viewed in the last 20 yrs or so had the 4-clip style.  I can say that every original Z28 I've viewed since they were new had the 4-clip style.  These 4-clip styles became unavailable (new from Chevy) shortly after the introduction of the '70 Monte Carlo.   If someone with a '69 Z28 wanted to replace their dented and scratched trims with new, they got the new style (with fingers).
Note:  I was a young airman in the USAF during the '68-72 period, and hung with a bunch of other young airmen who were hotrodders and street racers.  Several owned '68 and '69 and '70 Z28 and (a few owned Bosses, Hemi Challengers, etc).  We all spent every penny of our paychecks (a bit over $100/mo) on CARS..  Smiley   Factory rallyes and road wheels were the 'style' then, as not many could afford 'mag' wheels (that was the term then for aftermarket magnesium or aluminum wheels).. Smiley

My belief is that the factory designed trim ring for the '69 Z28 during production was the '4-clip' original style.   I also believe that the 'finger style' was designed for the 1970 model year (typical introduction during late Aug/early Sept) of '69.   As with lots of other parts used on 'late '69 Camaros, I think it is very possible that as the 4-clip style was exhausted, Norwood easily began using the 'same look' finger style as designed/mfg'ed for 1970.   It's also possible that there was a 3-4 month period (Fall '69) when both styles were in use in Norwood Camaro production.

Does anyone in the group have a P&A catalog dated within the '69 Camaro production period?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:27:33 PM by 69Z28-RS » Logged

Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
rszmjt
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« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2014, 01:39:07 AM »

Following up rszmjt posting from a few days ago:   I meant to check my P&A and post this sooner, but I'm doing it now.   I have a full Chevrolet Parts and Accessories Catalog, P&A 30A, effective date Oct 1, 1970.   It took me awhile to find the wheels/wheelcover (in section 5, for Brakes - Rear Axle, and Drive.   Page 5-49 addresses the relevant trim rings for which I've scanned and included below in Photo 1.  Note that this P&A was effective right at the beginning of the '71 model year, and end of the 1970 model year. and was less than a year from the end of '69 Camaro production.
Notice the appropriate PN at this point in time was the 9796696 which was for the 15x7 JK rallye wheel and was 2-3/8" wide.   The 9796698 wheel trim was the 'serrated' or 'finger' style.   This can be confirmed from the following ebay links where there are 4 of them for sale currently (NOS) in the boxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/nos-15-inch-chevy-trim-rings-/221361583949?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338a2db74d&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-69-Z28-GM-NOS-Trim-Rings-15-x-7-9796696-/121237108689?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3a4b77d1&vxp=mtr

These are the same PN and have the finger style retention.

J.McNeish said every original Z28 he's viewed in the last 20 yrs or so had the 4-clip style.  I can say that every original Z28 I've viewed since they were new had the 4-clip style.  These 4-clip styles became unavailable (new from Chevy) shortly after the introduction of the '70 Monte Carlo.   If someone with a '69 Z28 wanted to replace their dented and scratched trims with new, they got the new style (with fingers).
Note:  I was a young airman in the USAF during the '68-72 period, and hung with a bunch of other young airmen who were hotrodders and street racers.  Several owned '68 and '69 and '70 Z28 and (a few owned Bosses, Hemi Challengers, etc).  We all spent every penny of our paychecks (a bit over $100/mo) on CARS..  Smiley   Factory rallyes and road wheels were the 'style' then, as not many could afford 'mag' wheels (that was the term then for aftermarket magnesium or aluminum wheels).. Smiley

My belief is that the factory designed trim ring for the '69 Z28 during production was the '4-clip' original style.   I also believe that the 'finger style' was designed for the 1970 model year (typical introduction during late Aug/early Sept) of '69.   As with lots of other parts used on 'late '69 Camaros, I think it is very possible that as the 4-clip style was exhausted, Norwood easily began using the 'same look' finger style as designed/mfg'ed for 1970.   It's also possible that there was a 3-4 month period (Fall '69) when both styles were in use in Norwood Camaro production.

Does anyone in the group have a P&A catalog dated within the '69 Camaro production period?


Gary, I dont think the 4 clip trim ring was discontinued until approx 1974 and the finger style was introduced in 1975 as my 1974 dated GM parts book lists the # 3901708 trim ring and the 1975 lists # 9796696.  When I purchased my car in 1974 I bought 4 New trim rings for it from GM and got the 4 clip style, they have been on the car ever since.

The # 9796696 trim rings in both the Ebay auctions (as well as the 4 NOS # 9796696 I have,) have squared off elongated Valve stem holes and the 4 clip style have a different oval type valve stem hole. I have a GM dealer Ordering Manual from 1969 which has all the option codes as well as fabric swatches and paint chips and it is hard to make out the valve stem holes in the Z28 section, but they dont look like the squared off style. I also looked at 2 road tests in Hot Rod and another publication from 1969 and could not make them out.

Does any one have any pictures from a 1969 Road test or dealer brochure or Day 1 pictures that shows the stem holes in the rings?


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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2014, 08:49:40 AM »

Following up rszmjt posting from a few days ago:   I meant to check my P&A and post this sooner, but I'm doing it now.   I have a full Chevrolet Parts and Accessories Catalog, P&A 30A, effective date Oct 1, 1970.   It took me awhile to find the wheels/wheelcover (in section 5, for Brakes - Rear Axle, and Drive.   Page 5-49 addresses the relevant trim rings for which I've scanned and included below in Photo 1.  Note that this P&A was effective right at the beginning of the '71 model year, and end of the 1970 model year. and was less than a year from the end of '69 Camaro production.
Notice the appropriate PN at this point in time was the 9796696 which was for the 15x7 JK rallye wheel and was 2-3/8" wide.   The 9796698 wheel trim was the 'serrated' or 'finger' style.   This can be confirmed from the following ebay links where there are 4 of them for sale currently (NOS) in the boxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/nos-15-inch-chevy-trim-rings-/221361583949?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338a2db74d&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-69-Z28-GM-NOS-Trim-Rings-15-x-7-9796696-/121237108689?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3a4b77d1&vxp=mtr

These are the same PN and have the finger style retention.

J.McNeish said every original Z28 he's viewed in the last 20 yrs or so had the 4-clip style.  I can say that every original Z28 I've viewed since they were new had the 4-clip style.  These 4-clip styles became unavailable (new from Chevy) shortly after the introduction of the '70 Monte Carlo.   If someone with a '69 Z28 wanted to replace their dented and scratched trims with new, they got the new style (with fingers).
Note:  I was a young airman in the USAF during the '68-72 period, and hung with a bunch of other young airmen who were hotrodders and street racers.  Several owned '68 and '69 and '70 Z28 and (a few owned Bosses, Hemi Challengers, etc).  We all spent every penny of our paychecks (a bit over $100/mo) on CARS..  Smiley   Factory rallyes and road wheels were the 'style' then, as not many could afford 'mag' wheels (that was the term then for aftermarket magnesium or aluminum wheels).. Smiley

My belief is that the factory designed trim ring for the '69 Z28 during production was the '4-clip' original style.   I also believe that the 'finger style' was designed for the 1970 model year (typical introduction during late Aug/early Sept) of '69.   As with lots of other parts used on 'late '69 Camaros, I think it is very possible that as the 4-clip style was exhausted, Norwood easily began using the 'same look' finger style as designed/mfg'ed for 1970.   It's also possible that there was a 3-4 month period (Fall '69) when both styles were in use in Norwood Camaro production.

Does anyone in the group have a P&A catalog dated within the '69 Camaro production period?


Gary, I dont think the 4 clip trim ring was discontinued until approx 1974 and the finger style was introduced in 1975 as my 1974 dated GM parts book lists the # 3901708 trim ring and the 1975 lists # 9796696.  When I purchased my car in 1974 I bought 4 New trim rings for it from GM and got the 4 clip style, they have been on the car ever since.

The # 9796696 trim rings in both the Ebay auctions (as well as the 4 NOS # 9796696 I have,) have squared off elongated Valve stem holes and the 4 clip style have a different oval type valve stem hole. I have a GM dealer Ordering Manual from 1969 which has all the option codes as well as fabric swatches and paint chips and it is hard to make out the valve stem holes in the Z28 section, but they dont look like the squared off style. I also looked at 2 road tests in Hot Rod and another publication from 1969 and could not make them out.
Does any one have any pictures from a 1969 Road test or dealer brochure or Day 1 pictures that shows the stem holes in the rings?

The Oct'70 full P&A I was referencing does not show the # 3901708 part at all, although it lists a 3901704 for a 15x6 DJ wheel, but that one is shown as only 1-3/4" wide.   Can you provide that scanned page from your '74 parts book?

I probably have some '69/70 car magazines that cover the '69 Z28, but I'd have to go back and spend a few hours to find them.. as I have thousands going back to about '66 or so (some grouped by name and year, and others not)..  Would anyone like to come to Alabama to pick up these magazines?  Smiley
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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