CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: BULLITT65 on April 18, 2016, 02:58:12 PM
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VIN: 124379L511422
How can a car with a warranty book and POP showing it was sold in Phoenix AZ have a NCRS report that it was shipped to a dealer in Utah?
Dealer trade?
Paul
Yup, possible. From Utah to Arizona has me question it though. That's a hike. Anyone know of other new cars traded among dealers with that kind of distance?
According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
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According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
Possible but not likely in my opinion. How far apart are the dealerships?
More likely that the NCRS is wrong.
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seemed like a couple of hours apart (maybe 3)from what remember when I googled it. They did get my production date right (Gary was only off by 1 day on his calculation). I was thinking since it was ordered by purchaser, to speed up the delivery they may have pulled a similar ordered car from the Ohio dealer to deliver that quick. Just guessing here
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Oh it is possible. Just seems if that was the case they could have found one closer than that.
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VIN: 124379L511422
How can a car with a warranty book and POP showing it was sold in Phoenix AZ have a NCRS report that it was shipped to a dealer in Utah?
Dealer trade?
Paul
Yup, possible. From Utah to Arizona has me question it though. That's a hike. Anyone know of other new cars traded among dealers with that kind of distance?
According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
That's interesting Austin. I've seen a handful of oddities like this with fords, probably because the Marty information is so readily available for everything so there is more of it floating around. I haven't heard of this much on GM stuff, likely because of the lack of paperwork so it's neat to hear about it, and the distance thing peaked my interest.
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According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
Possible but not likely in my opinion. How far apart are the dealerships?
More likely that the NCRS is wrong.
Has there been a documented case of NCRS providing wrong information from the shipping reports?
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According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
Possible but not likely in my opinion. How far apart are the dealerships?
More likely that the NCRS is wrong.
Has there been a documented case of NCRS providing wrong information from the shipping reports?
Yes, the first report on mine listed the dealer ship 'zone' wrong; it happens that I knew what the zone was supposed to be, so I asked them to check, and it turned out the microfiche card was 'damaged in that area' and they read '31' as '21'... I got a corrected report later...
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my report showed a different dealer, which was close to the selling dealer. I asked if there was a way to check and from what I understood, they couldnt tell what the actual dealers number was.
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Ok Gary and Bill who do you ask about this?
(Maybe there is a issue with the micro fiche or something like a hard to read number with mine)
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When Roy Sinor was responsible for this in NCRS, he was very helpful... He actually left that job before I received my corrected report, and I think a lady (and I can't recall her name without going back and trying to find the email from her) took over for Roy, and finally she provided my corrected report. You should ask whomever provided your report (if you received what you believe to be an incorrect report). I had to provide some information on the changes in 'zone' and the dealer code for my car to help them figure out the damaged card.
Austin, What did you expect yours to state, and how did it actually differ?? (I don't recall ever seeing results of your report?)..
PS. Depending on what one is looking for, I've had dealers look far and wide for a car for me when I had unusual requirements (not unusual for me).. :)
Gary
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Austin, I was just thinking that if it was a dealer trade they should have been able to find one in or around Detroit, much closer than going down into Ohio to find one in 1969.
But honestly you have so much paperwork from your car from the selling dealer, nothing else would matter if it was my car.
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I understand, but I did pay $50 to get the correct NCRS so if it was a dealer swap, thats fine. But if there is a possible error on the NCRS report I would like to make sure. What kind of paperwork would be required for a dealer swap? Or did it just take a phone call from dealer to the other?
Than what would the window sticker say?
( I never got a window sticker with the car, I wonder if this played into it, since the Original owner was a stickler for keeping everything else)
Gary I think it was Marylyn that signed the bottom of mine. I will see if I can email her. thanks
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How much time elapsed between the time the car was shipped and the date it was sold?
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I am going to contact Marilyn and see if there may be an error in Zone. I do not have the NCRS report in front of me.
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I don't know Austin, it might not be that unusual, we just don't here about it with GM cars much because there isn't all that much documentation floating around.
I looked at the paper work on my SCJ again just to see what the date spread was. Wasn't Oklahoma by the way it was Kansas, (memory lapse on my part) lol. It was delivered March 4th to a dealer in Dodge City Kansas, On March 27th I have paperwork showing it was sold to a dealer in Scott City, Kansas, and then sold to the first owner on April 7th. I googled the distance between dealers and it's 88 miles.
If this happened with Fords, and many documents supporting it, then I'm sure it happened with Chevrolets. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Sometimes it's something as simple as the color that sends people or dealers off on a search like that. Shucks I had to go all the way to Texas to get the duramax I wanted, lol.
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Dealer trades are common today. Not sure how common they were back in 69, especially for distances over an hour away.
In Kansas, with lower population - I could understand having to "reach out" some distance to get what you wanted.
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I think it would be good to know the timeline from shipping to dealer, to possible dealer trade, to final sale.
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Dealer trades are common today. Not sure how common they were back in 69, especially for distances over an hour away.
In Kansas, with lower population - I could understand having to "reach out" some distance to get what you wanted.
I was shopping for my first new car in 1969 and several dealers when presented with my desired options/colors/etc.. told me they would check, but was doubtful of finding my list/colors on a lot... so ordering is the alternative if you prefer to wait and have time but have a required list of options. Look for one to trade for? or Order? customer option even then.
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well if you walked into the dealership in 69, wearing your orange sherbet pin striped suit, and asking for a hugger orange car I can see why ....lol ;D
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:) you're funny.... except that in 1969, I couldn't afford a suit of any kind.. except for the ones the USAF issued me.. :)
PS> I had to borrow the money from my credit union to make the down payment.. :) and between the payment ($93/mo) on the car I bought in late '69 and the insurance ($50/mo), that exhausted my military pay at the time... (I had an off duty job that made more.. so that paid for the $0.50/gallon fuel and dates.. :)
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According to the NCRS my car was sold to a dealer in Ohio, But then my original invoice and the rest of my paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan, and that is where the original owner purchased it, and picked it up in August of 69 new. So I am thinking dealer swap or something.
Possible but not likely in my opinion. How far apart are the dealerships?
More likely that the NCRS is wrong.
Has there been a documented case of NCRS providing wrong information from the shipping reports?
Yes, the first report on mine listed the dealer ship 'zone' wrong; it happens that I knew what the zone was supposed to be, so I asked them to check, and it turned out the microfiche card was 'damaged in that area' and they read '31' as '21'... I got a corrected report later...
Ok, thanks for clarifying. That falls under the category of a "clerical error" or incomplete record error and not some kind of fraud.
I would like to think we have at least one thing we can count on being genuine!
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Guys, in dealer trades the p-o-p will reflect the selling dealer, the window sticker, car shipper all of the GM factory prepared paper will reflect the original purchasing dealer, seldom if ever did they go back and change original GM documents because simple fact is GM sold it to a different dealer and if it was dealer traded the p-o-p usually is the only thing that reflects the selling dealer. You could have a hand written dealer invoice I guess, but I would expect all GM paper to show original purchasing dealer.
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So I would have to go through the state of Ohio (NCRS shows the selling dealer there)to see if they would have a car shipper, since all of my other paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan?
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Are you trying to confuse the issue, Austin??? :) :)
The NCRS paperwork shows the Ohio dealer that originally received the car as shipped from the factory! (NOT the selling dealer).. your other paperwork (from a Michigan dealer?), I assume is paperwork you received from your seller (who was presumably the original retail buyer??)...
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I am trying to clarify is all. it is plausible my car was deliver to the dealer in northwest ohio, and then traded to the dealer in Plymouth about an hour and 40 minutes away.
I am just trying to figure out if the car actually ever got delivered to Ohio, or if GM/Chevrolet regional manager would have seen the order, and just went ahead and marked the car to deliver to Plymouth Michigan, or notified the Ohio dealer that they needed his car for a similar order in Plymouth.
And thats the other thing thats strange to me, for this story to work, that Ohio dealer would have had to have the exact car that my original owner ordered with those exact options of Z/28 in Garnet red, ZL-2 hood, and the U16 Tach (center fuel gauge) no console. I know they made 20,302 of these machines, but it seems unlikely that this car just happen to roll off the line a week or 2 right after the order was placed, and then traded and delivered that quickly.
Just saying
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This one was for a L-78 it was over 300 miles between dealers. (both very small towns) The original owner wanted the biggest motor he could in a camaro, he was unaware of the 427 camaro's at that time.
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I am trying to clarify is all. it is plausible my car was deliver to the dealer in northwest ohio, and then traded to the dealer in Plymouth about an hour and 40 minutes away.
I am just trying to figure out if the car actually ever got delivered to Ohio, or if GM/Chevrolet regional manager would have seen the order, and just went ahead and marked the car to deliver to Plymouth Michigan, or notified the Ohio dealer that they needed his car for a similar order in Plymouth.
And thats the other thing thats strange to me, for this story to work, that Ohio dealer would have had to have the exact car that my original owner ordered with those exact options of Z/28 in Garnet red, ZL-2 hood, and the U16 Tach (center fuel gauge) no console. I know they made 20,302 of these machines, but it seems unlikely that this car just happen to roll off the line a week or 2 right after the order was placed, and then traded and delivered that quickly.
Just saying
Provide some dates (of order, of production, etc), and the zone/dealer numbers for the two dealers involved.. and I'm sure we can figure out very simply. What do you have in regards to the original owner's *order* of the car? Just a handwritten order form with the Michigan dealer??
PS. I've gone in with specific options/colors etc to a dealer near me, and had them *check* and find out that another dealer was getting one in (very shortly) exactly what I wanted... so my dealer would 'make a deal/trade' with the receiving dealer... they both make out, and I save some time over waiting 4-6 weeks for an order to be generated/built. New Car dealers never want to 'place a new order' with the factory when they have cars on the lot (that might satisfy you), OR that they can trade with another dealer for a car that will meet your requirements...
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Gary go back and read what rsinor said.
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So I would have to go through the state of Ohio (NCRS shows the selling dealer there)to see if they would have a car shipper, since all of my other paperwork shows Plymouth Michigan?
State of Ohio will not have the shipper.
What are the critical dates so we can put together a timeline?
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Gary go back and read what rsinor said.
I understood what Roy said perfectly, Bryon.. what is your issue?
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Guys, in dealer trades the p-o-p will reflect the selling dealer,
the window sticker, car shipper all of the GM factory prepared paper will reflect the original purchasing dealer
seldom if ever did they go back and change original GM documents because simple fact is GM sold it to a different dealer.
and if it was dealer traded the p-o-p usually is the only thing that reflects the selling dealer.
You could have a hand written dealer invoice I guess, but I would expect all GM paper to show original purchasing dealer.
It is my understanding that the paperwork is all from the selling dealer, not the original purchasing dealer from the NCRS report. But maybe I am wrong.
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Guys, in dealer trades the p-o-p will reflect the selling dealer,
the window sticker, car shipper all of the GM factory prepared paper will reflect the original purchasing dealer
seldom if ever did they go back and change original GM documents because simple fact is GM sold it to a different dealer.
and if it was dealer traded the p-o-p usually is the only thing that reflects the selling dealer.
You could have a hand written dealer invoice I guess, but I would expect all GM paper to show original purchasing dealer.
It is my understanding that the paperwork is all from the selling dealer, not the original purchasing dealer from the NCRS report. But maybe I am wrong.
that is what Austin stated; the NCRS paper lists the OH dealer, and Austin's 'other' original paperwork from the dealer in MI. It just means that the car was shipped from the factory to the Ohio dealer, and a 'dealer to dealer' trade from the OH dealer to the MI dealer where the car was sold to satisfy the customer order... Happened/and happens/ all the time.
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Guys, in dealer trades the p-o-p will reflect the selling dealer,
the window sticker, car shipper all of the GM factory prepared paper will reflect the original purchasing dealer
seldom if ever did they go back and change original GM documents because simple fact is GM sold it to a different dealer.
and if it was dealer traded the p-o-p usually is the only thing that reflects the selling dealer.
You could have a hand written dealer invoice I guess, but I would expect all GM paper to show original purchasing dealer.
It is my understanding that the paperwork is all from the selling dealer, not the original purchasing dealer from the NCRS report. But maybe I am wrong.
that is what Austin stated; the NCRS paper lists the OH dealer, and Austin's 'other' original paperwork from the dealer in MI. It just means that the car was shipped from the factory to the Ohio dealer, and a 'dealer to dealer' trade from the OH dealer to the MI dealer where the car was sold to satisfy the customer order... Happened/and happens/ all the time.
Yes dealer trades happened in 1960's and today, but the paperwork from GM reflects original purchasing dealer, not final selling dealer, even today if you get your window sticker on a vehicle your selling dealer traded for it will reflect the original dealer your dealer got it from before he sold it to you.
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Thank you rsinor!
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Any updates on this?