Author Topic: 327/307  (Read 9430 times)

z10kl

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327/307
« on: January 17, 2012, 12:23:56 AM »
What is the earliest known 307 Camaro? 

tom

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 12:23:43 PM »
Doubt it's early but mine is 2D.
69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speed
o

rutsy69

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 07:17:18 PM »
LA built 01A

bertfam

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 07:26:39 PM »
The L14 (307/200) replaced the LF7 (327/210) on January 1st, 1969.

Ed

z10kl

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 09:03:07 PM »
I know the date but didn't know what that meant as far as the engines istalled in the cars. Seems like for there to be 01A 307s the notice would have had to gone out early enough that dealers would know what engine would be in the car they ordered. I would have thought a date deadline would have been that any car ordered after a certain date would get the new engine.  I mean how would they know how many 327s to have on hand if they were going to start putting 307s in on the first workday of JAN?
What would have been the leadtime on order to build to ship dates for a base car in this timeframe?

rich69rs

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 12:20:05 AM »
I have been asking the same question regarding my '69 RS since Nov 1991 when I purchased it.  Although it has the original Powerglide and rear end, it did not have the original engine in it when I purchased it.  The fenders were (and still are) badged 327.

Since I don't have any documentation the assumption by most (including the CRG database) is that my car (Norwood, 01C build) left the factory with a 307 and not a 327.

Shortly after I purchased the car, I was able to track its history back to 1982 and know that in 1982 it was as I purchased it in Nov 1991 -  327 badges and all.  (Obviously someone back in the day could have changed the fender badges.)  

A few years ago, I tried comparing BDY numbers from the trim tags of various cars against mine to see if there was any sort of a trend.  I havenít looked at this information for a while now, but your question reminded me of it.  Previous posts to this forum remind us that the body number was assigned at the time of order.  Build dates were assigned when the car body actually began to be fabricated.


From the 11 NOR trim tag body numbers that I have collected (not enough for a good statistical average, but a start nonetheless) I have the following:

Build         Last Digits of BDY number

12B              208874
12C              213656
12D              218542
01B              226339
01B              229291
01B              231468
01B              231654
01C              220831
01C              225292
01C              225431
01C              237549

From the 1st BDY number (12B build) through the 7th BDY number (last 01B build); if you plot the BDY numbers vs build date, you have a fairly straight line which would seem to indicate, that up to that point, the BDY numbers and build dates were following a logical and sequential progression.  

In the above list, the first 01C build is my car.  It and the next two 01C built cars have BDY numbers lower than the last 01B built car in the list.  From the trend of the 1st seven BDY numbers in the list, you would have expected my car, 220831 to have been an 01A build and the next two 01C cars (225292 and 225431) to have been late 01A or 01B built cars.  But all three were delayed, for some reason, to 01C builds.

I know there are a lot of reasons why a carís production could have been delayed including something as mundane as not having the correct color floor mats in stock at the time resulting in the building of the car being delayed until the floor mats were in stock (along with everything else required).  

However, what I have also wondered, is could my carís build have been postponed due to waiting on a few additional 327ís to make it to Norwood to finish out production of all 327 /  í69 Camaros ordered prior to 1 Jan 1969.  

So the question is this Ė is it conceivable  / possible that a 1969 Camaro could have been placed on order on Friday, 27 Dec 1968 optioned with a 327?  If that happened, the car would have obviously been built, after 1 Jan 1969.  I, like you, would like to know when the last Camaro with a 327 was actually built, but that information apparently has been lost to time.
Richard Thomas
1969 RS

KurtS

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 07:02:09 AM »
The plant would know the quantity of 327's required to build up to 12/31 - that's the scheduler's job.
Data shows that the changeover really did occur right about the beginning of the year.
GM of Canada data shows the last 327 car be 9N571395.

There was no way to order a 327. It was just the base / default V8 engine.

The LM1/L65 changeover was a bigger deal - some LM1 orders would have been rejected or changed (and the dealer notified of the change) to L65 engines.
Kurt S
CRG

rich69rs

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 08:16:25 PM »
Thanks Kurt,

Good information.  This is the 1st time I've ever seen info on the last production 327 tied to a VIN.

From the 1969 End of the Month VIN Report table (CRG website), last VIN produced in Dec 1968 at Norwood was 9N569987 and the last VIN produced in Jan 69 at Norwood was 9N589720.  So in Jan 1969, Norwood produced 19733 Camaros.  From past info. provided by JohnZ, I recall the line rate was 912 cars / day.

VIN 9N571395 would have been the 1,408th unit produced at Norwood in Jan 69 and with a production line rate of 912 cars / day, that means that the last 327 went down the line at Norwood sometime during the 2nd production day of Jan 1969.

Good to know - I've always wondered -

Richard
Richard Thomas
1969 RS

KurtS

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 03:50:53 AM »
Even better, here's the earliest known 307 car!  9N571561
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280808018806

BTW Richard, I wouldn't count on those end-of-month records to quite that level of accuracy.....

It also occurs to me that this changeover was a bit complicated by the fact there were 3 engine assemblies being discontinued and 4 being introduced. I'm pretty sure they'd order the various 327 engines and schedule them all to deplete about the same time. Not as complicated as some changeovers - it always amazed me how well the plant handled stuff like this. But sometimes things I thought would be easy......
Kurt S
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IZRSSS

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 04:01:27 AM »
Talk about a doc in pristine condition! That thing is perfect...

z10kl

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 02:39:52 AM »
And that early 307 didn't sell till July. I wonder what color combo it was?

1968RSZ28

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 04:28:25 AM »
And that early 307 didn't sell till July. I wonder what color combo it was?

Per the docs, Fathom Green (57) with Ivory/Black standard interior (727).

Paul

william

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 07:56:07 PM »
In the above list, the first 01C build is my car.  It and the next two 01C built cars have BDY numbers lower than the last 01B built car in the list.  From the trend of the 1st seven BDY numbers in the list, you would have expected my car, 220831 to have been an 01A build and the next two 01C cars (225292 and 225431) to have been late 01A or 01B built cars.  But all three were delayed, for some reason, to 01C builds.

I know there are a lot of reasons why a carís production could have been delayed including something as mundane as not having the correct color floor mats in stock at the time resulting in the building of the car being delayed until the floor mats were in stock (along with everything else required).  

First of all, there were about 7,000 dealers ordering cars at that time. They were not equal in terms of influence with the Zone or the factory. A high volume dealer in a large metro area is in a position to demand and get better delivery lead time than a small dealer in a rural area.

For standard models parts availability is not much of an issue. Like many products cars are planned to a sales forecast. Chevy knew most Camaros [50%] will be ordered with the standard 8 cylinder engine. At both plants the production rate is 912 units per day; the constraint being body production or paint. So Chevy plans for about 450 standard 8 cylinder engines daily for each Camaro plant. All other standard components, same planning. Remember that production of everything is constrained by something.

What can become a problem is optional models/equipment. Chevy probably initially forecast 16,000 Z/28s for '69, twice '68 production, and planned accordingly. That means they needed 320 472 intakes, 4053 carbs, 480 distributors etc per week and tooled up for those numbers. When dealers started ordering 500 Z/28s per week, they could not meet that demand. November '68 Chevy sent a letter to dealers stating they would not accept Z/28 orders until further notice.

The BDY number was not assigned when the car was ordered; it was assigned when the order was confirmed back to the dealer. Norwood and Van Nuys were on the same system. All the confirmation meant was that the car could and would be built. At that point it was not scheduled. The BDY number has nothing to do with the scheduling of production.

At some point planners have to decide whose cars are getting built that week. Since there was very limited room to store them the ship to location had to be a major factor. Paint color may have been a factor; they did not have 18 paint booths. Cars also vary in labor content due to optional equipment; you can't schedule 75% of the days' cars to get vinyl tops. At the point an order was scheduled the dealer was sent a ďScheduled Price Sheet.Ē Very similar in appearance to a window sticker, it listed a scheduled shipping date.

So a Camaro built after cars ordered later was not necessarily delayed; it was simply scheduled that way.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 03:35:00 PM by william »
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dldebertin

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307/327 build dates
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2023, 07:23:47 PM »
I ordered my 1969 Camaro from the factory the last week in November 1968

I still have it.  The Trim Tag says 12D and the sequence number on the Trim Tag says NOR217772 
I have long interpreted the Trim Tag build day as the 4th week in December, 1968 probably in the days between Christmas 1968 and New Years Day

The car arrived in the first week in February of 1969 and I took possession.

The VIN on the car is 9N570099  which is a later number than some guys claim in the maximum number a Camaro built in 1968 can have, but the Trim Tag says 12D

Between when I ordered the car and when it arrived, I got a copy of the new sales brochure which claimed the standard engine was the 307 not the 327. But I also have the earlier brochure listing the 327 as the standard engine.

The first thing I did when I saw the car is to see whether the fender numbers said 327 or 307. THey said 327

I always thought my Camaro was one of the last to roll off the Norwood line with the 327.  The original 327 is still in the car. 

But some of what I have just said does not jive with the earlier 327/307 discussion about when exactly GM swapped. My understanding that all cars with the standard V8 built Jan 1, 1969 and later had the 307, but if earlier, the 327

The 327 V8 is a nice engine especially when paired with the 3-speed Turbohydramatic :-)

comments?







rich69rs

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2023, 09:00:57 PM »
"I ordered my 1969 Camaro from the factory the last week in November 1968.......The VIN on the car is 9N570099  which is a later number than some guys claim in the maximum number a Camaro built in 1968 can have..............but the Trim Tag says 12D.     dldebertin "

Interesting to say the least, because the CRG 1967-1969 LOS/NOR End-of-Month Monthly VIN Report found here:  http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#basics states, if I read it correctly, that the last Norwood VIN produced in Dec 1968 was 9N569987.  Your VIN, 9N570099 is 112 units later.  Since your car still has its original 327, looks like at least a few base V8 327's were built the first day or two of Jan 1969 as existing 327 inventory was depleted.



Richard

Richard Thomas
1969 RS

william

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2023, 09:06:02 PM »
In my many decades of studying Chevrolet documentation, I have come to take any 'date' with a grain of salt. A good example is the famous chambered exhaust recall. The 1st notice states:

"Consequently, and effective in production on November 25, 1968..."

The letter to owners for the second recall stated:

"...produced prior to December 4, 1968..."

Another example comes from the 'last car of the month' report. I have seen an NCRS doc listing a VIN 12 units later than the report.

I have spent much time reverse-engineering both NOR and Van Nuys production calendars. It will always remain a work in process but the current version has N570099 final assembly occurring on January 2, 1969. Taking Chevy data at face value, it was the 112th car off the line that day and was in process during calendar year 1968.

I have stated many times the date on the body tag is at best only a general indicator of when a car was final assembled.
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dldebertin

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2023, 12:17:59 AM »
trim tag jpg attached

dldebertin

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2023, 12:34:18 AM »
I could believe that the car was mostly complete with a 327 engine already installed and the 12D trim tag in place by Dec 31, 1968, but that the car did not actually roll out of the plant until Jan 2nd 1969. That would be consistent with the idea that no Camaro had a 327 installed after the Dec 31, but not everything that had a 327 installed had rolled off the assembly line to be shipped to a dealer on Dec 31 or earlier.

bcmiller

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2023, 12:54:10 AM »
OK folks not quite sure this seems to be such a big deal.

It seems that if cars were in the system for the build to start 12/31/68 or earlier, they got the 327.

If they entered the system 1/1/69 then they got the 307.

ALSO, if people actually read the information that goes with the VIN and production table
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany

you will find this.

The list below is Chevrolet's documentation of the end-of-month VIN for the GM assembly plants. * Due to several limitations the VINs in this list will not necessarily correlate exactly with either a specific calendar day or the build week on the cowl tag. The data for some months (especially May and June 68 at Norwood) deviate significantly from actual build dates, while other months correlate well.* We are unsure of the source of these deviations, but uncertainties include:

It isn't known what day of the month was used for logging the monthly production, or if the same system was used for all years.
Vehicles were NOT assembled in the exact order of VIN. For any given VIN selected as the nominal "last" for that month, it is likely that slightly lower or higher VINs might either still be in process, or might have already been assembled.
The build date on the cowl tag is when the body was started. It was attached 3-4 days before final assembly of the car was completed and build week dates did not always align with calendar weeks.
Despite these limitations, the list remains a useful guide for approximate confirmation of date as to when a given VIN was built.


Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

KurtS

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2023, 03:56:08 PM »
BTW Richard, I wouldn't count on those end-of-month records to quite that level of accuracy.....
Yup, people still quote the monthly reports and never read all the caveats. I don't know how to make them clearer. Any suggestions?

9N571395 is the last known 327 car. 9N571561 is the first known 307 car. Pretty clear transition. Except there is one reputed 327 car built about 2 days later. I never saw the engine pad for it - maybe the POP was in error on that car or it was just scheduled late.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 04:20:53 PM by KurtS »
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dldebertin

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2023, 04:10:15 PM »
????  Typo?

KurtS

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2023, 04:21:59 PM »
Yup, got distracted in the middle of writing it. Fixed. Look, there goes another squirrel!
Kurt S
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dldebertin

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Re: 327/307
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2023, 05:12:54 PM »
So if we have a bunch of cars with VIN numbers assigned after Jan 1 1969 but still with 327 engines, do the Trim Tags on any of them say 01A not 12D? Now THAT is the real question.

I WAS under the impression that this all was related to the fact that the 327 engine did not meet pollution requirements that went into effect Jan 1 1969, but that the 307 engine did. Of course the 307 also lost 10 rated hp 200 vs 210 and generally is not seen as the greatest small block V8 Chevrolet ever built, whereas the 327 is something different from that entirely!

Part of this involves the deal GM must struck with the EPA regarding the dates over which the new standards applied barring the 327 as installed in 1968 and how the transition was carried out so all cars could be sold.