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Author Topic: Crossram manifold  (Read 10164 times)
Jon Mello
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« on: October 03, 2011, 01:37:53 PM »

Many thanks go out to Tom McIntyre for sending me these photos of his early prototype cross ram manifold so we can all enjoy them.
Wayne Guinn's book Camaro: Untold Secrets is a great resource for learning more about these manifolds.

Here's a shot of Tom's manifold as seen from above. The rear of the manifold is to the right.


A view of the manifold as seen from the rear. The hex-head brass plug is not original.


A view of the manifold as seen from the front. The gasket between the lid and base is much thicker than original.


A look down through one of the carburetor openings.


This view shows the lid removed and flipped upside down.


Handmade fuel distribution fixes are seen here at the inside/front of the manifold by intake runners #1 and #3.


Another fuel distribution fix, this one to the rear of the #4 intake runner.


A look at the bottom side of the manifold showing a heat shield riveted in place.


Another look at the heat shield. These heat shields were only used on the prototypes and then
discontinued on the production manifolds. They weren't found to be necessary.


Some material has been added to raise the height of the port and some grinding is evident to clean up that area, as well as to to match up with the cylinder
head ports. Also of note are the oval shaped holes for the intake mounting bolts which probably were necessitated by a decked block and/or milled heads.


Another look at the bottom of the manifold, this time as seen from the front. The shape of the front of the prototype manifolds
around the waterneck area is different than the production units.


Same thing but this time from the rear. The casting date and part number are under this shield, which has never been disturbed.
Another prototype base which has had its shield removed showed a casting number of 0-310510.


The casting numbers on the lid of this manifold. Casting number for this piece is 0-310512.


Closer view and different angle. Casting date which looked like 12-8-67 above appears like it might be 12-3-67.


Someone has put a freeze plug in the hole for the oil filler tube. The Winters Foundry mark
to the right is slightly larger and raised higher than on the production cross ram manifold.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 08:46:05 PM by Jon Mello » Logged

Jon Mello
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 10:51:23 AM »

Here's a link to a CRG report I wrote on cross rams many years ago.

http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 03:40:58 PM »

Jon, I believe there was a similar if not identical manifold displayed at the 07 Camaro Nats.
I am glad your pics are so much more detailed.


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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 01:46:38 PM »

Thanks for the photo, James. That does appear to be another prototype manifold. I wonder if it is the same one that Wayne used for ID purposes when he wrote his book.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 03:10:56 PM »

Original GM cross ram manifold owned by Camaro enthusiast Jay Parsons. The lid is dated 8-21-69 and the base is dated 10-1-69.












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Jon Mello
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 06:23:37 PM »

1969 article on the Offenhauser cross ram, which is strikingly similar to the GM part. An interesting thing about the
Offy manifold is the variety of lids they offered for it, which allowed different carbs to be used. (Jon Mello Collection)



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Jon Mello
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 10:14:53 PM »

I have never seen a Weber lid like that before. I wonder if there are any around yet.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 12:21:40 AM »

I have seen the Weber lids but have never seen anybody run one on a car. I think they look pretty cool.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 10:57:50 AM »

From the Bell Auto Parts catalog of 1970, courtesy of Robert Lodewyk.

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 09:20:29 PM »

Jon, I've read a fair bit of your articles on the crossram and find you very informative. I'm wondering if you have any info on a car that came to Canada called the Mini Mauler from Baldwin Motion Performance? I may have the original air cleaner from this car. It was a prototype. I also have a 68 prototype crossram manifold. Both were documented by Wayne Guinn and on his website. If anyone knows anything about either the air cleaner or manifold and how any racing history, I'd love to hear about it.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 10:47:48 AM »

I have seen the Mini Mauler article but did know know the story about the car going to Canada. If you have some pics of the air cleaner and prototype crossram, post them here when you get a chance.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 06:40:13 PM »

Jon, I also have read the Mini Mauler article and have no proof that the car was sold into Canada. But for sure the crossram and air cleaner from that car showed up in Canada. I purchased the air cleaner at a swap meet in Barrie, Ontario about the same time that someone from Georgetown, Ontario purchased the crossram. When I was at the GM Nationals several years ago I met with Mr. Thompson and had him sign the prototype air cleaner. He did a discussion in conjunction with Wayne Guinn and Rick's First Generation Parts.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 06:43:08 PM »

I'll have to dig up more of my air cleaner pictures but here is a picture of the underside of the lid. Looks like rods were welded in for spacing and then cut out at some point prior to use.
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 06:46:58 PM »

Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up. I guess I'm looking for anyone with owner history of that green 68 Z/28 that had the crossram installed by Motion. If I had the VIN I could find out if it was ever registered in Canada, or if the manifold was removed then ended up here.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 01:16:16 AM »

I had a schedule conflict and couldn't attend that show but really wanted to. I don't have a VIN for that Mini Mauler car. Sure wish I did but no such luck. Nice to know that you can look up a car's registration history up there in Canada. If I can come up with a VIN of an interesting car that may have Canadian history, I might give you a job to do.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2013, 12:42:59 AM »

CARS magazine road test of the Fathom Blue crossram-equipped "Mini-Mauler" from Motion. (Jon Mello Collection)









« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 01:04:15 AM by Jon Mello » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2013, 09:25:48 AM »

Does anyone know when this article came out in Cars Magazine? I see the dual 4 intake has the splash shield on the back that was not present on the production units.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »

It was in the October 1968 issue which may have come out around August of that year and would have been written before that.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2013, 10:08:29 PM »

Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up.

68crossram, Thank you for sharing the very informative letter. I'm working on a little project right now and this letter appears to have some data noted that I have been researching. I would greatly appreciate if you could post and share the remainder of the letter.
Thanks again!

The Cars Mag story on the Mini Mauler  sure gets the blood pumping!
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 07:03:49 AM »

The picture of the letter came from either documentation that Wayne Guinn had or Mr. Thompson. It was displayed on the table along with the crossram manifolds. That is all I have of it. Somewhere I have contact info for Wayne but think he might also have contact info on his website.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 12:04:50 AM »

These are some pictures sent to me by the late Scott Madsen a few years ago. His father was Doug Madsen, one of the top
Corvette/Rochester FI mechanics in the country back in the '60s. Doug was the mechanic for Steve Elfenbein's Marina Blue
Z-28 out of New Jersey and this crossram is supposed to be the one that was on Elfenbein's car back in the late '60s. Scott
told me that he was told by Steve that the little squirters in the carbs were done by one of Vince Piggins' guys (probably
Bill Howell).













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Jon Mello
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 12:07:48 AM »

Here are some photos of an interesting fiberglass crossram aircleaner base from the Frank Profeta, Jr Collection.
This base supposedly came right from the Penske garage when they were doing some annual clean up, according
to the person who sold it to Frank. Frank bought it sometime in the early eighties. It did have a seal on it when it
was received but it was disintegrating and making a mess so it was removed. It's not known who had installed the
the seal in the first place.
 
The Penske Racing on the base was probably made from a Dymo label tape gun. The label on the base appears to
be part of the base. Looking at the base from the top you would not immediate catch that it is fiberglass except
that the lip found on the edge of a steel original is not there on the fiberglass part.
 
Warren asks "Did Penske use the vent tube that went into the base on his other crossrams? It's possible this fiberglass
base was made and never used." I have not had time yet to look at the '69 Penske engine photos to answer Warren's
question but that bears looking into.
 
This fiberglass base weighs 1.8 lbs. compared to 3.6 lbs. for an NOS original example. It's not known for sure if this actually
came from Penske or if someone was making the bases as a repop and stuck a Penske Racing label on one. Hopefully someone
here on our forum can verify its origin.

Mitch Moore from Kentucky also has one of these bases and I will post pics of Mitch's base next. If you look at Mitch's and
Frank's base where the vent tube hole has been taped off you can clearly see they were made from the same mold, however
Mitch's does not say Penske on it anywhere.



Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


An original NOS steel base on the left vs. the fiberglass reproduction (no lip present).

Warren Malkin, Jr photo

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 12:19:27 AM »

Here are photos of Mitch's base. He claims to have bought this at Carlisle back in the early '80s. Anybody have information on these fiberglass bases?



Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


No "Penske Racing" imprint on this base.

Mitch Moore photo
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 12:19:00 AM »

Here we have another fiberglass air cleaner base for a crossram. This is one that Frank Dihartce bought from Dick Lewis around 1980.
Dick told Frank that it came out of Chevrolet Engineering for Penske Racing. Frank's base looks like it came from the same mold that
made the two bases above, however the hole has been punched out for the crankcase breather elbow and no "Penske Racing" is embossed.


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 10:17:00 AM »

great pics

I have seen those nozzles before. They were used by some to make a single acc pump Holley work like the double pumper.

The double pumper Holley 850 came out about 1968 and was used on the L88 Corvette then some clever aftermarket co. sold a kit called a
"gear injector kit". The kit had a acc nozzle conversion with the tubes going into the secondaries and a set of gears that replaced the vac sec parts.
It converted a Holley single pump vac sec carb into a double pump mech sec carb.

I have an old Holley 3310 that has the conversion installed.

That tube idea may have come from a Holley engineer working with the cross ram project?
interesting stuff

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1109RWHP
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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 10:47:28 PM »

Can you post a picture of the carb with the kit on it?
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JoeC
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 08:10:31 PM »

here is the old vac sec Holley with the "gear injector kit"

I have an add for the kit from an old magizine
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 10:33:20 PM »

That is pretty neat. I have never seen anything like it. Did it come with a 50cc pump too?
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2013, 09:57:17 PM »

Here's a Motion Performance ad showing the kit.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2013, 10:05:44 PM »

CARS magazine feature on the Edelbrock version of the crossram manifold used on their "Z-30" project Camaro.







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Jon Mello
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 08:42:10 AM »

Here's the CARS magazine feature on their Z-30 "Green Meanie" street/drag racer that was their answer to the
"Blue Maxi" project Camaro done by Car & Driver magazine.











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Jon Mello
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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 09:09:50 AM »

I remember the blue maxi, as I have that magazine somewhere in my collection, but I don't recall the 'green meanie'..  Do you have any color photos?  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2013, 08:21:38 PM »

Sorry Gary, no I don't have any color shots of the car. I wish I did but it I don't think any ever made it into print. I would deduce that the car was fathom green.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2013, 07:13:28 AM »

Any shots of the side of the car I'd like to see what those side exhausts look like on the car.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 11:10:55 AM »

Sorry, Todd.  Those are the only shots of the car that I know about.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 11:52:42 AM »

Vintage crossram photos in a '68 Z28...

Paul
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2013, 12:45:42 AM »

Super Chevy article on the Chevy cross ram from 1982 showing a few vintage pics
as well as the original installation instruction sheets. (Jon Mello Collection)













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Jon Mello
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2013, 12:52:10 AM »

Many thanks to Frank Dihartce for sharing pictures of his April 8, 1968 dated crossram with us. Frank tells me that
he believes this is the earliest casting date that was made available through the Chevy parts department for purchase
by the general public. These April manifolds still had the provision for the oil shield on the underside on the bottom
half of the manifold. Frank's manifold is using the LIST-4295 carburetors but I think GM was still using the LIST-4210A
carburetors in April '68.



























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Jon Mello
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2013, 01:16:25 AM »

More awesome crossram goodies from the Frank Dihartce Collection. Some neat details in these photos.

























































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Jon Mello
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« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2013, 01:20:40 AM »

Here's a November '68 crossram manifold setup, also from the Frank Dihartce Collection.











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Jon Mello
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« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2013, 01:25:55 AM »

These are some nice, close-up shots of an original GM fuel block for the crossram set-up, again from the Frank Dihartce Collection.
Many thanks to Frank for sharing these photos with us.












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Jon Mello
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« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2014, 12:02:16 AM »

Here's another crossram from the Frank Dihartce Collection. This is what Frank has to say about it...

"This is another crossram 4.8.68 dated setup I bought. It is stamped “KL RACING” on the front runner, and came with two 4295 Holley carbs 891 dated, fuel block with four lines and one hose nipple, oil splash shield, oil fill tube, and water neck. The manifold lid has no date which is consistent with the other 4.8.68 unit I had, and the manifold bottom is exactly the same as my other 4.8.68 unit."

Anyone out there have any thoughts on who KL Racing might be?











































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Jon Mello
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2014, 03:48:04 PM »

Fascinating and informative thread! Were teams allowed to run either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes in period, or was it only the GM product that was homologated for use?

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2014, 11:15:23 PM »

Thanks, Steve. You could run aftermarket manifolds starting in 1971 but by then the 2x4 manifolds had been disallowed. Camaros were only able to use the GM crossram in '68 and '69 then they had to go to the single 4-bbl manifold in 1970.
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« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2014, 03:47:43 PM »

Thanks Jon, great info! So given the prices commanded for the GM manifolds, and their scarcity (as I say that there appear to be two of them on ebay as I write this), are HTA car owners running 1968/69 cars allowed to fit either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes or can they only fit the GM intake, as per the period?
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2014, 08:48:25 AM »

Steve, the HTA group has allowed aftermarket crossrams since the authentic GM versions are so expensive, among other considerations. Years ago they allowed Vic Edelbrock to use the Edelbrock version of the crossram on his Camaro because, well, he's Vic Edelbrock. Vic had (and still has) been very supportive of the group in a number of ways, so it was a courtesy extended to him. But it has grown from there to encompass some of the other Camaros running in the group.
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« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2014, 11:30:24 AM »

Just noticed but I wonder why in the Z30 article they used a small balancer..
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Darrell Cook

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2014, 12:39:11 PM »

Coudn't tell you. I think that's a display engine and not what actually went in the Z/30 car.
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« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2014, 02:11:46 PM »

Makes sense..
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Darrell Cook

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