Author Topic: Crossram manifold  (Read 36883 times)

Jon Mello

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Crossram manifold
« on: October 03, 2011, 06:37:53 PM »
Many thanks go out to Tom McIntyre for sending me these photos of his early prototype cross ram manifold so we can all enjoy them.
Wayne Guinn's book Camaro: Untold Secrets is a great resource for learning more about these manifolds.

Here's a shot of Tom's manifold as seen from above. The rear of the manifold is to the right.


A view of the manifold as seen from the rear. The hex-head brass plug is not original.


A view of the manifold as seen from the front. The gasket between the lid and base is much thicker than original.


A look down through one of the carburetor openings.


This view shows the lid removed and flipped upside down.


Handmade fuel distribution fixes are seen here at the inside/front of the manifold by intake runners #1 and #3.


Another fuel distribution fix, this one to the rear of the #4 intake runner.


A look at the bottom side of the manifold showing a heat shield riveted in place.


Another look at the heat shield. These heat shields were only used on the prototypes and then
discontinued on the production manifolds. They weren't found to be necessary.


Some material has been added to raise the height of the port and some grinding is evident to clean up that area, as well as to to match up with the cylinder
head ports. Also of note are the oval shaped holes for the intake mounting bolts which probably were necessitated by a decked block and/or milled heads.


Another look at the bottom of the manifold, this time as seen from the front. The shape of the front of the prototype manifolds
around the waterneck area is different than the production units.


Same thing but this time from the rear. The casting date and part number are under this shield, which has never been disturbed.
Another prototype base which has had its shield removed showed a casting number of 0-310510.


The casting numbers on the lid of this manifold. Casting number for this piece is 0-310512.


Closer view and different angle. Casting date which looked like 12-8-67 above appears like it might be 12-3-67.


Someone has put a freeze plug in the hole for the oil filler tube. The Winters Foundry mark
to the right is slightly larger and raised higher than on the production cross ram manifold.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 01:46:05 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »
Here's a link to a CRG report I wrote on cross rams many years ago.

http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 08:40:58 PM »
Jon, I believe there was a similar if not identical manifold displayed at the 07 Camaro Nats.
I am glad your pics are so much more detailed.


James
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 06:46:38 PM »
Thanks for the photo, James. That does appear to be another prototype manifold. I wonder if it is the same one that Wayne used for ID purposes when he wrote his book.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 08:10:56 PM »
Original GM cross ram manifold owned by Camaro enthusiast Jay Parsons. The lid is dated 8-21-69 and the base is dated 10-1-69.












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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 11:23:37 PM »
1969 article on the Offenhauser cross ram, which is strikingly similar to the GM part. An interesting thing about the
Offy manifold is the variety of lids they offered for it, which allowed different carbs to be used. (Jon Mello Collection)



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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 03:14:53 AM »
I have never seen a Weber lid like that before. I wonder if there are any around yet.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 05:21:40 AM »
I have seen the Weber lids but have never seen anybody run one on a car. I think they look pretty cool.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 03:57:50 PM »
From the Bell Auto Parts catalog of 1970, courtesy of Robert Lodewyk.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 02:20:29 AM »
Jon, I've read a fair bit of your articles on the crossram and find you very informative. I'm wondering if you have any info on a car that came to Canada called the Mini Mauler from Baldwin Motion Performance? I may have the original air cleaner from this car. It was a prototype. I also have a 68 prototype crossram manifold. Both were documented by Wayne Guinn and on his website. If anyone knows anything about either the air cleaner or manifold and how any racing history, I'd love to hear about it.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 03:47:48 PM »
I have seen the Mini Mauler article but did know know the story about the car going to Canada. If you have some pics of the air cleaner and prototype crossram, post them here when you get a chance.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 11:40:13 PM »
Jon, I also have read the Mini Mauler article and have no proof that the car was sold into Canada. But for sure the crossram and air cleaner from that car showed up in Canada. I purchased the air cleaner at a swap meet in Barrie, Ontario about the same time that someone from Georgetown, Ontario purchased the crossram. When I was at the GM Nationals several years ago I met with Mr. Thompson and had him sign the prototype air cleaner. He did a discussion in conjunction with Wayne Guinn and Rick's First Generation Parts.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »
I'll have to dig up more of my air cleaner pictures but here is a picture of the underside of the lid. Looks like rods were welded in for spacing and then cut out at some point prior to use.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 11:46:58 PM »
Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up. I guess I'm looking for anyone with owner history of that green 68 Z/28 that had the crossram installed by Motion. If I had the VIN I could find out if it was ever registered in Canada, or if the manifold was removed then ended up here.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 06:16:16 AM »
I had a schedule conflict and couldn't attend that show but really wanted to. I don't have a VIN for that Mini Mauler car. Sure wish I did but no such luck. Nice to know that you can look up a car's registration history up there in Canada. If I can come up with a VIN of an interesting car that may have Canadian history, I might give you a job to do.  ;)
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2013, 05:42:59 AM »
CARS magazine road test of the Fathom Blue crossram-equipped "Mini-Mauler" from Motion. (Jon Mello Collection)









« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 06:04:15 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2013, 02:25:48 PM »
Does anyone know when this article came out in Cars Magazine? I see the dual 4 intake has the splash shield on the back that was not present on the production units.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2013, 04:29:21 PM »
It was in the October 1968 issue which may have come out around August of that year and would have been written before that.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 03:08:29 AM »
Also some inter departmental memo from August 1967 regarding the crossram set up.

68crossram, Thank you for sharing the very informative letter. I'm working on a little project right now and this letter appears to have some data noted that I have been researching. I would greatly appreciate if you could post and share the remainder of the letter.
Thanks again!

The Cars Mag story on the Mini Mauler  sure gets the blood pumping!

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 12:03:49 PM »
The picture of the letter came from either documentation that Wayne Guinn had or Mr. Thompson. It was displayed on the table along with the crossram manifolds. That is all I have of it. Somewhere I have contact info for Wayne but think he might also have contact info on his website.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 05:04:50 AM »
These are some pictures sent to me by the late Scott Madsen a few years ago. His father was Doug Madsen, one of the top
Corvette/Rochester FI mechanics in the country back in the '60s. Doug was the mechanic for Steve Elfenbein's Marina Blue
Z-28 out of New Jersey and this crossram is supposed to be the one that was on Elfenbein's car back in the late '60s. Scott
told me that he was told by Steve that the little squirters in the carbs were done by one of Vince Piggins' guys (probably
Bill Howell).













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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 05:07:48 AM »
Here are some photos of an interesting fiberglass crossram aircleaner base from the Frank Profeta, Jr Collection.
This base supposedly came right from the Penske garage when they were doing some annual clean up, according
to the person who sold it to Frank. Frank bought it sometime in the early eighties. It did have a seal on it when it
was received but it was disintegrating and making a mess so it was removed. It's not known who had installed the
the seal in the first place.
 
The Penske Racing on the base was probably made from a Dymo label tape gun. The label on the base appears to
be part of the base. Looking at the base from the top you would not immediate catch that it is fiberglass except
that the lip found on the edge of a steel original is not there on the fiberglass part.
 
Warren asks "Did Penske use the vent tube that went into the base on his other crossrams? It's possible this fiberglass
base was made and never used." I have not had time yet to look at the '69 Penske engine photos to answer Warren's
question but that bears looking into.
 
This fiberglass base weighs 1.8 lbs. compared to 3.6 lbs. for an NOS original example. It's not known for sure if this actually
came from Penske or if someone was making the bases as a repop and stuck a Penske Racing label on one. Hopefully someone
here on our forum can verify its origin.

Mitch Moore from Kentucky also has one of these bases and I will post pics of Mitch's base next. If you look at Mitch's and
Frank's base where the vent tube hole has been taped off you can clearly see they were made from the same mold, however
Mitch's does not say Penske on it anywhere.



Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


Warren Malkin, Jr photo


An original NOS steel base on the left vs. the fiberglass reproduction (no lip present).

Warren Malkin, Jr photo

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 05:19:27 AM »
Here are photos of Mitch's base. He claims to have bought this at Carlisle back in the early '80s. Anybody have information on these fiberglass bases?



Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


Mitch Moore photo


No "Penske Racing" imprint on this base.

Mitch Moore photo
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 05:19:00 AM »
Here we have another fiberglass air cleaner base for a crossram. This is one that Frank Dihartce bought from Dick Lewis around 1980.
Dick told Frank that it came out of Chevrolet Engineering for Penske Racing. Frank's base looks like it came from the same mold that
made the two bases above, however the hole has been punched out for the crankcase breather elbow and no "Penske Racing" is embossed.


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo


Frank Dihartce photo
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 03:17:00 PM »
great pics

I have seen those nozzles before. They were used by some to make a single acc pump Holley work like the double pumper.

The double pumper Holley 850 came out about 1968 and was used on the L88 Corvette then some clever aftermarket co. sold a kit called a
"gear injector kit". The kit had a acc nozzle conversion with the tubes going into the secondaries and a set of gears that replaced the vac sec parts.
It converted a Holley single pump vac sec carb into a double pump mech sec carb.

I have an old Holley 3310 that has the conversion installed.

That tube idea may have come from a Holley engineer working with the cross ram project?
interesting stuff


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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 03:47:28 AM »
Can you post a picture of the carb with the kit on it?

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 01:10:31 AM »
here is the old vac sec Holley with the "gear injector kit"

I have an add for the kit from an old magizine

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 03:33:20 AM »
That is pretty neat. I have never seen anything like it. Did it come with a 50cc pump too?

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 02:57:17 AM »
Here's a Motion Performance ad showing the kit.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 03:05:44 AM »
CARS magazine feature on the Edelbrock version of the crossram manifold used on their "Z-30" project Camaro.







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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 01:42:10 PM »
Here's the CARS magazine feature on their Z-30 "Green Meanie" street/drag racer that was their answer to the
"Blue Maxi" project Camaro done by Car & Driver magazine.











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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 02:09:50 PM »
I remember the blue maxi, as I have that magazine somewhere in my collection, but I don't recall the 'green meanie'..  Do you have any color photos?  :)
Gary W / 09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe, '70 Mach I 
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 01:21:38 AM »
Sorry Gary, no I don't have any color shots of the car. I wish I did but it I don't think any ever made it into print. I would deduce that the car was fathom green.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2013, 12:13:28 PM »
Any shots of the side of the car I'd like to see what those side exhausts look like on the car.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2013, 04:10:55 PM »
Sorry, Todd.  Those are the only shots of the car that I know about.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 04:52:42 PM »
Vintage crossram photos in a '68 Z28...

Paul

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2013, 05:45:42 AM »
Super Chevy article on the Chevy cross ram from 1982 showing a few vintage pics
as well as the original installation instruction sheets. (Jon Mello Collection)













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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2013, 05:52:10 AM »
Many thanks to Frank Dihartce for sharing pictures of his April 8, 1968 dated crossram with us. Frank tells me that
he believes this is the earliest casting date that was made available through the Chevy parts department for purchase
by the general public. These April manifolds still had the provision for the oil shield on the underside on the bottom
half of the manifold. Frank's manifold is using the LIST-4295 carburetors but I think GM was still using the LIST-4210A
carburetors in April '68.



























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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2013, 06:16:25 AM »
More awesome crossram goodies from the Frank Dihartce Collection. Some neat details in these photos.

























































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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2013, 06:20:40 AM »
Here's a November '68 crossram manifold setup, also from the Frank Dihartce Collection.











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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2013, 06:25:55 AM »
These are some nice, close-up shots of an original GM fuel block for the crossram set-up, again from the Frank Dihartce Collection.
Many thanks to Frank for sharing these photos with us.












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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2014, 05:02:16 AM »
Here's another crossram from the Frank Dihartce Collection. This is what Frank has to say about it...

"This is another crossram 4.8.68 dated setup I bought. It is stamped “KL RACING” on the front runner, and came with two 4295 Holley carbs 891 dated, fuel block with four lines and one hose nipple, oil splash shield, oil fill tube, and water neck. The manifold lid has no date which is consistent with the other 4.8.68 unit I had, and the manifold bottom is exactly the same as my other 4.8.68 unit."

Anyone out there have any thoughts on who KL Racing might be?











































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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2014, 08:48:04 PM »
Fascinating and informative thread! Were teams allowed to run either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes in period, or was it only the GM product that was homologated for use?


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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2014, 04:15:23 AM »
Thanks, Steve. You could run aftermarket manifolds starting in 1971 but by then the 2x4 manifolds had been disallowed. Camaros were only able to use the GM crossram in '68 and '69 then they had to go to the single 4-bbl manifold in 1970.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2014, 08:47:43 PM »
Thanks Jon, great info! So given the prices commanded for the GM manifolds, and their scarcity (as I say that there appear to be two of them on ebay as I write this), are HTA car owners running 1968/69 cars allowed to fit either the Offenhauser or Edelbrock intakes or can they only fit the GM intake, as per the period?

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2014, 01:48:25 PM »
Steve, the HTA group has allowed aftermarket crossrams since the authentic GM versions are so expensive, among other considerations. Years ago they allowed Vic Edelbrock to use the Edelbrock version of the crossram on his Camaro because, well, he's Vic Edelbrock. Vic had (and still has) been very supportive of the group in a number of ways, so it was a courtesy extended to him. But it has grown from there to encompass some of the other Camaros running in the group.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2014, 04:30:24 PM »
Just noticed but I wonder why in the Z30 article they used a small balancer..
Darrell Cook


If you have a 68 L78 or Z28 Camaro please contact me so I can add your vehicle to my database.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2014, 05:39:11 PM »
Coudn't tell you. I think that's a display engine and not what actually went in the Z/30 car.
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2014, 07:11:46 PM »
Makes sense..
Darrell Cook


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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2014, 03:04:03 AM »
Early prototype crossram manifold advertised for sale on the yenko.net website...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/592374/crossram-corvette-intakes-and-#Post592374
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2015, 08:11:34 PM »
March 1968 Chevrolet Engineering Service Letter introducing the cross ram manifold, aka 2x4 Carburetor Conversion package.
(Jon Mello Collection)







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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2015, 12:39:31 AM »
Chevrolet drawing and instructions for some of the necessary adjustments for the cross ram. (Jon Mello Collection)


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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2015, 06:10:17 PM »
I also have an original of the Chevrolet drawing in an old GM parts counter book I received from a dealership. Has lots of interesting stuff. I've collected parts for crossrams over the years and currently have a 6-19-68 top mated to a 6-25-68 base that is in a glass top coffee table. Objects de art is how I see these units now.

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2015, 07:10:21 PM »
Objects de art is how I see these units now.

No No no, you're doing it all wrong, you need to mount it on a working engine...............then connect it to your wives blender or a washing machine or something. Now that would be a spectacle!
Nick

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2015, 02:35:57 AM »
Here is the engine bay of a '69 Z28 road car here in New Zealand I was looking at last week:



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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2015, 12:37:46 AM »
This manifold was a fantastic piece of engineering it gave us more raw HP per $$$ right out of the box than any modification than any modification we ever made .......... I could never understand why SCCA outlawed it in 1970, perhaps they were trying to save us fuel.

AL

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2015, 03:09:58 PM »
Al, did you ever get any help from Bill Howell or other Chevy people on setting up the carbs for the crossram, what jet sizes to use, etc?

BTW, where was that picture taken?
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2015, 08:24:12 PM »
Hi Al,

Where is our old crew buddy Dennis?  He was at one time, working for a large downtown Toronto Ford dealer.  Dennis was
a neat guy.

Robert

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2015, 02:33:12 AM »
  Jon 
   The picture was taken at Lawrence transmission shop in Toronto ...... We shared a large garage with a bunch of stock car racers but my friend Bob Speck would let us use his shop to build our motors. In fact I think we assembled the manifold on my kitchen table. The only help we ever got from GM was from a friend of mine who worked in the parts department at the GM plant in Oshawa, he could get us anything we wanted as long as it would fit in his lunch box.

Bob
Lost track of Dennis originally he was slated to drive the car but we ended up striking a deal with a used car salesman from
St. Catherines and as they the say rest is history. Reflecting back on our race team Churchill's words come to mind " no one has done so much with so little "

AL

Jon Mello

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 03:29:40 AM »
Crossram manifold with extra goodies for sale.  For the man with very deep pockets.

https://www.hemmings.com/parts/item/14148.html?refer=news
Jon Mello
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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2018, 05:48:11 AM »
Ouch!

Kelley W King

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2018, 04:51:34 PM »
For 85K I think I will let you guys move on this one. Odd they were in a rush to get it done for a race but the carbs were not made until about 14 weeks later.
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

WorkinProgress

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2018, 05:18:26 PM »
Crossram ad says it was being prepared for a 1968 Sebring race. I would think the matched 824 carb dates are fine. Race date was March 23, 1968.
                                                  - Warren

http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/race.php?raceid=6122

maroman

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2018, 05:39:12 PM »
Jon, does it come attached to your Z? If so I the check is in the mail.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2018, 10:23:41 PM »
Greetings JON MELLO and others,

Greatly appreciate and RESPECT all your work documenting.

New to the forum, found while researching 1969 Hurst AMX S/S cars.

If I may, on your CRG CrossRam & Carb pages, it appears
there may be a couple typo errors on Holley Carburetor Numbers ?

In the body of the text and in the Carburetor Usage Chart.

imho, ? should the 1968 Carburetor Usage Chart should read ?:

302/290 (2X4) 3906631 (proto) Holley # 3810
302/290 (2X4) 3941140 (early) Holley # 4210
302/290 (2X4) 3957859 (later) Holley # 4295

"It appears" the GM #3942595 302 CrossRam FUEL PIPE Number got typed
in error as the GM Part Number for the Holley List #4210 1st Design Carb,
whereas GM #3941140 appears correct for the Holley #4210 1st Design Carb,
and for GM #3957859 appears correct for the Holley #4295 2nd Design Carb.

Appears GM #3906631 is the correct number for the Holley #3810
which was used as a Proto-Type and starting point for the
Holley List #4210 1st Design Carb used on the CrossRam.

There are prototype CrossRam & Carbs pictures on the web
where the Carb Choke Horn List Number "4210" is ETCHED in place,
maybe "3810" is etched out, and GM #3906631 is left as-stamped.

Also, it appears that ONLY the GM and Offenhauser SBC CrossRam Intakes
were made with the "Central Aft Carb BellCrank Relief Pocket"
which allows the Driver's Side Carb to be mounted "Backwards"
allowing for "improved Fuel Air Distribution"...

Whereas the Edelbrock SBC CrossRam Intake,
as well as the Edelbrock CrossRam for the AMC V8's,
does NOT have the "Central Aft Carb BellCrank Relief Pocket"
which "dis-allows" the Driver's Side "Backwards" Carb mounting. 

May be worth mentioning another "unique" feature of the 4210 & 4295
Chevy CrossRam Holley Carbs are their "Left Handed" Center Hung
Fuel Bowl Inlets, combined with the "Backwards" Driver's Side mounting,
allows all the Linkage and Fuel Lines to be centrally located... "clean".

Also, as best as I've been able to establish, it appears that
the SBC 302 CrossRam 2nd Design Holley List 4295 Carburetors
were the 1st Holley DOUBLE PUMPER CARBS ! ? !


Not only was the Edelbrock AMC CrossRam Intake used on the 1969
Hurst AMX S/S 390 "handicapped" with "non-symmetrical" Carb mounting,
it is my belief that the OEM Holley List # 4584 Carburetors specified
were "re-numbered, re-applied, Chevy 302 throwback" List 4210 Carbs.

Nothing but the upmost respect for your work.
Only trying to learn and understand and clarify.

Thank You, C. Kevin Thomas

  CrossRams page:   http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml
Carburetors page:   http://www.camaros.org/carb.shtml
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 11:49:52 PM by PHAT69AMX »

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2018, 12:45:03 AM »
Rounded up some images of what is stamped on some Holley Carburetor Choke Towers.
Interesting to see ETCHED numbers on early versions of both the List 4210 and List 4584.
Holley seemed to be fast and furious with innovations during that 1965 to 1969 time period.
The 1965 Z-16 Chevelle List 3310 and other '65 Chevys had
the 1st Dual Line Center Inlet Fuel Bowls
as far as I can tell with research done to this point.

May I ask, does anyone have, would someone post, clear pictures of
an original un-restored Holley List 4210 Stamped Carb Choke Tower, and
an original un-restored Holley List 4295 Stamped Carb Choke Tower with a 1968 Date Code ?

Another subtle difference between List 4210 and List 4295 Holley Carburetors was
both had Roller and Slot BellCranks, but the List 4210 had a "constant radius" Slot,
where the List 4295 had a "W" shaped Slot, so 1:1 4210 versus Progressive 4295 ?


BRG Z28

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2018, 11:38:02 AM »
When did the switch take place from 4210 to 4295? I have a 7/68 4210

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2018, 05:59:56 PM »
Using GMPartsWiki, there is a GM Catalog that says it is from October 1968 at the top of the pages
but on the bottom left of the pages it says Rev. 7-1-69... so less than "definitive"... but...
it does list BOTH the 4210 (1st Design) and the 4295 (2nd Design) CrossRam Carburetors...
So maybe by at least Sep-Oct 1968 the 4295 Carburetors were "in the system"... ?
It would be nice to know for sure just when the 4295 Carburetors where phased in,
and guess the GM change to 4295's is what makes 4210 Carburetors so rare maybe.

http://www.gmpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=218307

Jon Mello

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2018, 01:51:42 AM »
I don't think you're ever going to find a "hard" date for when the 4295 replaced the 4210 carb but it would have been sometime during the summer months of '68.

I don't have a collection of photos showing 4210 and 4295 choke tower numbers so I personally can't help with that but maybe someone else here can. Some of the pictures above show numbers altered with an electric engraver. I would not call that etched, and there is no telling who altered those numbers. Maybe I'm wrong but that does not seem like something Holley would have done.

You are correct that there is an error with the '68 cross ram carb listing for '68 on our carburetor page and I will get that fixed when an opportunity presents itself. The 3810 is thought to have been a developmental carburetor while the manifold was undergoing initial development.  There would not have been a cross ram unit that left GM for public consumption with a pair of these 3810 carbs on it, in my opinion.

The '68 cross ram carbs should read...
302/290 (2X4) 3941140 (early) Holley # 4210
302/290 (2X4) 3957859 (later) Holley # 4295

You're also right about the 3942595 part number being incorrectly types for the carburetor when it was one of the fuel pipes so that is another thing for me to fix. I appreciate your help so that I can put correct information out there.

I don't believe the 4295 is the first Holley double pumper as I remember talking with GM engineer Bill Howell (part of Vince Piggins' Product Promotion Group) and he told me years ago that he was testing an 800 double pumper carb on the Penske Camaro right after the '67 Trans-Am season finished. This was before the cross ram was available and was in the Oct-Nov 1967 timeframe.  I just asked him again a couple of days ago about cross ram carburetors and double pumpers and here is his reply..."As a test engineer in the lab, I had no release responsibilities, so I did not keep track of part numbers and minor differences in many new parts being considered for release.  By the time the 2x4 package was released for production, I was in Vince's group, so I had limited interest in those details.  I knew the carbs were 600 cfm, and their double pumper characteristics.  In their production layout, they were difficult to work with, so we reversed end for end the float bowls to get the fuel fittings outboard.  This also increased the difficulty in setting the fuel levels, as in production, they were different front to rear. I would have to adjust the fuel to the bottom of the sight plug, and then raise or lower it to the correct recommended level after reinstalling the sight plugs.  Your recollection that the Marlboro test in 1967 probably involved a double pumper 800 cfm is correct in my memory (tho I have no written record for reference).  It amazes me how accurate my memory of the 1960's is compared to the 1980's.  I guess that speaks to the level of excitement I was experiencing during those times.  I hope the above information is of benefit for your research."
Jon Mello
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PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #69 on: October 20, 2018, 06:18:19 PM »
Agree that the "Engraver" marked carbs look something other than "legitimate"...
but when I saw pics of early claimed original Hurst S/S AMX CrossRam 4584 Carbs
and pictures of early claimed original Chevrolet 302 CrossRam 4210 Carbs both marked the
same way with an Engraver it made me wonder if that's what Holley may have done in '68.
At least on very early "needed now for sanctioned racing teams" at the beginning of the season where
the winter off-season R&D ran a little long leaving little time for "production versions" of those carbs.

Wonder if the 800 Double Pumper was a one-off 302 CR "R&D" Carb not produced and sold?
Or maybe if they were a pair of the short-lived Holley List 4223 850 cfm Center Squirter Carbs?

Find it very interesting where one can see the progression in the 3 carbs used on the 302 CR,
from Single Line Vac Sec, to Dual Line Center Hung Mech Sec Single Squirter, to Dual Line Double Pumper.

It's just a curiosity, specifics of 3 Holley 1st...

Holley List 1272 = ? 1st Modular Model 4150, 1957 ? debuted on a Ford
Holley List 1850 = ? 1st 600 cfm Vac Sec Modular Model 4150, also 1957 ? Ford 312
Holley List 3310 = ? 1st Holley Dual Line, 1965 Z-16 ( one of a few List #'s debuted on Chevy's in '65 )
Holley List 4295 = ? 1st Holley Double Pumper, 1968 302 CrossRam

Surprised have been unable to find those Holley "firsts" already specifically documented...
Amazed two of them are still going strong as the most popular Universal Carbs, the 1850 & 3310...

Jon Mello

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2018, 03:13:25 AM »
Might be worth talking to somebody at Holley for their opinion on the engraver markings but with this many years gone by, nobody there might be "in the know".
Jon Mello
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PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2018, 08:43:47 PM »
Past Holley contact attempts failed to turn up knowledgeable "old timers".
They "sent me" to Holman-Moody and Daytona Performance for "History" questions.

Interesting, in practice Bill Howell says they reversed the
production Cross Ram Carbs Fuel Bowls for outboard Fuel Lines
making Float Level setting more "complex" but the overall set-up
easier to work with than production "compact all central" layout.

Seems maybe Holley Center Squirter Carbs were developed prior to
Double Pumpers, "implied" by possibly a numerical order application
of Holley Carburetor List Numbers...
List 4223 being an 850? Center Squirter & List 4224 being a 660,
whereas the later Cross Ram Double Pumper Carbs are Holley List 4295.

Came across a post of yours in the "Traco Fans" thread, page 11, post 160,
with a pic of Bill Howell & Mark Donohue at Marlboro Raceway testing tires
and "the new Holley Double Pumper Carb", after the '67 TA Season,
maybe in Dec '67, as mentioned in your previous reply posted here.
From it I see where my previous post incorrectly asks about possibly a "pair"
of Center Squirters being tested then, when it was a single Carb Intake Test.

Any chance maybe the ~Dec '67 Single Carb Marborol Test was a Center Squirter ?

BRG Z28

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2018, 09:14:39 PM »
Most of the 4210 I have seen, the air horn have been drilled for center squirters. I assume this was never done by Holley.... Were the center squirters a Holley acceccery? If not who made the Holley center squirters?

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2018, 11:16:32 PM »
Yes, have seen "modified" List 4210 Holley Single Squirter Mechanical Secondary Carbs
with aftermarket "custom" Squirters with extra "tubes" that reach back to the secondary side.
see pics ( one modified 4210 pic i think is from elsewhere in this thread iirc ),last pic is a 4223 850 Ctr Squirter

Due a Google Search for Holley 4224, it's still made and available as I understand, it is a 660 CFM Center Squirter.  The 850 CFM Holley List 4223 lasted only 1 or 2 years and was then discontinued.  Can also google search it for pictures.  They have a single 4-Tube Center Mounted Pump Shooter that is located where the Air Cleaner Stud usually screw in, then there is a separate "special crossover" Air Cleaner Stud "Plate" that mounts across over top of the single 4-Tube central Squirter that sprays into all 4 Throttle Bores at once.

The Linkage for Center Squirters is the Slot & Follower Type and 1:1
The 1st Design List 4210 linkage is also the same way.
the 2nd Design List 4295 linkage is Slot & follower, but "Staged",
not 1:1, and the first true "Double Pumper".
The Center Squirters, List 4223 850 CFM, and List 4224 660 CFM,
are "Single Pumpers" but have the single centrally mounted Squirter
with 4 Discharge Tubes and squirt into all 4 Venturis at the same time.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 02:09:09 AM by Jon Mello »

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2018, 11:20:47 PM »
Or are you speaking of a 4210 modified like this pic I may have saved from earlier in this thread ?
Second vintage pic is a pair of List 4224 660 Center Squirters on an AMC Cross Ram.

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2018, 10:28:07 PM »
? The FIRST Holley Double Pumper Carburetor ?  ???

Further research unearthed a clue that as Jon Mello suggests the
Holley List 4295 GM # 3957859 2nd Design 302 Cross Ram may NOT be the first...
as he mentioned in the text accompanying the possibly Dec 1967 photograph of Bill Howell
and Mark Donohue testing a "Double Pumper" on the Trans Am Camaro at Marlboro Raceway...

GM # 3955205 Holley List 4296 is the 800 CFM (per GM SS Special HD Catalog)
Double Pumper from the '69 ZL-1 Camaro and I think the 1968 L-88 Corvette 427 ?

... Need more research, the same GM SS Special HD Catalog page 37 for 396-427-454 says:
"The stock 1 x 4 Barrel Carburetor on the large block Heavy Duty Engines
was the 850 CFM Holley with throttle bore of 1.75"."

Yet fails to provide GM No., holley List No. or if a Double Pumper...  ???

Notice that the L-88 Holley List Number is "Later / Higher" than the CR 302, but buy only 1 digit !
Yet the L-88 List 4296 800 DP GM Part No. is "Earlier / Lower" than the List 4295... hmmm...

? Anyone have information on what OEM Carburetors were used on the 1967-68-69 L-88's ?
Appears the Stock L-88 Carburetor may be an 850 CFM Double Pumper,
but have yet to find Part or List Numbers and one with 1967 or 1968 Date Codes...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 11:04:29 PM by PHAT69AMX »

Jon Mello

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2018, 03:12:38 AM »
I have not researched carburetors on your level so it will have to be someone else to come to the rescue.
Jon Mello
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PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2018, 06:00:11 PM »
Ok, Thank You, I put this in the Cross Ram thread since maybe it had the 1st Holley Double Pumper.

Holley List 4295   GM # 3957859 = Double Pumper = 1968 302 Cross Ram, 2nd Design

Holley List 4296   GM # 3955205 = Double Pumper = 1968 L-88 2nd Design, and 1969 ZL-1 427
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 06:43:23 PM by PHAT69AMX »

BRG Z28

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2018, 11:13:49 PM »
I feel lucky I was able or find two 4210 matching date carbs in the last couple of months. Is there any trick to get these carbs to run good? Everything I have read, they have a big “bog” when the secondaries kick in. I know they will not rever run as well as my 4295’s but is there any recommendation or “tricks” to get the maximum performance and drivability out of the? Thank you,

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2018, 10:31:17 PM »
Congrats on the "nice find"  8) ...
? Intend to post up a bunch of nice sharp pictures of those 4210 Carbs ?


Only from looking at vintage information, NOT from real world experience,
and something I'd NOT do to the original 4210 Base Plates...
but would do to a pair of 2nd correct replacements,
or even better fit replacements with the later "W" Slot & Roller Linkage, ? Progressive,
where the 4210 is a "Constant Radius" Slot & Roller Linkage, ? 1:1.

The "Constant Radius" can be seen Modified in vintage pictures
by grinding an "Entry Flat" at the 1st part of Slot's Front Edge,
or even fitting with a small Adjustable Plate.
This delays Secondary Opening improving non-bog chances when they open.

Understanding is for those 4210 Type Single Pumper Mechanical Secondary Carbs
the Secondary Main Air Bleeds should / must / are / will be Very Small...
So the Secondary Boosters come on real quick, and probably drip otherwise...
tough on mid-range drive-ability but is what makes that arrangement have a chance of working... imho

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2018, 09:55:12 PM »
Thank You BRG Z28 for these pictures of a pair of 1:1 Slot & Roller Mechanical Secondary Single Squirter
1968 302 Cross Ram 1st Design GM # 3941140 Holley List 4210 Carburetors with
"875" July, 5th Week, 1968 Date Codes, # 4743 and # 5806 Metering Blocks...
? 5th Week July 1968 Date Code any "clue" to when the 2nd Design List 4295 Carbs were Phased In ?...

Jon Mello

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2018, 10:13:30 PM »
Wayne Guinn's book "Camaro Untold Secrets", which you might find an interesting read, says...

Holley 3810 (which he states is p/n 3941140) was specified for use approximately Nov '67
Holley 4210 (which he states is p/n 3942595) was specified for use approximately Mar '68
Holley 4295 (which he states is p/n 3957859) was specified for use approximately May '68
Jon Mello
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BRG Z28

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2018, 02:02:14 AM »
Jon, the 4210’s that were just posted June of 1968.

PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2018, 02:23:47 AM »
Wow, using Google some places want $190 + for that book... wow... maybe can find it at the Library...
But, ah, it is a source of the Carb info that appears to contain errors maybe...
A few post back it was discussed, a Fuel Pipe Part Number found it's way in there somehow...
Yeah, who's to say how long Holley kept crankin' out 1st Design 4210's, to use up parts produced maybe?
Or maybe the was a minimum quantity ordered requirement by Holley for Chevrolet... or even SCCA...

Anyone have say a 1971 or so Holley Catalog ?  To look up the 4210 & 4295 Specs
in the Numerical Listing, mainly orig Squirter Size(s), Jets, Power Valves, Venturi & Throttle Dims...
Pretty sure both have all (4) 1-9/16" Throttle Dia 1-1/4" Dia Pri Venturi and 1-5/16" Dia Sec Venturi.

1988 is the oldest Holley Catalog I have and both 4210 & 4295 are absent from the Numerical Listing in the back...

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2018, 03:24:13 AM »
The 4210s above appear to be dated 5th week of July '68.

Sorry, I do not have any Holley catalogs but maybe someone else can help.
Jon Mello
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PHAT69AMX

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2018, 10:20:51 PM »
BRG Z28 - re-reading my previous post it is kinda a little unclear...

For your 4210 Carbs, I would consider getting another Pair of just Throttle Plate Assemblies with the
Staged or Progressive "W" Shaped Slot & Roller Bellcrank like on the 2nd Design 4295 Carbs
instead of the stock 4210 1:1 "Constant Radius" Bellcrank,
and save and leave your stock 4210 Bases unmodified.
But finding Throttle Plates with the "W" Bellcrank AND all 4 Butterflies in 1-9/16" Dia. may be difficult.
Vendors do sell only the SHAFT Assemblies with the "W" Slot Bellcrank, but for 1-11/16" Dia Butterflies.
As for getting Only Shaft Assemblies, understanding is a Throttle Plate from any ol' Holley List 1850
would be a workable Throttle Plate with 1-9/16" Dia. Throttles, but the Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank
would need to be changed out for the "W" Slot and Roller Shaft End Pieces / Bellcrank Linkage.
But the swagged on Shaft Ends would have to removed from the purchased Shafts for 1-11/16" 'Flies,
the standard shaft ends removed from the 1850 Base Plate shafts, and the Staged "W" Slot and Roller
shaft end pieces attached / welded onto the 1850 Shafts which are for 1-9/16" Dia. Throttle Plates.
Unless, someone like Daytona Performance or Braswell Carburetion would make some up for you.
Clear as mud, right ?  ;D

OG69Z

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Re: Crossram manifold
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2018, 04:52:02 AM »
Quote from: PHAT69AMX

[size=12pt
Anyone have say a 1971 or so Holley Catalog ?[/size]  To look up the 4210 & 4295 Specs
in the Numerical Listing, mainly orig Squirter Size(s), Jets, Power Valves, Venturi & Throttle Dims...
Pretty sure both have all (4) 1-9/16" Throttle Dia 1-1/4" Dia Pri Venturi and 1-5/16" Dia Sec Venturi.

1988 is the oldest Holley Catalog I have and both 4210 & 4295 are absent from the Numerical Listing in the back...

This is from the 1975 Holley Catalog:
https://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/IMG_1787-2_zpsrpnwphmh.jpg.html][/URL]
http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/1969Muscle/media/IMG_1786_zpsgkid3cxg.jpg.html][/URL]