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Author Topic: 69 wiper transmission and cowl plenum area color  (Read 11077 times)
deejaygee
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« on: June 09, 2006, 11:54:25 AM »

I'm just about to repaint my 69 Hugger Orange SS 396 car. Car has white SS stripes and ivory/black interior.

Currently, the cowl plenum area (area under cowl panel where the wiper linkage is located) is painted body color with the wiper linkage also painted body color.

How was this area painted originally? I saw a post wherein it was claimed the wiper transmission was installed after the body was painted but then I'm confused about whether or not the cowl and transmission linkage was blacked out or not?
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JohnZ
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2006, 02:33:47 PM »

I can assure you that the wiper linkage was installed WAY after the body was painted (Fisher Body painted the body, and Chevrolet installed the wiper linkage, which was received painted black from the supplier). The Fisher Body paint specs indicated that the plenum area below the wiper linkage was supposed to be blacked-out, but sometimes it was done, sometimes it wasn't. Wiper linkage any other color than black indicates that the car has been repainted without masking off the linkage.
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2006, 01:15:45 PM »

JohnZ was the wiper transmission area to be blacked out on all cars except white stripe Z's where it was whited out?
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
deejaygee
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2006, 01:46:27 PM »

Would be nice to hear from other owners of original paint cars. I was contacted by one last night where the cowl area was clearly body color and the wiper transmission ass'y was black.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2006, 09:30:53 PM »

On several unrestored 69Z, Norwood cars that I have seen, the cowl well area is body color.  At Norwood, the cowl panel was not removed when the “Z28” stripes were applied.  The strip paint over sprayed into the well area, over the phostphate black wiper linkage and sometimes over sprayed out from the front edges of the cowl panel.

Attached are pics from an unrestored 69 Pace car. I hope to meet up with the owner of this car again to further photo document this car.
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 05:38:09 AM »

At Norwood, the cowl panel was not removed when the “Z28” stripes were applied.  The strip paint over sprayed into the well area, over the phostphate black wiper linkage and sometimes over sprayed out from the front edges of the cowl panel.

Please refer to the statement by JohnZ above...  the wiper linkage was NOT painted. It was not even installed in the fisher plant.
Also the first gen assembly process is well documented by the CRG... here is the link http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Here is a pic of an unrestored original paint 04C Norwood built 69 Z.
I have MANY more of the cowl with and with out the cowl grille installed. Tell me what you want to see and I will post them.
The Vin# stamped in the top of the cowl under the grille was stamped after the white paint was applied... the stamping chipped the paint and then it appears as though a clear coat or a glue was brushed over the top where the paint was chipped to keep the chipped places from rusting.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
firstgenaddict
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2006, 11:58:19 PM »

In this one you can clearly see where the VIN stamp chipped the paint and then something was applied to protect the bare metal.
This is obviously an original paint car....
Also Note that the dash color was sprayed after the exterior paint and the stripe white out.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
deejaygee
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 04:50:36 AM »

Actually, the car got painted a couple of months ago, shortly after I made the initial posting. Cowl area and wiper transmission assemblies were done consistent with feedback from owners of original paint cars and experts such as those here online and others like Macneish. This is the only picture I have of the work in progress:

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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 07:54:09 AM »

Lookin Good   Smiley
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
RamAirDave
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 10:19:57 PM »

Based on my experience in restoration, and looking at firstgen's first pic, I would have to disagree that the wiper trans arms were phosphated.  I have always found fairly glossy paint on the arms, and the pic above shows the same.
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GaryL
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 10:26:43 PM »

Now I am really confused. It was my impression that the cowl was painted body color and then had the Z/28 stripe color painted on the cowl under the area of the cowl panel that received the stripe.  Huh
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Gary

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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 10:34:37 PM »

thats what i thought as well.
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hotrod68
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 10:37:49 PM »

Heck, Dave, the wiper transmission on my '68 is gray phosphate--go figure...chuckle. But I can't speak for the '69s. When I took my '68 apart, the cowl area was body-color turquoise overspray over the sealer and hadn't been blacked out. My 2 cents. 
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2006, 11:06:24 PM »

Heck, Dave, the wiper transmission on my '68 is gray phosphate--go figure...chuckle.

You might be correct there.  I havent built a 68 in quite a while.  All of the 69s I've done recently were clearly black paint, not Ph.  Pretty difficult to mistake the two.

As far as the cowl area, Ive found body color except for a recent black stripe 69 Z that was blacked out under the cowl panel.  Have seen an original paint 69 PC that was orange under the cowl.
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GaryL
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2006, 07:48:15 PM »

Now I am really confused. It was my impression that the cowl was painted body color and then had the Z/28 stripe color painted on the cowl under the area of the cowl panel that received the stripe.  Huh

Anyone?
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Gary

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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2006, 10:32:29 AM »

Gary you are correct... I thought that the thread did a pretty good job of illustrating the sequence of events...

From my observations of original cars & the CRG report the following is the order I believe was followed for the Black Car...
1. Body (minus front dog house) painted main color, cowl grille hanging in the pass side window and painted body color at the same time.
2. Wiper cowl blacked/ whited out
3. **Dash color painted** / firewall blackout done
4. Stripe painted on Fisher Assembly (body shell with doors and deck lid installed) in repair booth - cowl grille and spoilers striped off the body.

 *interior dash color may have been painted and masked off between 1 & 2 however there is some black overspray on top of the White in the wiper cowl which means either there was some black touch up after the white was sprayed (very likely as it is only at the base of the windshield around where the wiper transmission posts come through the upper cowl support) or the black on the dash was sprayed after the white (not too likely as the overspray does not appear to be velvet textured... it appears more like the 30 or 60 deg gloss black)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 12:39:35 PM by firstgenaddict » Logged

James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
JohnZ
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2006, 02:50:27 PM »

The upper instrument panel was painted in the second prime booth (before the body got any exterior color), baked, then masked off before exterior color was sprayed. See the "Fisher Paint Shop" section at:

        http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 06:22:56 PM »

John,
I had read that and fully believe that is what took place... I was theorizing on the3 black overspray on the white in the wiper cowl...
I guess it was sprayed near the base of the windshield and around the wiper arm posts in order to ensure that there would not be white showing through the gaps around them.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
Dave69x33
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2006, 09:10:49 PM »

Sorry if I miss spoke about the wiper linkage being "phosphate black wiper linkage".  Mine had been painted gloss black long before I got my car, along with about everything else under the hood.  As I stripped the paint off the linkage, small hidden sections (from the paint) on the linkage appeared to be more of a dull phosphate like coating.  On the unrestored cars I have looked at, they too appear to be a dull black paint or phosphate.  Any way, I painted my linkage between a 40% - 60% gloss black.

I hope to see the above mentioned unrestored 69 Pace car again at a local show in two weeks.  I'll study it closely and report back with pictures.   


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GaryL
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2006, 09:52:13 PM »

  The strip paint over sprayed into the well area, over the phostphate black wiper linkage and sometimes over sprayed out from the front edges of the cowl panel.

This is what confused me. It sounded as though only the stripe paint going thru the cowl grill openings got stripe color on the cowl.
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Gary

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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2006, 10:29:20 PM »

The wiper grille was striped off the car.
The cowl top was white/blacked out before the car left fisher's paint lines before the grille was even striped.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
KurtS
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2006, 11:23:45 PM »

To summarize:
The cowl plenum should be body color (or stripe color on Z's and pacers). I've seen only 1 or 2 cars that were blacked out, John's being the only one that comes to mind.
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Kurt S
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2006, 12:22:31 AM »

Im pretty sure Ive posted these before. Original paint black stripe Z that was blacked out in the cowl area.





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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2006, 08:08:19 AM »

The strip paint over sprayed into the well area, over the phostphate black wiper linkage and sometimes over sprayed out from the front edges of the cowl panel.

This is what confused me. It sounded as though only the stripe paint going thru the cowl grill openings got stripe color on the cowl.
Gary...Please do not credit me with the above statement.... I copied and pasted it from the 5th entry in this thread... it should be attributed to the author...Dave69X33.
I was merely illustrating that the statement was not correct and that the CRG report should be referred to.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
GaryL
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2006, 09:59:54 PM »

It didn't really matter to me who said it. I just confused me. Pretty easy to do. Grin
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Gary

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Mark
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 07:52:42 AM »

Yes, the whole car was painted body color, and then the area on top of the cowl was painted stripe color by Fisher.  They were then suppossed to black out the area under the cowl (where the wiper linkage is), but for the most part they didn't seem to do it.  The cowl panel itself was painted and striped (f required) separate from the car by Fisher, and wasn't installed until much later on the GM side of the plant, after the wiper linkage was installed.
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Mark C.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2006, 11:46:22 AM »

To: All,

Again, sorry for any confusion I may have caused when I made reference to "phosphate black wiper linkage", and any reference to Z28 stripe color overspray onto the wiper linkage.  Thanks for keeping me straight! I should have done my homework and re-read the CRG research report (RR) on the 1st Gen Camaro Assy. Process.  I forgot that the "Z28" stripes were painted by Fisher Body on the cowl vent panel, trunk lid, and spoiler (ref, Color System, in the Fisher Body - Paint Shop Operations). I had assumed that they were painted in the Chevy Plant toward the end of the assembly line process as outlined in the Chevrolet Assembly Instruction Manual (AIM), pp. 474  - 475.  However, please note in the second paragraph, it states....."Z-28, Z-10, or Z11 stripes or black rear end panel or rockers, were masked and sprayed in .....including the cowl vent panel; the spoilers were painted and striped separate from the body and were installed before the body went back downstairs to the Trim Shop". 

The RR goes on to state in the first paragraph, in the section, Chevrolet Assembly - Trim Line Operations Details, when the body subassembly left the Fisher Plant and entered the Chevrolet Assy. Plant, "The cowl vent panel was removed and placed in the back seat". One of the first steps the Chevy Assy. Plant did was to glue the end seal on the underside of the vent panel, install the front rubber seal, then attach it to the body after the wiper linkage and motor was installed.

Given this “recommended” assembly sequence outlined in the RR, we can assume that the actual assembly process followed is based on what see on survivor, or unrestored “documented” cars.  Assembly sequences often changed during a production run if it saved time, cost, or improved quality and thru-put.  This is what makes our hobby fun, yet challenging.  It’s like trying to find the Holly Grail - it’s elusive.   

The pictures we post of unrestored cars are a great way for us to see what actually happened.  I recommend that we try to also state the VIN number and/or build date to “date stamp” our pictures.

The pics I posted are from a true survivor, 69 Pace Car.  This Camaro’s build date is “03D”, VIN #NOR283787.  Note there is no paint on the back body shims.  Next time I see this car, I’ll look with an inspection mirror at the end seal for evidence of overspray paint, indicating a repaint: however, the owner told me that his car is a survivor.

Here are some interesting questions:  Were the string of 69 Pace Cars treated differently when the stripes were painted? I must assume that the run of 3675 replicas, (we know not all were assembled sequentially or at one time) put a strain on the In-Line repair booth to paint the Z28 stripes.  Painters could not take much time because they also had other Z28’s and SS’s to process in the daily mix.  Did Fisher Body decide to start “fixturing” the cowl vent on the body cowl, quickly mask it off, and then paint stripes?  Did they begin following this modified sequence sometime during the Pace Car builds on other Camaros?

I have been told by some very knowledgeable Camaro restorers in our hobby that Norwood painted some Z28 stripes with the cowl vent panel installed on the body, and the stripe color did overspray onto the body color in the vent well area.  I was told that painters were supposed to use foam to block unsightly overspray from coming out from the front edge of the cowl vent.  Obviously, they did not. Quality was not a big deal then as it is today.  Some painters skipped the foam to get their tasks done faster which gave them more sit time. 

There is evidence (thanks to pictures) that some cowl vent wells were blacked out.  See RamAirDave pics.  There is also evidence that Z28’s built in Van Nuys did a neater job painting stripes and the cowl vent area.  Refer to page 474 in the AIM for the UPC Z28 option, where it states, “Cowl vent grille area will be painted stripe color by Fisher Body”.  I was told that Van Nuys removed the cowl vent and painted the cowl vent well and the top side of the cowl panel, out to the edge that interfaces with the firewall.  This is similar to what is shown in the pics RamAirDave posted.  I have 35MM film pictures of a Van Nuys built, survivor 69 Z28 with the stripe paint work out to the firewall. 

RamAirDave, which plant built your Camaro?  What is the build date VIN number?

This is all great discussion and informative.  I would love to see more pics of survivor cars if anyone out there has any!

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hotrod68
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2006, 10:20:06 PM »

Dave--the wiper linkage in that pic looks like gray phosphate like my '68 was...now I'M confused! chuckle. Ain't this fun?
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2006, 10:40:30 PM »

Hotrod68:  No, it wasnt phosphate.  Every one that Ive come across was clearly painted.

Dave69x33:  that is an 07A Norwood car
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JohnZ
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2006, 09:45:45 AM »

Here's my original-paint 02D Norwood Z/28; the plenum area below the cowl vent grille was shot with Fathom Green over the white stripe paint; the green has flaked a bit in several areas, and if you look closely you can see white underneath it where it has flaked. The wiper linkage is gloss black, as you'd expect. Many Van Nuys cars show stripe color paint all the way forward to the top of the firewall.

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KurtS
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2006, 10:21:18 PM »

John, my mistake, I thought we had discussed your cowl plenum being blacked out.

Dave69x33,
RamAirDave's pics are of a black striped car, so the plenum is painted black as expected.

I'd say John's article is accurate, the assembly process as described is how they made the cars. Original cars confirm this.

Pacers would not have had much an impact on processing, since they were spread out over 2-3 months.

Yes, that pacer is very original. It was here in MI in the original family. Looks like it's been sold or someone (Jim?) moved.

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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2006, 12:15:51 AM »

I have some pics of an original paint 69 PC somewhere.  I'll dig through them and see if there is a pic of the cowl area.

I remember that it was masked off orange, like Dave69x33's pics.

I've only dealt with a few original paint cars, and none were blacked out like JohnZ has said the were "supposed" to, but often were not.
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2006, 07:11:11 AM »

I don't think you can say that a car with black stripes had the lower cowl area blacked out.  Thats just overspray from painting the top of the cowl area, which all cars with the Z28 stripes got.  In this case the paint just happens to be black.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2006, 08:28:54 PM »

Hello everyone.  I met up with the owner (Jim Stegemiller in Pendleton, IN) this past Sunday at a car show.  Jim has the original, unrestored 69 Pace Car that I mention earlier in this discussion.  Jim is the 2nd owner and purchased the car from family, who were the original owners of the car.  I confirmed that the car has been in his family since new and is indeed a survivor car and had not been repainted. 

The cowl vent well area was painted body color (white).  The cowl vent was on the body when the stripes were painted, with stripe color (orange) overspray in the well area, as confirmed in my previous pics.  The wiper linkage was painted black, which confirms the assembly process we have learned about (and I mistakenly got the sequence out or order in one of my previous replies. P.S I pulled my wiper linkage out this evening and painted it black!!...ha ha).  See attached pics of this Pace Car of the cowl vent area.

Interesting side notes:  There was some mismatch on the stripe line continuation from the cowl vent down onto the hood (due to being painted in separate booths?).  The LH front fender peak line does not match up with the peak line on the door. The fender was approx. ¼” to 3/8” higher than the door, yet the D96 fender pin striping was painted straight down the fender onto the door. This Pace Car replica never had the Indy 500 decals.
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 08:57:48 AM »

Differnet booths? NOT at Norwood
Try Different buildings... the front "doghouse" was painted at Chevrolet Assembly not at Fisher body... also the cowl grille was not striped while on the car... it was off of the car... if you were to remove the cowl grille on the pace car there would be orange in places that overspray would not have been able to reach.
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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2006, 11:06:28 AM »

The door-to-fender fit misalignment with a correctly-aligned D96 pinstripe is very common; the pinstripe was applied at the end of the Final Line, long after the front sheet metal was installed, with a fixture the length of the car that clamped in place and had steel guide rails on it for the Beugler pinstriping guns. Regardless how poor the door-to-fender fit was, the pinstripe would always match from the door to fender.
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2006, 01:16:07 PM »

Kinda like this?

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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2006, 10:05:16 AM »

Yup, like that.  Smiley
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