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Author Topic: 1967 Small Journal 350  (Read 5675 times)
erikjohn
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« on: July 27, 2011, 09:57:44 AM »


http://www.camaros.org/askcrg-archives.shtml

The answer given in question 11 implies that there is no such thing.  I myself have a 67 RS/SS built in Nov 66 and I discovered that it had small journals when I was doing the rebuild on it 20 years ago when I ordered the larger journal bearings and they did not fit properly.  My car is all numbers matching(Vin-Eng-Trans-Rear Axle), I have full documentation of the car including the POP.

Has this issue been revisited as I really don't find much on the internet on it and the general consensus seems to be that all 350 are large journal.

Thanks
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
CNorton
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 10:36:45 AM »

Did you verify the stroke?  A 3.48" stroke crankshaft with small journals would indeed be a rare object for factory production but one routinely turned out by race shops.  There was a point in time when Super Stock racers turned down the main journals of 350 crankshafts to the 327 bearing size in the search for more power.  Of course, that business is still thriving and they're now down to using Honda rod bearing sizes for the same reason.
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KurtS
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 10:58:01 AM »

It's been revisited several times. Never seen a factory small journal 350.
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Kurt S
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erikjohn
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 11:24:46 AM »

It's been revisited several times. Never seen a factory small journal 350.
Without trying to be argumentative but this an honest question.  If you did see one how would you know it was factory? Since it wasn't documented as such but the fact that there have been reports of them indicates something.

My car was completely unmolested when it came to my family back in the mid 80's, my dad was the third owner and it was purchased from a friend of a friend so we knew the cars history quite well.  I did the rebuild in 1988 and haven't touched it since.  When it was done the engine had never been rebuilt or touched prior to that which was obvious when I took the engine apart.  It was definitely a 350, I started measured everything when realized after torquing down the bolts there was a bunch of play in the journals.  Plus the VIN stamped on the engine matches everything else on the car and it is a true RS/SS so that also makes it a genuine 350.

At the time I was told by a local expert(prior to all of the internet experts) that it was an "experimental" motor that only came in the the early 350 RS/SS models but I have not seen anything online or anywhere that verifies this.  The engine build date is Nov 8th 1966 (V1108MS) and the first cars available to public were Sept 26th 1966 which I guess means the components were built a month prior to that.

I must suspect that there are more of these factory small journal 350's out there but I just find it very unusual that this has not been more well documented or even officially somehow verified by the experts.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:39:45 PM by erikjohn » Logged

1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
erikjohn
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 01:27:17 PM »

As I try to dig further into this I also see that in the GM Spec book for the 67 Camaro, page 33 of 212 indicates that there was a a revision to the crankshaft information in Jan 1967 however it does not show specifically what info was changed with regards to crankshafts only that there was a revision.  It would be interesting to see the manual pre-revision to see what actually changed.  From my perspective the obvious assumption would be they revised the journal size of the crank thus the need for revision.

The manual can be downloaded here:
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-heritage-archive/docs/Camaro/1967-Chevrolet-Camaro.pdf
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
1968 Z28
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 03:46:23 PM »

Do you have the casting numbers located on the crank?  Do you know for sure whether it is forged or cast? 

Also, you mentioned that you rebuilt the engine, did you send the crankshaft out to a machine shop?  If so, did they turn the journals?
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Jerry G.

Z28-1968-07C-Norwood
Ermine White, Red Std. Interior
2nd. Owner, 38,000 miles
erikjohn
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 04:17:30 PM »

No I don't have the number cause didn't think to do that at the time.  I can't say for sure if forged or cast because it was 25 years ago last time I laid eyes on it but the block is part of a numbers matching car so I assume it is forged as were all 67 350 cranks.

I did not have any work done to the crank, it never left my garage.  The only work I had done was to the double hump heads.  I had a 3 angle valve job and had hardened seats installed.  I also replaced the original flat tops with 9:1 pistons so it would run on 87 pump gas.  I also installed a crane 290H fireball cam and a new double roller timing chain.  I did not replace the cam bearings.

When I pulled it apart it everything looked stock, no aftermarket parts.  The outside of the engine did not have any aftermarket parts either.  Had original carb, intake and exhaust manifolds.  I wouldn't think someone would go through the trouble of grinding down the crank mains and do nothing else to the engine, that makes no sense.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that a SJ350 was made other than lack of something in writing from GM(that still exists).  It also makes sense that the first 350s were small journals, since it was based on the 327 block and the casting numbers were the same.  In fact I would say it is 100% sure that the first 350's were small journal it just wasn't documented that they were put into production cars.  But it was a first year car, a first year motor, they were making additions on fly and adding options through early 1967, I don't see how this is that hard to fathom.  Clearly they rushed it to production because of the addition of the rear stab bar that came later.

I need someone to tell me what it would take to rewrite the history books.  I am confident I have the real deal, I just need to know how to prove it and I would love to be the guy to do it.
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
tmodel66
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 05:40:23 PM »

Been working on cars for 35 years and never saw one but good luck.
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Daniel  
'69 SS 350/4 speed  Fathom Green--POP
erikjohn
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 06:06:31 PM »

Many years ago the world was also flat before it was round. Wink
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
erikjohn
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 06:39:55 PM »

I am calling out to all nay-sayers and experts.  I am in Orlando-FL area.  I will seriously tear apart this engine and display for any expert that will come to check it out to put this to bed.  Please put the call out.


PM me with any serious inquires of someone that can validate this engine.

My email is erikjohn@hotmail.com

Thanks all.

EJ
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
IZRSSS
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 08:02:23 PM »

Stories that begin with...my completely unmolested car that was bought from a friend of a friend always scare me. No telling what was done to the car by the time your family took position of it in the mid 80's. Please keep in mind that CRG has the largest and most extensive data base in the world for First Gen Camaros. If there was such an animal it would be on here. The quote below is but one sample of many you will find if you take the time to search the web, which BTW is identical to what you found here.

The year 1967 also saw the introduction of the 350ci engine. This now classic configuration utilized a 4.000in bore with a 3.480in stroke, and has probably become the most common engine size. Along with the introduction of the 350 came the standardization on the "big main journals".

I would be very interested to see pics of the engine stamp, rear, tran. and vin# of the car...
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erikjohn
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 08:19:09 PM »

Stories that begin with...my completely unmolested car that was bought from a friend of a friend always scare me. No telling what was done to the car by the time your family took position of it in the mid 80's. Please keep in mind that CRG has the largest and most extensive data base in the world for First Gen Camaros. If there was such an animal it would be on here. The quote below is but one sample of many you will find if you take the time to search the web, which BTW is identical to what you found here.

The year 1967 also saw the introduction of the 350ci engine. This now classic configuration utilized a 4.000in bore with a 3.480in stroke, and has probably become the most common engine size. Along with the introduction of the 350 came the standardization on the "big main journals".


I hear you, and that is why I am here at this site with my request.  I will tear my car down I just need to be put in touch with the right people that have the credentials and knowledge to be able to make a judgement.  No body here has given me anything that convinces me otherwise other than they haven't seen it, or it's not in the books etc.  Well the books were revised, several times and no one has the original sheets.  I have been a car guy for over 25 years myself and I didn't just fall into a car that I am trying to justify.  I am not here to cause waves or ruffle feathers but I need some closure on this.  The fact that my car is so well documented and was previously untouched I feel that I have to pursue this further.  I found the small journals myself prior to having any knowledge that it was even a possibility.  Again please see my information and email me with an further information you can provide.

Thank you.
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
IZRSSS
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 08:22:24 PM »

Who knows...given the build date of your car you might be on to something. If it's possible post a pic of the Cowl Tag & Engine Pad.
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erikjohn
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »

Cowl tag
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
erikjohn
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 09:01:07 PM »

Protectoplate
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1967 RS/SS GG/Blk Int - 4sp - Posi - CC - IC - PBR - #Mtch w/POP & Dlr Ship & Wty Info
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