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Author Topic: 1967 Cowl Tag Date and Engine Build Date  (Read 8473 times)
RC
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« on: April 10, 2006, 10:22:28 PM »

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 02:01:36 AM by RC » Logged
67ss350camaro
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 07:04:58 AM »

It would help if I could see all of the data on your car to give a better opinion.  With that being said, and with what little data you have given, something does not sound right.  CRG's data base has over 5200 67's in it and I don't remember any with what you are describing.
If you want a better opinion, I would need to have pictures of the engine stamp, cowl tag and the vin tag.
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Daniel
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67 RS/SS 350 auto (owned since 81.)
97 V6 5-speed Coupe (work car ordered new)
2012 1LS (V6 6-speed) Coupe (new work car)
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KurtS
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2006, 12:15:32 AM »

It could be just a date misstamp by Fisher Body. That's what it kinda looks like, but that is pretty rare and the #'s just don't line up right.
I agree with Daniel, pics would help.

It appears to be a IPC replica, probably ordered by the dealer after they were no longer available. Or it could just be a car with the exact same colors and options. Smiley
What's the code on the transmission?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 08:47:50 AM by KurtS » Logged

Kurt S
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2006, 09:14:18 AM »

Unless, its possible the engine was changed before it left the plant due to some terminal problem with the first engine.  The Norwood Camaros had to be driven off the line several miles to the rail head, I suppose a few could have not made it?
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Mike
Owned new (and still have stashed away) LOL
1966 Impala SS396
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1972 El Camino SS350
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67ss350camaro
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 02:27:25 PM »

I still need pictures to know for sure what you have.  None of the numbers agree (go together), except for the maybe the vin# and engine code.
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Daniel
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67 RS/SS 350 auto (owned since 81.)
97 V6 5-speed Coupe (work car ordered new)
2012 1LS (V6 6-speed) Coupe (new work car)
My Camaro
67ss350camaro
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2006, 06:11:24 PM »

RC,
  The axle may be too close to call for a 04A built car.  I was mostly talking about the cowl tag, vin# and engine code.  The engine code looks fine for the vin#, but both the vin# and the engine code do not agree with the cowl tag.
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Daniel
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67 RS/SS 350 auto (owned since 81.)
97 V6 5-speed Coupe (work car ordered new)
2012 1LS (V6 6-speed) Coupe (new work car)
My Camaro
ogbean
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2006, 10:39:47 AM »

Is that clear silicone insie the rivets that hold the trim tag on?
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David

1968 L30 4spd Huh, Rally Green, White Vinyl Top, Ivory Houndstooth Interior (716), D55 console, D91 Stripe
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2006, 04:49:44 PM »

Yes there should be seam sealer in the rivets, i believe it was black in color... I may be mistaken. Did the tag get removed or were the rivets just cleaned out?
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David

1968 L30 4spd Huh, Rally Green, White Vinyl Top, Ivory Houndstooth Interior (716), D55 console, D91 Stripe
KurtS
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 01:50:57 PM »

Not sure what the fear is in having the numbers out there. Most ebay ads have the numbers listed, or go to a car show....

To answer the question, I was able to dig the pics out of my internet temp directory. After comparing the tag pic to the many others I have, my opinion is that it is not original. Sad
Which explains why the #'s don't line up, but not how the tag got there.

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Kurt S
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 01:57:14 AM »

There are anomalies, but this tag does not appear to be one. That's after comparing it to literally thousands of other tags. Reproduction tags have been around for decades. Maybe the tag was missing, who knows.

"The pacecar contact suspects it is an 05A that has been mis-stamped."
And did they state whether or not they thought the tag was original? I had another pacecar member state to me that they did not think it was original.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 02:36:17 AM by KurtS » Logged

Kurt S
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2006, 08:55:59 PM »

Yes, I did. And it's always been our policy not to disclose details on why a tag looks like a repro tag. It's not because it's too clean.

Out of 11,000+ cars in the database, not one has a build date that's off by a month.
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Kurt S
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67ss350camaro
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2006, 06:56:55 AM »

RC,
  I was skeptical when you posted just the data, but once I saw the picture of the tag, I knew what the problem was, the cowl tag.  Your cowl tag is very obviously a repro, it does not conform to any 67 NOR tags (the date code is only one of many problems).  I would bet anyone with a picture of your tag and other NOR tags can pick out problems with your cowl tag.  I understand your position (no one wants to hear that they have a repro cowl tag), but our opinion is based on data, not assumptions.
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Daniel
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67 RS/SS 350 auto (owned since 81.)
97 V6 5-speed Coupe (work car ordered new)
2012 1LS (V6 6-speed) Coupe (new work car)
My Camaro
Rich
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2006, 07:08:15 AM »

RC:  If you *know* that the tag had original paint on it 21 years ago, and this is the same tag, then you have a degree of comfort that you cannot expect us to have.  One anomaly is an anomaly, filed away as such.  Two anomalies raise additional questions.  Multiple anomalies lead to other thoughts. Since evaluation of a car can sometimes be taken personally, even when it isn't meant that way, I think we should take this off-line to better explain the concerns to you.  If you want to re-start the thread at that point, your call.  Thanks, Rich
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2006, 09:37:32 AM »

RC,

I NEVER get involved in discussions on Trim Tag authenticity because there are enough guys out there that know the facts and can report as such. And, as a matter of fact, Kurt is one of the best, as is Daniel.

That being said, when you first posted a picture of your tag, I knew that it wasn't factory, but didn't say anything. I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news for you, so I chose to leave it alone. I learned long ago that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Although I can understand and appreciate your wanting to believe the tag to be correct, due to the fact that you've owned the car for so many years, you have to realize that even in the early 80's, there were people manufacturing reproduction tags for these cars, and reproduction Trim Tags, even today, are fairly easy to spot if you've seen a lot of them over the years. I won't go into details, but there are subtle nuances in the originals that are left off the reproductions.

Fisher Body manufactured hundreds of cars a day and as a general rule, didn't make this kind of mistake. Yes, mistakes were made with Trim Tags, but things like an incorrect paint code, or an incorrect interior code (of which my car has), but not an incorrect date code. You have to understand the process of which these tags were produced to realize why this type of mistake wouldn't happen, and believe me, Kurt knows.

I'm sure no one here will ever be able to pursuade you that your tag is incorrect, just as you won't ever be able to pursuade the guys here at the CRG that it IS correct. But the most important thing is that you enjoy your car no matter what and be willing to listen. Most of the guys associated with this site have 40 years or more of experience with First Generations Camaro's, and have a lot of knowledge to offer. They also value YOUR input as well, so please don't take all this personally. I would hate to see you frustrated to the point where you no longer post.

Keep the lines of communications open with these guys even if it's NOT on the forum!!

Ed
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PACE&Z2869
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2006, 12:29:02 AM »

Hello everyone. I have no opinion about the trim tag being original or not, however I do have a question.  It was stated that repo tags were being manufactured as early as the early eighties. Could the members who have commented about this particular tag provide myself and others w/ some info to lookout for when looking at a tag on a potential purchase?

Also, with the value of these cars being what they are now,  I see why someone who is dishonest would want a repo tag to represent a car that isn't correct.  However in the early 80's, (and correct me if i'm wrong please) these cars were still affordable and I would think that repo tag would have done someone little good.  I would include highly desireable cars (pacecars, Z/28's copo's) in the affordable group as well, in the early 80's.
I look forward to opinions on this statement.

When I purchased my 69 Z/28 3 years ago, I put alot of faith in the X77 on the trim tag. I'm sure other people do as well. I also put faith in the DZ stamp on the block. I was certain my car was a genuine z/28. How do I know? If someone was going to fake this car, they wouldn't have put air flow research heads on the engine. They wouldn't have painted it green when it was originally Daytona yellow. The cars VIN # was right where it was supposed to be by the oil filter under 1/4 inch of grime. There is X7 written in grease pencil behind the rear seat on the body on the passenger side. ( I'm assuming that means x77) I may have gotten lucky, the VIN and the X7 I didn't find until after I owned the car.

In case anybody is wondering, the Airflow Research heads are gone. I did a complete rotisorie restoration on the whole car and yes it's back to 76 76 Daytona yellow w/ black stripes!!
       
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PACE&Z2869
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »

Pace&Z2869,

Regarding your first question on how to tell a reproduction tag from a factory one, it's an unwritten rule on most forums that this information not be discussed for a fairly obvious reason. We don't want the people reproducing these things to get better at it!

As for your second question, you are quite correct. In the early 80's no one even knew what X codes were, or 4P 3L, etc... on Trim Tags. Therefore why go through the trouble of reproducing a tag to fake a car. However, tags were being reproduced for a competely different reason. In the mid 80's there was a guy that used to advertise in Hemmings that would make a new tag for your car so you could change the interior or exterior color. This was directed mostly to the Corvette guys as they were the target at the time, but he could make tags for Tri-5 Chevy's as well. I owned a 57 Chevy Bel Air in the mid 80's and was thinking about changing the color from the original white (BOOOORING) to something else. At the time, changing colors was kind of frowned upon since it now made the car "modified". At the time, the "Classic Chevy Club" (THE club for tri-5 Chevy's), deducted points for changing interior or exterior colors. I believe the Corvette groups also did the same. Therefore, if one could change colors and still show the correct code on the Trim Tag, no points would be deducted.

Times have changed since then and changing tags to match your "new" color has gone by the wayside! Now people are changing tags to bilk unsuspecting buyers. It's become BIG business and there have been equally, BIG problems when these tags are exposed. One guy got a punch in the nose at a Corvette show a few years ago!! So you can see where things can get ugly.

If you have any concerns or the originallity of your tag, post pictures of the VIN and the Trim Tag here or on one of the other Camaro WEB sites and the experts will be able to help you out.

Ed
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PACE&Z2869
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2006, 11:02:57 PM »

Very well explained bertfam, Thank you. I know my cars are what they are. I have compared my Z11 trim tag to many other Z11 cars and it looks to me to be original. Other clues surface also when you do a restoration. I recall stripping paint and gunk from deep in the cowl area and under all that was some slight orange overspray from when they painted the stripes. Many other items as well. My Z/28 is correct for the reasons listed prior. I could see how someone who doesn't know the hobby as well as we do could easily be taken advantage of. Take care.
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PACE&Z2869
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2006, 12:58:55 AM »

Very well stated dudes! I havent been in the camaros scene but 3 or 4 years now. But in those 3 or 4 years I have soaked up a few things. Including a few differences in repo and real trim tags... small ones... but those are the one that count!! And also... always be thankful for others opinions... even if they do upset and/or dissapoint you!  Deep down the hobby is all based on the enjoyment of our cars, no mater what it is, as long as you enjoy it!
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David

1968 L30 4spd Huh, Rally Green, White Vinyl Top, Ivory Houndstooth Interior (716), D55 console, D91 Stripe
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