Author Topic: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built  (Read 2089 times)

carlosrspoa

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Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« on: June 24, 2021, 08:57:28 PM »
Hi guys, I'm new here, did a bit of research before posting but still have a lot of doubts.
I'm initiating this new topic under originality but it mixes with other categories.
I live in Brazil and came across a '69 Camaro Coupe, built in Venezuela. Needs total restoration but it is in decent shape. Im in the process of buying it, pending only a phisical inspection (likely to happen early next week as the car is 2,500 miles from me) and your oppinion/answers to my questions here.
A little bit of the information i could get from the car so far:
Dash Vin and Cowl tag match, picture attached.
Engine stamp matches VIN: 1JC109304   TII05HP
Auto Transmission, couldnt get the stamping/pictures yet.
12bolt rear end, axle stamp says: ?N 0402 G1. First letter has a dent over it, ressembles a B, D or P (based on my reserach i believe it will be a BN, 3.55 ratio).
Car is currently painted red, it is obviously not the original color as you can see signs of the old paint, that to me (based on 69 color options) resembles Burgundy (code 67). The owner has a Venezuelan document (only documentation available) dated 1985 saying it is "Marrón" (brown in spanish). I suspect it could be a mistranslation of Maroon (burgundy)as the little pieces of old paind dont look like Burnished Brown (code 61), the only '69 color that could be translated to "Marrón" (brown).
Car has black interior which matches the  "711" code on the cowl tag.
It has the RS package, drum brakes all over, power windows, AC.
Drivetrain is reported to be original, i couldnt get pictures of the cast dates to confirm, will probably get only at the phisical inspection.

That being said, my questions:
1 - Is there any place I could find/request information about this car, how it left the factory, invoice, bill of sale,... Something like the Chevy Muscle Docs or anything similar for Venezuelan cars? Im afraid of the answer but have to ask.
2 - The HP engine suffix (L48) and the auto trans make this drivetrain a special order, right? Its true that the drivetain could be original and left the factory that way I suppose.
3 - Can anyone decode the  926-99006 that appears on the cowl tag? I suppose its a DuPont paint code but couldnt find any reference to that. Can it be anyhow linked to Burgundy or Burnished Brown?
4 - Without having the cowl tag info and RPO list I believe i'll be "free" to choose the exterior/trim of this car when restoring it but anyone can guess how it possibly left the factory? (exterior trim at least, any stripes, vinyl top, badges/scripts, anything else apart form the RS conventional stuff). A picture of the "guess car" would help me to imagine it when ready.
5 - Being a car assembled in Venezuela I know its rare (not necessarily more valuable) but, if original as reported, how rare is this combination? I'm asking that because if its "super rare" i will try to restore it to original, if not I might make some upgrades, specially on brakes and engine performance.
6 - Last but not least, what would you recommend me to inspect when I'm face to face to it next week? Anything that could help me find out its origins, answer the questions and help me on the restoration?

Anything else I'm missing?

Many thanks for the patience to get to the end of this message and thank you in advance for your assistance.

Regards,

GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2021, 09:09:15 PM »
There is some information on Camaros that were built in Venezuela on CRG:

http://www.camaros.org/foreign.shtml

carlosrspoa

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2021, 09:25:58 PM »
There is some information on Camaros that were built in Venezuela on CRG:

http://www.camaros.org/foreign.shtml

Many thanks. I've seen that and that's where one of the questions come from, about the HP suffix on the engine stamp, L48 instead of the LM1 that you would expect for a '69 low VIN from Caracas.

Thanks once again.

GMAD_Van Nuys

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2021, 09:36:16 PM »
There was a previous posting on CRG in 2020 about a Camaro that was sold on Hemmings that was built in Venezuela and the seller posted some documentation that may interest you:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18115.0

KurtS

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2021, 10:19:09 PM »
1. None known.
2. HP was never used. Probably HR.
    I doubt the axle is original. Too late for the car.
3. Yup, Dupont code, but I've had problems translating them. First time I've seen that code.
4. You'll find the original paint on car. Between that and the Dupont code, that tells the original color. If it was maroon/burgundy, http://69pace.com/paint1969burgundy.htm. But it may have been a non-Camaro color. Code 67 burgundy = 927-97213.
5. You can easily do upgrades that would look stock.
6. Rust. Ask about owner history - that's your best chance of getting the car's history.
Kurt S
CRG

carlosrspoa

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2021, 11:27:48 PM »
1. None known.
2. HP was never used. Probably HR.
    I doubt the axle is original. Too late for the car.
3. Yup, Dupont code, but I've had problems translating them. First time I've seen that code.
4. You'll find the original paint on car. Between that and the Dupont code, that tells the original color. If it was maroon/burgundy, http://69pace.com/paint1969burgundy.htm. But it may have been a non-Camaro color. Code 67 burgundy = 927-97213.
5. You can easily do upgrades that would look stock.
6. Rust. Ask about owner history - that's your best chance of getting the car's history.

Thank you Kurt!

1 - Thats what I was afraid of! ;D
2 - I'll ask the seller to pencil transfer the stamp to a paper and will post here tomorrow. The picture he sent me is blur but it really looks like a P and not a R. I've seen somewhere that the HP suffix was an option to be used with  L48 and HD clutch, that's why I tought it could be really a P, meaning a special order or a mix up of L48 and auto trans at the assempbly line. Anyway, on a visual inspection I guess it will be difficult to tell if its a LM1 or a L48 as both use the same block and 4 barrel carbs, isnt? 
The axle stamp translates to 2nd April 1968 isnt (0402)? You mean its too late for the car because the early VIN means you would expect an eralier rear end? Any casting marks I can inspect? What would be your guess on the build date for the 109304 VIN?
3 - Thank you!
4 - The little pieces of old paint I got pictures really look like Burgundy. I guess that once dismantled for restoration I'll find better indications. Will trouble you guys again when I get to that stage. You mean that at the Caracas assembly line the car could be painted with a non Camaro Color, none of those listed for '69 model? Would it be a Chevy color? Or could be any other color?
5 - Great!
6 - "Rustwise" its not that bad, but I'll definetly take a close look and not rely only on the pictures. I've asked about its history, the current owner is the first owner in Brazil, he did nothing to it, its like it came from Venezuela. He imported from the allegedly second owner, that got it already painted red from the first owner and the only document he has is that one I mentioned (a venezuelan registration letter, stating the vin, the partial vin engine stamp # and the "Marrón" color). The second owner says the first owner  told him the car was stock and the original color was a reddish brown thats why the document states brown (marrón). I've linked that to the little signs of burgundy and the possible mistranslation of Maroon. But that's all on the history. Everyone says the drivetrain is original.
 
Many thanks once again, hope this is the beginning of the ressurection process of a piece of history of the muscle cars.

Regards,




KurtS

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 04:39:17 AM »
The axle is 5 months after the engine and other LM1/M35's from Caracas had 10 bolt axles. Hard to say for sure, I have limited data.
Color - I've not seen anything that required the colors to be US colors.
I'd be chatting with those prior owners. :)
Kurt S
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carlosrspoa

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Re: Originality - '69 Camaro Venezuela Built
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 01:15:08 PM »
The axle is 5 months after the engine and other LM1/M35's from Caracas had 10 bolt axles. Hard to say for sure, I have limited data.
Color - I've not seen anything that required the colors to be US colors.
I'd be chatting with those prior owners. :)

Many thanks Kurt!
When I get to the car will try to get more info on the previous owner and their contact details.
If I have any news will let you know.
Regards,

 

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