Author Topic: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators  (Read 1073 times)

crossboss

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2019, 09:01:07 PM »
A very cool looking set up, but after reading a bit about the development and usage, it seems it was all show and no go for racing, as the stock carburetor set up out performed it. Here is one link that gives some more details:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mufp-0609-1967-shelby-mustang-gt350/



Yes, and no. Like I mentioned its not a 'bolt on and go' set up. With racing, and street driving I fine 'tuned' mine over the years. I hope this does not come off as an ego trip, I most likely have more 'hands on' experience with the Cross-Boss and Inline carb than anyone. With some trial and errors, engineering internal flow modifications to the intake and carb, it will come alive and become a highly competitive unit. Yes, its not recommended for low RPM usage, however, a Boss 302 engine is not a torque monster anyways….aka RPM is where both the engine and intake/carb combo really shines.
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Swede70

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2019, 09:08:25 PM »
Thanks CrossBoss,

Indeed - you beat me to it given I thought of updating my message across the day that was.  The inlet runners underneath whatever carburetor configuration is employed pick up charge if you will from near the opposite bank of the vee - hence 'cross' and 'ram' too.  Besides, the Smokey Ram is appreciated as a single 4 bbl intake design with a like large open plenum situated below, and more or less matching features from what came before.  Sorry for the sloppiness and thanks for your informed input!


-

...also and just in passing, a question for you.  Period race reports from Laguna Seca relate almost casually that Bud Moore Engineering showed up with the Cross Boss and Autolite inline carburetors, but that such were disallowed.  O.K., we all kind of know that, but what I'd be curious about is did they actually attempt to roll through tech with them in place, was it a conversation with SCCA Technical Inspector John Timanus whereby the setup(s) quietly rested in boxes on the equipment transport, etc., or just what?  The David Friedman photo collection accessible via the Benson Ford Research Center, while huge and valued, doesn't have a single image of the inline setup in place on a car, so I'm thinking some editorial license was used by those scribes doing their duty in-period.  Surely more would have been said or known at this point I do think...

-

Just a throwaway observation this.  I does happen for increased knowledge that parts, assemblies, entire chassis, etc. that proved resistant to ready development in-period do in time see their fullest potential for studied application by those who have them now.  Look at any classic or vintage F1 grid and one will witness what were no-hoper combinations from the past well-polished, thoroughly sorted out, reliable, and unquestionably fast too.

Oh - and do you think the Holley 'Name That Carburetor Contest' was fixed?  A total scandal then, while to those looking on - you read it here FIRST (ha!).

Mike K./Swede70
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 09:29:02 PM by Swede70 »

crossboss

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2019, 09:31:30 PM »
Thanks CrossBoss,

Indeed - you beat me to it given I thought of updating my message across the day that was.  The inlet runners underneath whatever carburetor configuration is employed pick up charge if you will from near the opposite bank of the vee - hence 'cross' and 'ram' too.  Besides, the Smokey Ram is appreciated as a single 4 bbl intake with a like large open plenum below, and more or less matching features from what came before.  Sorry for the sloppiness and thanks for your informed input!


-

...also and just in passing, a question for you.  Period race reports from Laguna Seca relate almost casually that Bud Moore Engineering showed up with the Cross Boss and Autolite inline carburetors, but that such were disallowed.  O.K., we all kind of know that, but what I'd be curious about is did they actually attempt to roll through tech with them in place, was it a conversation with anyone on the scene whereby the setup(s) quietly rested in boxes on the equipment transport, etc., or just what?  The David Friedman photo collection accessible via the Benson Ford Research Center, while huge and valued, doesn't have a single image of the inline setup in place on a car, so I'm thinking some editorial license was used by those scribes doing there duty in-period.

-

Oh - and do you think the Holley 'Name That Carburetor Contest' was fixed?  A total scandal then, while to those looking on - you read it here FIRST!

Mike K./Swede70



Mike,
Bud Moore did test the CB and Inline, I believe it was at Riverside with George Follmer at the helm. Lap times were pretty good, the only reports that I have heard were of a lean stumble coming out of the turns. This was a problem that can be 'fixed' with the one of the internal mods that I referred to. Bud, the ever cautious and creative man he was, heard rumors that SCCA was going to ban the CB and Inline and had a back up plan: The Mini-Plenum intake ready in the wings. That said, I believe IF the SCCA allowed the CB and Inline legal, I'm sure more R&D time would have made it perfect.
BTW, It is my opinion, Chevrolet's Cross-Ram was a 'better design' out of the box, and a superior performer on the street than the Cross-Boss intake.
Lastly, do I think Hot-Rods contest was fixed? Well….magazines are advertising generated, so you can come to your own conclusions.
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BULLITT65

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 07:25:24 AM »

BTW, It is my opinion, Chevrolet's Cross-Ram was a 'better design' out of the box, and a superior performer on the street than the Cross-Boss intake.
Lastly, do I think Hot-Rods contest was fixed? Well….magazines are advertising generated, so you can come to your own conclusions.

The cross ram may have been a better design for the track, but from everything I have read in regards to test drives from performance mags of the day, the cross ram only lived up to the hype in the higher rpm range. (and once you were already moving at a good click), and more than 1 magazine that tested it with the off road cam, said that the single 4V would outperform it.
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crossboss

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2019, 02:56:15 PM »

BTW, It is my opinion, Chevrolet's Cross-Ram was a 'better design' out of the box, and a superior performer on the street than the Cross-Boss intake.
Lastly, do I think Hot-Rods contest was fixed? Well….magazines are advertising generated, so you can come to your own conclusions.

The cross ram may have been a better design for the track, but from everything I have read in regards to test drives from performance mags of the day, the cross ram only lived up to the hype in the higher rpm range. (and once you were already moving at a good click), and more than 1 magazine that tested it with the off road cam, said that the single 4V would outperform it.



Correct. As you mentioned for high speed runs the Cross-Ram/Cross-Boss intakes WILL out perform their 4V counterparts. The 'theory' behind the design, with the large plenum, and long runners create mass volumes of air/fuel, so when the intake valve opens and the piston is on its downstroke it sucks it all in 'filling' the cylinders to maximum capacity..hence the term 'Ram'. Cross-Ram intakes are essentially a sideways tunnel ram that fit under a hood. Example, take a look at NASCAR intakes from the late 1960s through the '70's most teams used a form of 'Ram-Box' intake for maximum performance.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 03:36:41 PM by crossboss »
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JohnSlack

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2019, 08:42:01 PM »
Thanks CrossBoss,

Indeed - you beat me to it given I thought of updating my message across the day that was.  The inlet runners underneath whatever carburetor configuration is employed pick up charge if you will from near the opposite bank of the vee - hence 'cross' and 'ram' too.  Besides, the Smokey Ram is appreciated as a single 4 bbl intake with a like large open plenum below, and more or less matching features from what came before.  Sorry for the sloppiness and thanks for your informed input!


-

...also and just in passing, a question for you.  Period race reports from Laguna Seca relate almost casually that Bud Moore Engineering showed up with the Cross Boss and Autolite inline carburetors, but that such were disallowed.  O.K., we all kind of know that, but what I'd be curious about is did they actually attempt to roll through tech with them in place, was it a conversation with anyone on the scene whereby the setup(s) quietly rested in boxes on the equipment transport, etc., or just what?  The David Friedman photo collection accessible via the Benson Ford Research Center, while huge and valued, doesn't have a single image of the inline setup in place on a car, so I'm thinking some editorial license was used by those scribes doing there duty in-period.

-

Oh - and do you think the Holley 'Name That Carburetor Contest' was fixed?  A total scandal then, while to those looking on - you read it here FIRST!

Mike K./Swede70



Mike,
Bud Moore did test the CB and Inline, I believe it was at Riverside with George Follmer at the helm. Lap times were pretty good, the only reports that I have heard were of a lean stumble coming out of the turns. This was a problem that can be 'fixed' with the one of the internal mods that I referred to. Bud, the ever cautious and creative man he was, heard rumors that SCCA was going to ban the CB and Inline and had a back up plan: The Mini-Plenum intake ready in the wings. That said, I believe IF the SCCA allowed the CB and Inline legal, I'm sure more R&D time would have made it perfect.
BTW, It is my opinion, Chevrolet's Cross-Ram was a 'better design' out of the box, and a superior performer on the street than the Cross-Boss intake.
Lastly, do I think Hot-Rods contest was fixed? Well….magazines are advertising generated, so you can come to your own conclusions.

Scott,
As you know Bud did not feel stuck with the Mini-Plenum at all he preffered it. FoMoCo developed the CROSS-BOSS for the BOSS 302 and also the Autolite inline carburetor for several engines. Bud never wanted to run that intake. I got that straight from Bud Moore when I called him years ago. He had already by the first race in the 1970 developed the Mini-Plenum, even though there were additional port changes done during the season. The ramps were in the intake because he had to sell them to anyone who wanted to buy one, however Bud's intakes had them removed....his son Greg told me that they were a "flaw" cast into the intakes on purpose because Bud knew he was going to be racing against other people who had bought his intake.
John

crossboss

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Re: Cross-Ram VS Ford's IR Dominators
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2019, 09:30:34 PM »
John,
Yes, correct. Swede70 asked IF Bud tested the Cross-Boss and Inline carb and the answer was yes he did. Was it his favorite intake? No, and the rest is history as we know it.
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