Author Topic: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?  (Read 10669 times)

firstgenaddict

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I have asked a few guys that deal in high performance big block chevrolet's and they have never seen one...
Wondering if anyone has seen a L89 Auto engine... ever?
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
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KurtS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 04:03:06 AM »
About 4 or 5.
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Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2018, 05:50:15 AM »
JM 1969- 396/375hp Camaro w/ Aluminum Heads
Also
JM 1969- 396/375hp Nova
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 07:21:44 AM by Opium Motors »
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KurtS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2018, 05:55:12 AM »
L89 is not believed to ever have been installed on a Nova. Camaro only.
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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 07:19:45 AM »
Your right the Nova never had the L89. They called it a L78 JM 396/375hp 4Speed
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Kelley W King

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2018, 12:18:28 PM »
Most Novas were really low end or option cars. The L78 was not really that expense of an option but the L89 was. Low end is probably why they just do not bring much money. If you look at them at the shows a clock is rare and AC is even rarer.
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X33RS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2018, 12:36:45 PM »
In the early 80's I knew of a 69 SS Nova that had a JM coded engine in it.  I don't know if it was original to the car but the owner history was known at the time back to the original purchaser.  2 different friends of mine wound up with the car.  The original owner was a fellow out of Indiana that was drafted to Vietnam shortly after purchase.  He never returned home and his parents just parked the car.  Scott, a friend of mine,  found the car in the early 80's advertised for sale as an L89 with low miles.  That's when I first saw it.  Didn't run right and turned out the original owner had installed aluminum valve spring retainers (a common modification back then) and there were a couple of them failing and ready to drop a valve.  So he sold the car to a buddy of mine who was a competitive drag racer.  He pulled the engine for a refresh.  Other than headers it was left stock.  Was an automatic on the column and bench seat car.  Silver with black interior, and had 4.56 gears, but I don't know if those were original or not.  He actually raced the car with a pair of slicks and opened the headers.  The car clicked off 3 consecutive 11.90's passes and he put it back on the trailer.  Drove it on the street for a couple more years to various shows and cruises and then was sold to someone in New York with a car collection.  Lost track of it since and never heard of it for sale again.  I was going to purchase the car but was beaten to the punch.  Had protecto plate and other paperwork with it.   But I don't recall if the engine was original or not.  Everyone at the time believed it was a real aluminum headed car but back then it wasn't scrutinized like it is today either.  Wish I would have paid more attention to it at the time.

bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2018, 03:41:28 PM »
Quote
JM 1969- 396/375hp Camaro w/ Aluminum Heads
Also
JM 1969- 396/375hp Nova

Quote
Your right the Nova never had the L89. They called it a L78 JM 396/375hp 4Speed

The JM code was ONLY used on the 1969 Camaro L89 with the Turbo 400. It was never used on the 1969 Nova. The 1969 Nova L78 with the Turbo 400 was a JL code, the same as the 1969 Camaro L78 with the Turbo 400.

Ed

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2018, 05:53:36 PM »
Quote
JM 1969- 396/375hp Camaro w/ Aluminum Heads
Also
JM 1969- 396/375hp Nova

Quote
Your right the Nova never had the L89. They called it a L78 JM 396/375hp 4Speed

The JM code was ONLY used on the 1969 Camaro L89 with the Turbo 400. It was never used on the 1969 Nova. The 1969 Nova L78 with the Turbo 400 was a JL code, the same as the 1969 Camaro L78 with the Turbo 400.

Ed

My mistake, the Nova JM is not a L78 but did have a 396 w/L89 heads, I admit that mistake, I have no problem in admitting when I am wrong, getting old I guess....

Now, from the Novaresource.org they seem to be the CRG of Novas.

1969
8-cylinder (big block)
JF - 396cid (350hp) w/manual
JH - 396cid (375hp) w/manual
JI - 396cid (350hp) w/TH400
JL - 396cid (375hp) w/TH400
JM - 396cid (375hp) w/TH400 (L89 aluminum heads)
JU - 396cid (375hp) w/Powerglide
KA - 396cid (350hp) w/manual and HD clutch
KC - 396cid (375hp) w/manual and HD clutch
KE - 396cid (375hp) w/manual (L89 aluminum heads)

Clearly Nova did have a JM block.

Ok, I am not confrontational, I simply enjoy research and know that the learning never ends. My books have tons of penciled in information in the margins, for no source is ever perfect. I have found in my 40 yrs of working on muscle cars that there is always the exception to the rule.
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bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 06:18:43 PM »
No need for you to think you're being confrontational. We LOVE discussing things like this!! It's what we live for!

And to continue the discussion, there are a lot of WEB sites that show the JM code for the 1969 Nova, and while it "may" exist, none are known to have ever been built.

We at the CRG use original Chevrolet documentation for research because books, magazines and WEB sites are usually (more often than not) riddled with errors. The example below was taken from the September, 1968 Parts and Accessories Manual (P&A 25) showing what the engine codes were for each Chevrolet model in 1969. As you can see, there's no JM code listed for the 1969 Nova. However, while I never say never, without hard proof, I'm a disbeliever.

But even GM docs can be contradicting so we use several different GM resources to verify what actually happened at the time of manufacturer. Sometimes this can be really frustrating but usually, through a lot of digging, we can get to the truth! A good example of this frustration is the Dual Disk clutch option for the 1969 Camaro, RPO MA6). There are references to it in Chevrolet records, but again, none are known to have ever been built. The 1969 Corvette, yes (102 units), but not the 1969 Camaro.

If you have an original GM doc showing something different, please let us know. We're ALWAYS on the lookout for original GM documentation!

Ed

Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2018, 06:46:46 PM »
Most of my collection of books have already been moved to my ranch, my final destination with two barns for my cars. But I will dig out what I have and see what I can find.

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bcmiller

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2018, 07:28:19 PM »
Yes I have heard rumors of L89 Novas for years. But remember that the heads were available over the counter and as stated, back then codes on engines were not scrutinized as heavily as today.

As rare as they might be, you would think at least one L89 Nova would have surfaced with documentation by now if they existed. I don't think they do.

And yes most of the Novas were “lower end” cars (bench seats, rubber floor mats) but damn with a little work they are FAST.  Remember Chevrolet would not let the 427 be factory installed in 69 like they allowed for the Camaro and Chevelle. Yenko did, and then called it “a beast” and “almost lethal”.   
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
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Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2018, 07:39:41 PM »
This is a 1970 but good information.

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2008/06/1970-Chevrolet-Nova-SS-396-375-L89/1643771.html

...Chevrolet offered them as an upgrade to its hairiest version of the 396: the 375hp L78. Selecting the alloy heads changed the engine code to L89, but didn't up the horsepower rating--that remained at 375. As this was a pricey upgrade, particularly for something that didn't provide any extra power, not many Chevys were built with the L89 option....It took some digging, but Frendel was finally able to find a source that confirmed the availability of the L89 in the Nova and, more specifically, the CKT-code block as designating an L89 meant for a Nova.

I would love to know the source he discovered

So in 1969 you can special order L89 Heads for your 396, and if as above that is where they get the L89 Option. Now we need the proof of a JM block for Nova.
1968 Camaro RS Convertible 327 4 Speed Corvette Bronze
1973 Corvette 454

bcmiller

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2018, 07:53:14 PM »
People have been looking for many years, no proof has been found. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

bcmiller

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2018, 08:39:28 PM »
Quote
Ok, I am not confrontational, I simply enjoy research and know that the learning never ends. My books have tons of penciled in information in the margins, for no source is ever perfect. I have found in my 40 yrs of working on muscle cars that there is always the exception to the rule.

Tell us about yourself.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 12:45:42 AM »
I was designed on the GM drafting table during the horsepower wars. I was utilized on the race track for a number of years with the idea I would be given the opportunity to be an RPO item but alas I was cancelled.

The rest is a much too long of story.
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KurtS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 01:25:43 AM »
Summation - Nova fanatics have dug for years and never found a real L89 Nova. Don't believe articles, they print what the owner tells them....
Kurt S
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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 01:59:41 AM »
Sigh,

Ok, I have a Corvette with a Big Block with factory Side Pipes, one would say 'so what, so do plenty of folks' while yes, but, mine is a 1973 and there was NO RPO for Side Pipes in 1973, no part number listed, no bulletins no paperwork exist so it should not have happened by the standards given.

But it did, for my neighbor bought the car new, he wanted Side Pipes and he got them, from the factory, I was there when it came off the trailer at the dealership. He owned a Machine Shop and was friends with the Dealership (They built Drag Cars in the 60's) So when he wanted Side Pipes he got Side Pipes.

So the moral of the story is, back then if you wanted something, pretty much you got it. So what if that makes it a 1 of 1 it does not matter. I don't go around beating my chest that I have a million dollar car because of this; but I will say, ain't it cool I am the only one with a 1973 BBC with Factory Side Pipes, Or am I???
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KurtS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2018, 02:04:52 AM »
back then if you wanted something, pretty much you got it.
Yup, people tell stories about Camaro golden unicorns (e.g. L89 with JL8 brakes, 69 Z with special cam, etc) but I can't recall a single one holding up to scrutiny. The L89 turned out to be a L48 car....
The factory ordering process is well-known as are the exceptions and how they could occur.
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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 02:36:20 AM »

Camaro golden unicorns


here's one, 327-210hp with factory Muncie 4 Speed. It is on a car so original it still has tags around suspension parts. Stats says no Muncie but it is, speedo goes through the right hole and the VIN is clearly stamped on it. I assume rather then an order it was simply the young pot smoker grabbed the wrong tranny and off it went. But it show once again that there are exceptions to the rule.
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bcmiller

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 03:09:07 AM »
Tell us more. Have pics to support it?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2018, 03:13:07 AM »
I will do an extensive details photographs, right now I’m in West Texas and the car is at my Ranch in Oklahoma. So it will be this fall.
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bcmiller

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2018, 03:55:49 AM »
Interesting. I will send you a pm or an email with my contact info. 
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

firstgenaddict

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2018, 07:29:51 AM »

Camaro golden unicorns


here's one, 327-210hp with factory Muncie 4 Speed. It is on a car so original it still has tags around suspension parts. Stats says no Muncie but it is, speedo goes through the right hole and the VIN is clearly stamped on it. I assume rather then an order it was simply the young pot smoker grabbed the wrong tranny and off it went. But it show once again that there are exceptions to the rule.

So EXACTLY who told the person to punch the correct hole in the firewall prior to the HIPPIE choosing the wrong transmission?

I never say never EXCEPT to say I NEVER SPEAK IN ABSOLUTES.

Many here have admitted our mistaken conclusions after having been presented with evidence which CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED the contradictory claims being asserted.

I suspect if there were a Muncie installed on the assembly line the car was a 327 4 bbl 4 speed with positraction...
This referenced combination received a muncie transmission most of the time.



« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 08:36:40 AM by firstgenaddict »
James
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bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2018, 01:06:34 PM »
Quote
I suspect if there were a Muncie installed on the assembly line the car was a 327 4 bbl 4 speed with positraction...
This referenced combination received a muncie transmission most of the time.

James, the 327 Camaro received a Muncie transmission NONE of the time. They all got the Saginaw transmission if the buyer opted for the 4 speed. (And I KNOW you know this!!!)

As for stories you hear along the way, they're all BS. The dealer may have installed the side pipes but the FACTORY didn't. PERIOD. The factory didn't even HAVE side pipes at the assembly plant TO install after the 1969 model year, so it was impossible. As for the Muncie in the 327, without verified proof, it never happened.

I'm sorry Opium Motors, but your memory is failing you.

Ed
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 01:52:51 PM by bertfam »

69Z28-RS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 01:28:36 PM »
Quote
I suspect if there were a Muncie installed on the assembly line the car was a 327 4 bbl 4 speed with positraction...
This referenced combination received a muncie transmission most of the time.

James, the 327 Camaro received a Muncie transmission NONE of the time. They all got the Saginaw transmission if the buyer opted for the 4 speed.

As for stories you hear along the way, they're all BS. The dealer may have installed the side pipes but the FACTORY didn't. PERIOD. The factory didn't even HAVE side pipes at the assembly plant TO install after the 1969 model year, so it was impossible. As for the Muncie in the 327, without verified proof, it never happened.

I'm sorry Opium Motors, but your memory is failing you.

Ed

I strongly suspect Ed is correct; people believe these really oddball stories about parts combinations, but Ed is correct... the factory didn't have those parts, and they didn't do 'one offs' because of the HUGE COSTS associated with it!  On the other hand, dealers would do anything that the customer would pay them to do, assuming they could get the parts and make $$...   In the case of the '68 327 car with Muncie trans (seemingly original), that is exactly the sort of thing that a dealer could easily do, and if it was for the original purchaser (on a new car), they could stamp the trans and do everything very closely to what the factory *would have done*.   It will be interesting to see the VIN stamps on that Muncie trans to see if/how well the stamp matches the engine stamp.. (Did '68 327 engines GET an engine VIN stamping?)...  If not, then there goes that 'check'...  :)
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bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2018, 01:54:45 PM »
Quote
Did '68 327 engines GET an engine VIN stamping?

Yes, starting in 1968, ALL engines/transmissions got the partial VIN stamp.

Ed

Kelley W King

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2018, 02:55:03 PM »
Memories of our old cars are great. But without a window sticker or build sheet that is all they are memories.
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Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2018, 06:10:43 PM »
bertfam

It happens more then you think.

In 1992 I was doing a brake job on my girlfriends 80 something Fox Body Mercury Capri with a 4 cylinder. She did not tell me she needed brakes until the rotors were shot. New rotors were more expensive then they should have been for her little 4 cylinder was sporting Large Mustang GT brakes, installed from the factory.

Just another, "well, we do not have the right part, let's use this one." You do enough work on cars, you will find that it happen often.

I agree with you 100% NO Low HP or 327 was to receive a Muncie. But one must understand, wrong parts are installed at the factory. It could be as simple as the Saginaw truck had a flat tire, they could not shut down the line so they installed what they had. Fact is, I, you, none of us know why these things happen but the truth remains that it does occur.

Now, as for Side Pipes on a 73, Easy to prove it was factory installed and not dealer. If you know anything about these cars, then you will know that right below the rear chrome bumpers there are exhaust cut outs for the chrome tips. Mine has no cut outs, it was also not filled in. So the dealer would not have cut out the entire tail light panel, refinished and repainted just to have a exhaust tip delete look; that leave only the factory.

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maroman

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2018, 06:18:28 PM »
I am not sure why everything has to turn into a pissing contest. This gets real old real quick. I come here to learn stuff not go through this with so many subjects.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2018, 07:02:28 PM »
Quote
I agree with you 100% NO Low HP or 327 was to receive a Muncie. But one must understand, wrong parts are installed at the factory. It could be as simple as the Saginaw truck had a flat tire, they could not shut down the line so they installed what they had. Fact is, I, you, none of us know why these things happen but the truth remains that it does occur.

Now, as for Side Pipes on a 73, Easy to prove it was factory installed and not dealer. If you know anything about these cars, then you will know that right below the rear chrome bumpers there are exhaust cut outs for the chrome tips. Mine has no cut outs, it was also not filled in. So the dealer would not have cut out the entire tail light panel, refinished and repainted just to have a exhaust tip delete look; that leave only the factory.

Clearly you know nothing about the manufacturing process and I don't have the time or the inclination to teach you. However, I invite you to read THIS.

Being a member of the NCRS I know a lot about Corvettes. I've owned several over the years and currently own a 1969 L36 Roadster. THE FACTORY CAN'T INSTALL SOMETHING THEY DON'T HAVE. It's just that simple.

And just an FYI, people have been faking cars since they were invented. Everything required to put side exhaust on a car was available from the dealer and even the aftermarket. Just saying you have something isn't proof.

And until you submit that proof, it never happened and you're just beating a dead horse. Since I'm positive the proof won't be forthcoming, I'll no longer be replying to your comments. Arguing just makes me weary. I'll just end this by saying you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe and we'll call it a day.

Ed


« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 07:25:58 PM by bertfam »

Opium Motors

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2018, 11:38:09 PM »
I have not called anyone's integrity into question. It is a shame that others can not say the same thing.

The examples that I had offered were to open a civil dialog as to the oddities that arise from the factory. That not every car was built following the prescribed guidelines.

Although there are the standards the factory strives to uphold, there are also present certain variables at hand, it is therefor logical that abnormalities arise.

Case in point: does the CRG have the variations of Stripes painted by the Van Nuys plant? If so, you shall note that from the "Factory", not all painted stripes follow the standards outlined. Given that, if a non standard factory painted strip is judged, what would be the result? Since it does not follow the RPO is it not true, a lie, faked? Or should it be accepted as an Original and an abnormality of the standard.
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firstgenaddict

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2018, 12:10:18 AM »
Flogging a dead horse is not very entertaining... it's like rocking in a rocking chair... gives you something to do but gets you nowhere FAST.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

HustleRussell

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2018, 12:17:39 AM »
The original question was answered in first reply.
Russ 
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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2018, 02:31:47 PM »
Out of curiosity I checked out my 10/76 parts manual, appears there's a JM code listed for 1969 Chevy II. Typo?

bertfam

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2018, 06:37:31 PM »
Quote
Out of curiosity I checked out my 10/76 parts manual, appears there's a JM code listed for 1969 Chevy II. Typo?

Typo? Probably not. Just an out and out mistake. The later issue P&A manuals are full of them! As I stated before, even GM docs can be contradicting so we use several different GM resources to verify what actually happened at the time of manufacturer.

Ed

KurtS

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2018, 04:30:02 AM »
Typo - not really. The manuals seem to show that it was planned. But for whatever reason, it didn't happen.
That's why if you just quote the book, you make incorrect statements - which is what started all this.
Kurt S
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firstgenaddict

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Re: JM Coded Engine... has anyone ever seen a JM coded engine block?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2018, 06:08:03 AM »
Kinda like the LS7 planned for 1970... 454 all aluminum...  listed as an option for the Vettes but cancelled or never went into production due to paring of the power team combos which had become EXTENSIVE by 70 for the Vette. 
James
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