Is it a factory big block?

[jim28607]

Just brought home 69 RS/SS - Is there a way to determine if it was a factory bb car?
It is pre x code 09A
I wanted to post pic but file is to large!

[ko-lek-tor]

There are several clues you can look for. Do a search on "big block car" and you may find your answer. Go http://www.camaros.org/diffs69.shtml
and scroll down to the big block column and you may find some information helpful.

[william]

There are several 'tells' the most obvious being the heater. On a non-AC big block the heater hoses mount at the middle of the cover. All others are behind the engine next to the cover.

Only matters if the car is completely original. If it has been restored or messed with all bets are off. All the sb/bb differences have been well-known for decades; not all that difficult to find and swap out the parts.

[bcmiller]

Check as many things as you can. Radiator, heater box, engine frame stands, cross member.  Transmission should be a Muncie 4 speed or TH400. And it needs to have a 12 bolt axle. Check the code on the front passenger side axle tube and let us know what it is.

Engines and transmissions are changed a lot. Axles tend to stay with the car, in general. We should be able to tell by the date if the axle is original to the car.

[jim28607]

Here it is. of course not a factory 427 !!

[jim28607]

Check as many things as you can. Radiator, heater box, engine frame stands, cross member.  Transmission should be a Muncie 4 speed or TH400. And it needs to have a 12 bolt axle. Check the code on the front passenger side axle tube and let us know what it is.

Engines and transmissions are changed a lot. Axles tend to stay with the car, in general. We should be able to tell by the date if the axle is original to the car.

Will post what I find.

I do know the speedo cable is in the Muncie position right of steering column.

Thank you all, I think I look forward to your answers.

Jim

[jim28607]

There are several 'tells' the most obvious being the heater. On a non-AC big block the heater hoses mount at the middle of the cover. All others are behind the engine next to the cover.

Only matters if the car is completely original. If it has been restored or messed with all bets are off. All the sb/bb differences have been well-known for decades; not all that difficult to find and swap out the parts.

  It is non AC , I will post what I find.

Thank You

Jim

[jim28607]

There are several 'tells' the most obvious being the heater. On a non-AC big block the heater hoses mount at the middle of the cover. All others are behind the engine next to the cover.

Only matters if the car is completely original. If it has been restored or messed with all bets are off. All the sb/bb differences have been well-known for decades; not all that difficult to find and swap out the parts.

From this pic , looks like BB heater hose location, you think?

[WorkinProgress]

They also had Muncie 3 speeds behind the low perf 396, 1969 Camaros.

                                                             - Warren

[jim28607]

They also had Muncie 3 speeds behind the low perf 396, 1969 Camaros.

                                                             - Warren

   UGH !!!   Any tells to differentiate the two ?

Jim

[william]

The heater appears to be BB as does the radiator. Shroud is also BB but is the service replacement version. The car has obviously had restoration work done to it. Sharp car; looks very well-done!

A 396 engine with the HD 3-speed trans is extremely rare. Same speedo cable routing; only tell might be the floor pan cutout. BTW ordering information dated January 2, 1969 lists the HD 3-speed as the standard trans for all 396 engines, L78 included.

[ko-lek-tor]

The heater appears to be BB as does the radiator. Shroud is also BB but is the service replacement version. The car has obviously had restoration work done to it. Sharp car; looks very well-done!

A 396 engine with the HD 3-speed trans is extremely rare. Same speedo cable routing; only tell might be the floor pan cutout. BTW ordering information dated January 2, 1969 lists the HD 3-speed as the standard trans for all 396 engines, L78 included.

3 speeds, this fact always bothered me that J.M. never mentions this in his book on 69's, yet lists all the other "should haves" for the SS & Z.

Re BB ID: Adding a Matrix to the 3 year ID boxes, for each year (far Rh. next to "Eng." "Trans.""Chassis" sections) That would be like a self check off list. Such as, Do you have this, then move to the next item,then the next and so forth as a self spotter's guide to a Z & SS? That way, when someone comes along and ask....well maybe not. Why simplify the fakers work by giving them a check off list??

[bcmiller]

I initially read the above post wrong.

It's ok to have a list, but it's more fun to converse back and forth!

[bcmiller]

And as Willam said, the HD Muncie 3 speed was pretty rare. Even more rare to see in cars today.

[william]

3 speeds, this fact always bothered me that J.M. never mentions this in his book on 69's, yet lists all the other "should haves" for the SS & Z.

It IS mentioned in JM's '69 book under "The 1969 RPO L34-L35-L78-L89 SS396 Package":

Three or four-speed manual transmission or Turbo 400 automatic transmission required

The statement is a bit misleading in that the HD 3-speed did not have to be ordered; it was standard on all Camaro SS.

Just for the record there were two 3-speed manual transmissions used for '69. The Saginaw 3-speed trans was standard equipment with all 6 cylinder, 307, 327 and L65 350 engines. Column-shifted unless M11 or D55 was also ordered. The HD Muncie 3-speed was the standard trans for all Camaro SS; floor-shift was included. At the start of '69 production it was listed as an option [MC1] but in reality was the required [$79] base transmission for the LM1 255/350 engine. If LM1 was ordered an optional transmission was required. Both were dropped as options as of December 1, 1968.

A Camaro SS350 with a 3-speed was not at all unusual as many insurance companies added a surcharge for a 4-speed. A 3-speed 396 is very rare; I do not know of an L78 with a 3-speed.

Like the LM1, Z/28 equipment did not include a standard transmission. It required at extra cost an M20, M21 or M22 4-speed transmission.