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Author Topic: A VIN with only 5 digits !!  (Read 756 times)
Christophe
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« on: February 20, 2014, 07:42:43 AM »

I am inspecting a 69 Camaro SS396/375HP in Europe. Restored by top house in the US, ~100points in National Camaro contest, quoted as matching number by seller, appraisal firm (not specialist but generalist). Trim tag, suffix are all correct and consistent, VIN is consistent in terms of date, but ...

On engine stamp, after the thinly engraved first series of number (JH suffix which is correct too), there is the 19N followed by THE LAST 5 DIGITS OF THE VIN AND NOT THE FULL VIN

I dont get it. If this is a forgery, it would all be correct except for the most obvious things to replicate?. How dumb do I need to be, as a forger, to forget a the first figure of the VIN

Would it be possible that the machining operator forgot that when they actually engraved it ? Has anyone seen something like this ever ?

I dont get it. I ll buy the car outright and become a truly legitimate member of this site but for now I cannot


THANKS FOR THE HELP

From an enthusiast collector of vintage cars from France
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 09:46:24 AM »

Christophe, you won't see a complete VIN stamped on the engine pad. This is what is called a "partial VIN". It should be something like 19Nxxxxxx, where xxxxxx is the last 6 digits of the car's VIN. If you only have the last 5 digits, it could be a restamp, a factory mistake or one of the digits was stamped too light to see.

Post a picture of the VIN tag, the trim tag and the engine pad and we can tell you more.

Ed
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Christophe
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2014, 06:19:24 PM »

Ed, thanks for the time

Trim tag is an early gen Norwood plant one:
ST 69 12437N130214 BDY
TR 711 69 69 PNT
10B

This corresponds exactly. I first thought the trim tag might be a forgery too because on early period Nor cars (no Xs), the lines end up with BODY and PAINT spelled out. But then I found photos of similar ones on the web, so both exist (BDY and BODY and PNT or PAINT, both for early period, they must have switched at some point before December 68). Again, trusting what I read and see, I m totally new to this subject matter

Vin is 12437N516571

Periods match, ie October 68. The VIN tag is a reproduction in German, which is mandatory in GErmany. The orginal was damaged apparently

Then the Partial VIN on the engine stamp is 19N16571 !!!

The rest of the stamping I could not see in full because it s so hard to access these stamping but they end with JH, as it should, again so I read

I could live with certain parts as replacements, such as even the Transmission, after all these are all very old and one changes transmissions on recent sports cars too. But I really want some of the key elements to be original "enough"

The guy who s selling is clueless. I d like to see the block cast 39... number but he does not know what that is. He keeps showing me the equivalent matching in a 67 Corvette, where indeed everything matches and is easily accessible..., from the same owner. To the point that I then thought he wanted to lure me into not looking at things well enough

A german appraisal firm also said it was matching number but what do they know really. This car had National Concours Camaro 97/100 points

I dont have pictures and dont know how to paste on forum but trust me for now, the elements I have look original, like the trim tag. And frankly the stamping is also looking very original (the fonts look as they should, positions of sequences as well)

According to another expert, who has not seen the picture, it s a restamp

I felt it was removing a lot of the originality in the car. To the extreme I could tolerate a restamp if the original stamp was eroded, but why on earth forget a digit ? I dont understand how it s even possible even to the most amateur restamper and considering the rest, somewhat more technical and the source of plenty of mistakes, looks all ok

You view is welcome

It was quite an experience so far and I love it. Maybe I ll settle for a full certificated one in the US even if I have to pay top doll and my socialist governments break my back here on imports (30%!!!)

Best
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Christophe
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2014, 07:10:58 PM »

Sorry I meant in trim NOR and not N and in VIN 124379. It s late here and I drove 1000km
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VINCE Z28
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2014, 07:31:30 PM »

Huh?? Undecided
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" He who knows naught, knows not that he knows naught"  It's not you...  It's just the way my brain is wired.
ZLP955
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 07:51:53 PM »

Salut Christophe, bienvenue a CRG.
As Ed said, if you can get good, crisp photos of the trim tag and relevant drivetrain parts, plenty of very knowledgeable folk here will be able to comment and help you reach a decision on the car.
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
04A VN '69 z/28 69-69 715 ex-E/MP
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 09:55:42 PM »

Yes, please do post a good picture of the trim tag and the partial VIN on the engine pad.

Ed
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KurtS
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 12:45:35 AM »

I've seen other Camaros in Germany with original VIN tags.
I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling here....
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Kurt S
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