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Author Topic: 69 survivor that wasnt. Is it even a real #'s matching Z ?  (Read 2752 times)
jack92584
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« on: November 10, 2013, 12:45:01 AM »

So I took my Z to a car show today and while I was there a guy stopped by and told me he had brought a 9,200 mile 1969 Z28 survivor to the show. Of course, I had to check it out and even a new guy like me could quickly tell it wasnt a true survivor. Lots of problems not the least of which was it had deluxe door panels and Houndstooth seats with a 711 cowl tag. Anyway, I took some photos of the pad stamping and the cowl tag and I thought Id post them here ad see if you think they are also questionable. Partial vin on pad matched dash vin.

[Edit by Forum admin per request of OP]
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 06:06:28 PM by Rich » Logged

69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
dannystarr
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 01:10:11 AM »

Tried to enhance it for better viewing, but just couldn't get it. It is better, and now turned horizontal, but not what I was hoping. Danny

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 06:08:05 PM by Rich » Logged
Mike S
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 08:06:40 AM »

  Is it the mission of CRG to canvas car shows and collect data for the database now? Advertising on public forum like eBay and similar is one thing...it's public. But to collect data such as a VIN, cowl tag, etc... from someone else's car at a show and share it publicly and also request it to be put in the database is another thing, IMHO. Does the owner of this car know this is happening? Regardless if the options are accurate or not, the privacy of people that are not advertising publicy should be respected. Yes, a show is a public event, but that still doesn't give people the right to collect pertinent  info on their cars (meaning outside the usual overall pictures of the body and motor compartment in general) unless they know how you are going to use it.
  Out of my 2 cars, only 1 is in the database and that was done through a private request from Kurt due to a piece of documentation I have. So, after giving it thought I elected to volunteer the information. My other car remains out of it not because there is anything to hide, but simply because that is my choice alone and believe me, other car collectors feel vehemently the same too.

  I would sure hate to see CRG accused of becoming the Camaro Police. Wearing our new CRG shirts at events may start to turn some car show people off if that reputations takes hold.

This is just my opinion,
Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
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janobyte
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 09:44:34 AM »

Sort of agree, I like that potential online scams are shut down, even better if my stuff( god forbid)came up missing--my numbers are recorded(plus other hidden ID) sort of once again at least shutting down EBAY or Craigslist as a selling source. However I would never pick somebody's car apart at a meet. None the less post pics. And there is a reason my engine stamp isn't out there-- If you did it to me, we'd have a problem.
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janobyte
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 09:52:28 AM »

Another thing, that's the reason years ago my Dad always recommended a good coat of paint over that stamp. I know what it is ,I really don't care about someone's opinion ,because most have no clue what they are talking about, let alone even own one---man did you strike a nerve.
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bcmiller
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 10:23:08 AM »

I am thinking about a response.  Not sure exactly what all to say at this point.

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1968 Camaro SS - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
Bryon
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »

I think Jacks heart is in the right place, in wanting to provide info on an "original car" , to verify in case it may come up for sale in the future. Maybe the best course would have been to privately email Kurt or ask some general questions about the motor stamp but not post pictures? I get his idea, but I also agree there is some sense that just because you bring your car to a car show, you don't expect it to get grilled and picked apart on the internet. I agree you don't want to be wearing your CRG shirt at a show and all of sudden camaro owners start closing there hoods and locking there cars up so you don't take pics.
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
jack92584
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2013, 01:24:35 PM »

Hmmm...dint think I'd be stirring  up a hornets nest here. As I mentioned in my first post I am fairly new here and may not be aware of proper edicate as to what is what is public and what is private .I guess my take on this is that if you take your car to a public event open your hood and invite others to “come check out my numbers matching original survivor car” you are not attempting to keep anything private. As mentioned in a previous post a coat of paint would go a long way towards keeping a pad stamping private if that was your intention. My posting of the pictures here was more to satisfy my own curiousity as to what extent this owner had been mislead when he purchased this car. Isnt that what these forums are for, a learning tool ?
Frankly, my dilema was not should I take pictures but what should I say, if anything, to the owner who appears to have been mislead by someone into believing this car was something it isn't. In the end I chose to keep my mouth shut even though it was clear the car was not what it was represented to be. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts as to whether you would have made the owner aware that the car was not what he had been told it was.  Final thoughts... The more I reflect on this I now wish I would have said something to the owner. Its not a question of picking apart someones car but more one of making someone aware they may have been a victim. Perhaps he found it on Ebay or Craigslist and by telling him of the problems maybe he might have had some recourse against the seller and I could have played a part in helping to bring down one of the “scammers”.
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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
69Z28
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2013, 01:41:44 PM »

I'm with Bryon on this one. I've been having a hard time trying to think of a reply to all this but can't. Next thing you know somebody is getting shot because they looked at someones engine pad stamp that had no business doing so...even if it did have a load of paint covering it. Seems to me the hobby isn't really a hobby anymore...way too many angry haters for me to deal with these days. I don't know...just thinking out loud.   
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GaryC

'UNRESTORED' 1969 Cortez Silver X33D80 Z28
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 02:12:10 PM »

Jack I understand your dilemma, and while the CRG is a forum of "here is my opinion and here is my suggestion" or better yet "Here is a pic of my car" type of banter , if it was me I may have just said "nice car" and told him about the CRG website under the guise that there were other Camaro owners out there like him. Then if he wanted to learn more about his car, correct or not, he could. Sometimes ignorance is bliss for people and the less they know the easier it is to repeat what the seller told him, than actually research and know what the seller told you is factual or not.
If someone likes to be in the dark, thats fine with me. You can point the way, if they decide to check things out of there own accord, it may be an easier pill to swallow. Rather than be told by someone "hey your interior is not original to your car" and possibly rub the guy the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents. Smiley
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear) please
Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV
jack92584
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 03:07:22 PM »

if it was me I may have just said "nice car" and told him about the CRG website

In hindsight, I wish thats what I would have done, got the "nice car" part right. For his sake I hope its at least a real Z because it sounded to me like he paid a bunch for it. On the flip side I guess theres  a caveat emptor argument to be made that before he shelled out the cash he should have done some research.

I'm still on the fence about whether I should have taken/posted the pics. Still seems to me that the owner chose to make the numbers/tags  public and to invite scrutiny of them. I chose to make my vin public by posting it. I'm sure it ended up in the database but no one asked my permission. Maybe thats where the distinction is. I posted mine, sellers post theirs, but this owner didnt play an active role in their numbers ending up on the internet. I can understand how if someone (especially if they are wearing a CRG or similar shirt) went around around randomly taking pictures just to be added that wouldn't look good. I would argue that my posting wasn't just to add a number to a database but to stimulate discussion of a car that clearly wasn't what it was represented to be. For no reason other than my own curiosity I was interested in knowing how much the car had been misrepresented. Maybe thats none of my business. Curiosity killed the cat.
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69 Z28 / Hugger Orange /  Deluxe Houndstooth  / M21 / 4:10 Posi / GM of Canada documented
Rich
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2013, 03:35:39 PM »

No matter that it is legal to take pictures in the open at public events, CRG has long striven to honor personal privacy by not publishing detailed information on individual cars that are not already published in the public domain or for which owner permission was not given.

I think the thread discussion above has reached the desired conclusion; thanks for that, all of you!  That said, my personal preference would be for the original posters of the images and data above to edit those posts and retract those data for which the owner did not have opportunity to clear for public release.  Thanks in advance for doing that.

Going forward we expect that CRG Forum members, especially when representing themselves as CRG Forum members either verbally or by wearing a CRG logo, would honor this approach.

Thanks for your support and interest!

Rich
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68 L30/M20 RS
x77-69z28
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2013, 03:47:30 PM »

My .02cents, for what it's worth, is if the car is for sale, all bets are off! If it is at a car show, I would want some privacy. If you had a question on an engine stamp, or a trim tag, vin #'s and NOR numbers should be blocked out. I wouldn't want all my pertinent information floating around out there in cyber space.
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2013, 04:00:10 PM »

I didn't even want to mention the Phillips head screw holding in the wiper motor!
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »

I didn't even want to mention the Phillips head screw holding in the wiper motor!
Gosh! went out and corrected my car after I saw that, you mean it's not right? LOL
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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