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Author Topic: 1968 Rally Sport grille research  (Read 125939 times)
Steve68
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« on: August 23, 2006, 08:36:07 PM »

Ed

Would you mind checking your 68 P&A (date) for me in 1.266 and see if the 67 center grille (3921841) is still listed separately from the 68 center grille (3919060) or if they have been listed as 67-68 w/ RS center .....3919060 at the point of your P&A printing.  I'm curious about something and would appreciate your checking for me.  Thanks!!

Steve
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 09:01:24 PM »

Steve,

No problem...

The P&A shows the following:

Group 1.266

67-68 Camaro w/R.S. - center - 3919060

HOWEVER!!! It also shows the following:

(Same Group)

67 Camaro w/R.S. - Grille Assy, rad. - 3905745
68 Camaro w/R.S. - Grille Assy, rad. - 3929281

Since the upper and lower parts were the same for both years, the only difference would have been the center section, hence the part number difference between the 67 and 68 "Grille Assy". Just WHY they list the center section as being the same is probably because by the time my P&A was published (September, 1968), the 67 center section had been discontinued and they just used the 68 center section as a replacement. That happened a lot back then, so that's my theory.

EDIT: I just did a little more digging and sure enough, my 1971 P&A 26 (Dealer Parts and Accessories Price Schedule) DOESN'T list the 67 center section (3921841). It DOES list the 68 center section (3919060) so my above theory looks good.

Ed
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 09:04:53 PM by bertfam » Logged
Steve68
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 09:15:14 PM »

It does appear that the 060 had replaced the 841 part by 9/68.  What do you show for 3898135 and 3919063?  Are they still separate in 9/68 P&A?
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2006, 09:21:19 PM »

Steve,

Yes, the Left Hand covers are still separate part numbers (3898135 and 3919063), but what's really interesting, it shows the Right Hand cover (3919064) as being used on 67-69!! Boy, someone sure screwed up!!

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 09:32:55 PM »

Ed

Grin Thats funny!  It's also interesting as the right side was not substituted until 10/68 so they must have been anticipating the change over in the P&A 9/68 printing since it was so close.  Either that or you have discovered that the engineers were going to use the 68 headlight cover on the 69 model year Wink but.......

Steve
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 09:37:29 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 10:09:10 PM »

Steve,

Probably just a typo because on the next page, the 69 (left and right) Outer Covers are shown as the correct P/N's, 3949599 and 3949600.

But another interesting item... I just picked up a September, 1968 X691A "Corvair and Camaro Preliminary Parts Catalog" for Canada (which is the exact same publish date as the P&A 34) that lists the "new" part numbers for the 1969 Corvair and Camaro. It shows Group 2.770 "Cover, Headlamp Retracting" as P/N's 3958004 and 3958003 for the 69 Outer Covers! Same publish date, different part numbers!! Just goes to show you how one hand wasn't paying attention to the other!!

OR... Did the Canadian 69 RS Camaro's come with different covers than US cars??? I can see something like that happening since their laws were different than the US. Maybe they didn't require the slots? JOHN?Huh

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2006, 06:59:17 PM »

Ed

I'd vote for typo.  That seems very odd, to say the least, on the Canadian vs US 69 numbers for the HL covers.  I originally asked the center grill question due partly to a post in the old form on the subject.  It was regarding SS/RS black vs. chrome (horizontal) grilles on 68's.  Rich answered the question but did not supply any dates.  It looks like the 060 grille was the "part" for both the 67 & 68 by September of 68 and by what Rich provided it appears it was available in "black" only.  The HL covers though were still apparently (as per your P&A for the LH anyway) available in chrome as my info has the 68 LH HL cover not being substituted for the 67 part until November 68 and the 68 RH HL cover not being substitued for the 67 part until October 68 (even though your P&A shows it to be used effective 9/68...but that is perhaps to be expected given it was being "substituted" in).  I was trying to nail down the exact date when the center chrome grille part was no longer available.  At this point it looks like it must have been available through the 68 production run and then a decision to, as the old post states, go with one part for the two years.  I wonder if there is some documentation (ESL or something) somewhere on the center grille "black" only decision?

Steve

Edit:  Ed, I pulled another source I have and I think I have an answer (sort of  Smiley ) for the Canadian vs US issue.  The Canadian #'s were substituted in November of 68 with the US #'s.  So, it would seem the Canadian publication was just behind.  But that begs the question, did GM/Chevy originally plan on using the 3958003 and 3958004 part for 69 originally?  Steve
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 07:29:33 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2006, 10:54:46 PM »

Steve,

The 3919060 is the part number for the 68 (chrome) center section so I'm not sure why Rich would state that it was a "black only". It would make more sense that GM would discontinue the 68 center section and just use the 67 on both years (as it was a LOT less expensive to produce), but the parts book doesn't show that. It shows just the opposite. The 1971 price schedule I have shows the 3919060 still available, as does the 1976 schedule and the 1980 schedule. I'm assuming (and maybe incorrectly) that this part number continued to have the chrome applied, but perhaps at some point GM discontinued the chrome and just went with all black. Does anyone out there have an NOS 3919060 that they purchased in the 80's? We need to know what it looks like.

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 07:06:25 PM »

Ed

Just to make sure I stated my last thread correctly here is the link to what Rich said.  http://www.camaros.org/cgi-bin/webbbs4.33/cuscrg/cuscrg.pl?read=12908

It seems odd to me too.  It just so happens that I bought a new 3919060 from a Chev dealer (parts dept) in Northern VA on 1/25/72....it was black.  Does the '71, '76, and '80 info you have indicate that the grille is chrome?

Steve
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 09:29:33 PM »

Steve,

Okay, now I see... Rich stated that even though the part number was apparently the same (3919060), it's a GM Service Replacement part (correct 68 grille styling, but no chrome). So it does appear that the 3919060 was changed to a replacement part at the end of the 1968 model year. That's why the 9/68 P&A shows 1967 and 1968 as both using the 3919060. Boy, they didn't waste any time in getting rid of that chrome did they!!!

And no, the P&A 26 doesn't show any kind of description. It shows Part Number, Group Number, Model where used (Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, etc...), Warehouse Code (where you could order it from) and the 3 layers of pricing:

"Suggested list" - what we as a walk-in customer could buy it at, and of course, the most expensive
"Suggested Trade" - what Resellers could buy it for, or, if you had a buddy in the parts department, what you could get it at if he liked you - middle of the road pricing
"Dealer Trade" - What dealers sold to each other for - the least expenive.

These are really cool books if you like to cry over how much (or little) things cost back then! For example, in the 1971 P&A 26, the price for the 3919060 is $10.75 (List) or $6.45 (reseller and dealer)!

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2006, 08:43:23 AM »

Ed

I wonder why they were so quick to replace the chrome center but yet let the 67 black HL covers (3898135 & 6) be "converted" over to the 68 covers (3919063 & 4....chrome pieces) in 11/68 and 10/68 respectively?  I must be missing something cause it doesn't fit for me.  Also, would they not have realized 68 owners/shops would have wanted (needed) chrome center replacement centers?

Steve
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2006, 10:57:39 AM »

Steve,

John can probably answer this better than I, but in my experience, GM's policy was (and has always been) as long as they had a suitable replacement that fit, that was good enough. I also believe that it was GM's policy to have "suitable replacements" available for around 10 years after the car had left production, but again, John can answer this better than I. Finally, it also depended on how many of a particular part they still had in stock.

As an example, the 67 Left Hand Door (3898135) was discontinued before 1971 so they probably didn't have a lot of these left in stock, and siince the 68 doors were a sutiable replacement, no need to manufacture more. (The 68 Left and Right Hand Doors - 3919063 and 3919064 - were still around after 1980.)

And something that a lot of people dont' realize is that they always kept "Left Hand" parts in stock longer than "Right Hand" parts because most accidents to automobiles occure to the left side of the car.

As for the 68 Grille, the entire 68 Grille Assembly (3929281) was still available into the late 70's (dscontinued in November, 1979), but again, I have no idea if that one was the chrome one or just the correct style but black. The 67 Grille Assembly (3905745) didn't even make it to 1971.

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2006, 02:19:48 PM »

So would you get a chrome 68 HL cover (per your seconded paragraph) if you were replacing your 67 HL cover?  If so then you would get a chrome one to go with your black center RS 67 grille Huh  Right? Huh
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2006, 03:20:24 PM »

I'm not sure how that would be handled Steve. I can see where this could get messy depending on just what needed to be replaced. However, I'm sure things could be worked out...

Ed
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JohnZ
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2006, 08:00:03 PM »

Many parts listed by Service were "functional replacements" or "functional equivalents" which would service the application adequately, but were not the same in appearance as the original production part; conversely, many Service parts were the original production parts, but carried a different part number in the parts book because they came in a box with an instruction sheet and/or attaching parts, thus requiring a different part number for the "unit" that was comprised of several parts. You have to know what you're looking for and understand that the Service part isn't necessarily the same as the production part.
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Steve68
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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 07:21:08 PM »

Daniel Any CRG member with access to database

How many 68 SS/RS 396 vehicles do we have in the database?  Of those listed, are their owners, for the most part(if the info is known), current members of the Forum?  Depending on the results I may do a survey .......Thanks!

Steve
« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 07:01:11 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2006, 03:55:50 PM »

Steve,

What kind of survey are you looking to do? I have a 68 SS/RS 396 that's (supposedly) in the database. At least I submitted the info many years ago...

Ed
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mr396
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2006, 04:23:08 PM »

I have a 68 SS/RS 396 that I assume is in the data bank. I would all so like to know how many are in there.
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
Steve68
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2006, 05:28:55 PM »

Ed

It would be related to the grille discussion we have been having.  I actually have the survey prepared but if we don't have a significant number of folks that could participate then I didn't see any point in the exercise.  Wonder why I'm not getting any response to my request from CRG guys with access to database?

Steve
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2006, 05:49:12 PM »

Steve,

The CRG guys don't always read every thread. You might want to email them to get a better response.

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2006, 08:19:11 PM »

Sent email to Rich asking for some help.
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Rich
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2006, 09:32:00 PM »

About 70 68 SS/RS big-blocks in the db.  Since people change both cars and emails, we'd be lucky if the contact info was current for half of those, and there would be fewer still responses.  It's a lot of work to do this - we've done it in the past a few times, but it's like trying to herd rabbits.  What's the specific question?

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68 L30/M20 RS
mr396
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2006, 10:26:48 PM »

How many of the 70 are  L34 convertibles?
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
Steve68
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2006, 09:54:55 AM »

Ok.  Lets give it a try and see what kind of response we get anyway.  The built-in polling software only allows you to ask one question and there are several to this survey.  So I have asked all the questions here and you will need to respond with a post.  When you respond to each question give your answer as 1C, 2B, 3B, etc., whatever your case may be.  Thanks!

For 68 RS owners that have vehicles that were manufactured by GM as RS cars.

1.  Does your car currently have an original center grille?
     A. I am positive.
     B. Almost certain it does
     C. Not sure but it appears to be
     D. No
2.  Is it a:
     A. non GM grille
     B. GM RS grille
3.  The center grille currently is:
     A. Black with horizontal chrome stripes
     B. Black
     C. Other
4.  My center grille was replaced in:
     A. 1968
     B. 1969
     C. 1970
     D. 1971
     E. 1972
     F. After 1972
     G. Not sure
     H. Never (Stop survey)
5.  The replacement center grille came from:
     A. GM dealership parts department
     B. NPD, Year One, Ricks, Classic Ind, etc.
     C. Other (Delineate where it came from if you know)
6.  The replacement part number was GM 3919060
     A. Yes
     B. No
     C. Don't know

Please, no editorial comments on the questions right now.  They are asked as is for a reason.  If you don't understand the question then it's ok to ask for clarification of course.  Thanks for your participation in advance!! Smiley  (Just hope there is some Grin)

Steve
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 07:38:24 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2006, 11:18:29 AM »

Okay Steve, here's my car...

1D
2B
3B
4G
5C (Junk Yard 67 RS)
6B

Sorry for the comments but you didn't have my selection on number 5

Ed
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Steve68
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2006, 11:45:13 AM »

Thanks Ed.  Your comment is very appropriate.  The type of comments I really don't want are "why did you ask that?", and "what does that have to do with anything" kind.  Survey now, answer questions and why this and that later Smiley.  Made modification to survey question #5.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 12:22:10 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Rich
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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2006, 01:16:34 PM »

This is a case where GM didn't supercede the part, but instead altered it to apply as a service part for both 67 and 68.  GM just removed the chrome from the PN and (as the MP721A notes) added instructions to "paint as required".

I believe Steve feels certain that his original grille didn't have the chrome.  The only question really is if the change was made mid-year before end of the 68 model, and I don't believe it was, though I'd have to check the part manuals to see when the 67 grille ceased being available.
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2006, 01:49:48 PM »

Rich,

Is there a date on the MP721A?

And Steve, what's the build date of your car? Mine's 05D but like I stated above, I no longer have the original grille.

OR DO I?Huh

Where's the P/N stamping on the grille? I'll go take a look...

In the meantime, is this a 67 or 68 Grille on my car??? I've always assumed that my car had been in a front end fender bender and the grille had been replaced with one from a 67 RS. Is this not the case???

Ed

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Steve68
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« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2006, 02:22:21 PM »

You are a sly one Rich Grin.  I think the survey would help answer Rich's question though.  My original HL covers are black as well.....67 part #'s!  But.....I don't want to skew the survey in any way!!

Ed, it's 06A

Steve
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 04:44:51 PM by Steve68 » Logged
Rich
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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2006, 09:02:36 PM »

MPC721A is Dec 71.  Collectively the CRG has a number of the other Canadian MPCs, mostly through the efforts of Greg Davies.  They were issued several times per year.  I'm almost sure we've tracked this grille, but we didn't document the results.

That grille pic is so up close that I wouldn't be able to testify if it was a Camaro for sure, but assuming it is, it is a 68.  The 67 spacing is more square, and the vertical and horizontal ribs are essentially flush, whereas the 68 grille has a rectangular pattern and the horizontal ribs are significantly raised above the vertical ribs (I would assume for the purpose of easy application of the chrome to the horizontal ribs only, as it would have been difficult otherwise).

Rich
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2006, 09:20:27 PM »

Rich,

In that case, I believe Steve may be on to something here. The above is a picture of MY 68 SS/RS Grille. NO chrome. I also removed both headlight door covers and they are 67 parts! (P/N 3898136 passenger side, and 3898135 driver side)

What he's theorizing is that at some point in the 68 model year (probably very late in the model year), Chevrolet discontinued the chrome application on the RS Grille and left it black. Steve's car is like this (as is mine), and both our cars have the 68 RS Grille without the chrome, and the 67 headlamp doors. I couldn't find any part number on the Grille though...

Both our cars are very late production (05D for me and 06A for Steve), so our question is, are there any other late 68 RS cars out there with the (pictured above) center Grille and 67 headlamp doors?

Ed


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ccargo
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« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2006, 12:35:48 AM »

Dont forget to factor associated "weathering" into the variables  Undecided
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Rich
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« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2006, 07:56:43 AM »

Yes - I can tell where Steve is headed.  Interesting thought, and one that we'd need to find several very original cars of late build to deal with.

I'm interested in the idea, but I've got about 50 irons in the fire, so I can't spend a lot of intense time on this, but I'll send this back to the core group and ask for some help and a reminder of where we last left this.  If the PM can't resolve this, I'll look closer at the db to see if there are any other good-quality candidate cars for further review.  If the contacts are agreeable, I may pass on that info to you guys to go on the hunt with.

The question about weathering is a valid one and another complicating factor.

Rich
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Steve68
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« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2006, 10:26:41 AM »

I would think that there would be evidence of chrome on the center grille somewhere even if it had weathered.  I mean a speck or two at a minimum.  The other thing too would be that the headlight covers would have been chrome and maybe, if a center grille had weathered to the point it was all black or someone decided to paint it black to cover any remaining chrome, they would have had to paint their HL covers as well (if they wanted all to match that is Smiley).  Some careful application of lacquer thinner on the HL covers would answer that question.  Thanks for the interest Ed, Rich, ccargo!  Wish we could get some feed back on the above survey Sad

Steve
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 10:45:55 AM by Steve68 » Logged
mr396
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« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2006, 11:52:21 AM »

Where is the part # on the grille. My camaro is an 07C rs and has the black 68 rs grille,  I thought it was a replacement grille. If it had been replaced it was before 1975.
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
Steve68
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« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2006, 12:08:28 PM »

mr396

Don't know.  My guess is it would be either be on the top facing the upper grille part or on the bottom facing the lower grille, if it is on it at all.  Does your center to lower grille attachment have rivets or bolts?

Steve
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ccargo
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« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2006, 12:19:04 PM »

I have an 04A low mile original grille with the horizontal silver accent. I would best describe the application as a silver painted, or more likely, a hotstamped application and not chrome plated or anywhere near that luster. Just my personal opinion but I dont believe the accent had any reasonable longevity and was most likely non existant before the 5/50 warranty expired.
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« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2006, 12:27:36 PM »

Les,

I couldn't find a P/N on my grille so there may not be one. However, the easiest way to tell a 67 RS Grille from a 68 is to look at the horizontal bars. If they're the same level as the vertical bars, it's a 67. If however, they extend about about 1/32" out from the vertical bars, it's a 68. (This was where the chrome hotstamping was applied and it made it easier to do if the horizontal strip was farther out from the rest of the grille.) Also check your headlamp doors. If they're the 67 style (both horizontal and vertical strips the same depth), you might want to pull one and look for the P/N on the back. It'll be either 3898136 for the passenger's side, or 3898135 for the driver's side. Be carefull when you unscrew the 4 screws!! I broke one of mine in half from the build up of rust. (Luckily I was able to use some penetraiting oil and an extractor and get it out.) So you might want to spray some PB Blaster (or equivilant) on the threads before you remove them. Easy to access since they go through the metal door housing...

I agree with Steve regarding the weathering. I examined my grill from stem to stern and there's absolutely NO chrome (hotstamp) anywhere on it. You would think that there would be SOME reminants left, even after all these years. After all, the chrome (hotstamp) on the "SS" emblem is still there...

Rich, let me know if I can be of any help on this one. This is getting interesting!!

Ed
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 12:30:02 PM by bertfam » Logged
Steve68
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« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2006, 12:34:23 PM »

The chrome around the HL covers and around the perimeter of the upper/lower grilles are still there on my car too. Smiley  So  ccargo, using the survey your answers would be 1A, 2B, 3A, 4H right?

Steve
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 12:47:31 PM by Steve68 » Logged
mr396
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« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2006, 02:01:34 PM »

OK, my grille is riveted as is the headlight cover to the chrome with out a part number. and its rectangle that sticks up. In the 80's I painted mine silver.(and not very good I mite add)                                   
 
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1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
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« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2006, 03:05:28 PM »

mr396

Thanks for the reply with pics and explanation.  I have a couple more questions.  In the HL picture, between the areas (white squares in your pic) where the cover attaches to the housing do you see a part number.  I think I see a "C" but can't be sure.

Ed, do these rivets look like the ones on your car?

Steve
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« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2006, 03:15:28 PM »

You have good eyes. It's the # 3. maybe a part of a part number. I'll go take the other side off and see if there is a # on it. I took the drivers side off and it is riveted with the # 1. Hope it helps,.Les
« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 03:29:45 PM by mr396 » Logged

1968 camaro RS/SS L34 396 air convertible
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2006, 04:07:53 PM »

Steve,

Yes, mine is the same (see the picture below). BTW, this is the Passenger's side...

The only difference is the "shadowing" where the metal Backing Plate butts up against the plastic door. Notice the difference between my "shadowing" and Les'...

Les, are the bars on your doors flush or do the horizontal bars extend out about 1/32"? (See the next picture...)

Ed

« Last Edit: September 04, 2006, 04:16:44 PM by bertfam » Logged
Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2006, 04:15:55 PM »

Here's what I'm referring to. Notice how the horizontal and vertical bars are at the same level.

Ed

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« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2006, 04:33:34 PM »

Ed, The grille and HL door horizontal bars stick up a little. The bars are not flush. The shadowing is odd.
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« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2006, 04:50:25 PM »

Les,

In that case you have the 68 headlamp doors. Again though, NO Chrome heatstamping, right?

I think we might be able to assume that the change to the grille and doors was made somewhere between 04A (ccargo's car WITH the chrome heatstamping), and 05D (My car WITHOUT the Heatstamping). However, this is assuming there WAS a change!! Not enough info to make any kind of real determination just yet.

If we could get a few more members with RS cars to chime in here, preferrably members with cars built between 04A and 05D, we might be able to narrow this down a bit and come up with a real resolution regarding this.

Ed
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« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2006, 05:01:38 PM »

Correct Ed, Mine were black. There may have been a change in rs door backing plates, ours are different.
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« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2006, 05:36:03 PM »

Ed

Can you post a pic of your housing?  See also 68 AIM pg Z22 A7....#11 looks like yours Ed.  Les and I have "squares".  So I looked in the 67 AIM but it has the same as the 68 pattern.  Same numbers too for each year in AIM...3914747-8.  Must have been a design change in there.  Does not seem to significant to our discussion though.

Steve

Edit:  On second thought maybe it is.  The housing that is.  Changes being made in the grille, changes being made in housings?
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« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2006, 05:57:15 PM »

Follow-up:  I have checked my references and there are no (thru 1971) removed, transferred, or substituted part(s) for 3914747-8.

Steve
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« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2006, 06:21:22 PM »

Steve,

I don't believe the backing plates would make a difference in the overall scheme of things. Especially since my car is the same as yours and Les' (with the exception of the backing plates and the fact that Les has the 68 door covers while you and I have the 67).

Here's a picture though (passenger side with the drivers side the same design...)

Ed

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« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2006, 06:35:23 PM »

Ed

Looks nice and straight, no "fix" anywhere that I can see.  If there was an accident (HL cover replaced with 67) and this part was damaged and "fixed" but not replaced in front end collision, then no sign of it here!

Steve
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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2006, 08:19:50 PM »

Mark's 68 RS/SS

In a post you started regarding a recent purchase you made you stated the following "It is a 68 RS SS 396/375 and the previous owner had repainted it black from the original Z-Z British Green code, removed all the badging and wheel and rocker panel chrome trim, and blacked out the grille.  I am putting the SS badging and RS chrome back on along with a new grille with chrome leading edges where the factory correct is painted silver.  The grille should look like the one on the 68 RS SS on the front of Chevrolet By The Numbers 1965-69. "  I was wondering if you had changed out the grille yet.  If not could you contribute to this thread?  We would appreciate it Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2006, 12:53:48 AM »

I have an original 1968 L35 convertible delivered new to Canada in St. John's NFLD. It is March 68 ship date and documented by George Zapora in 1983. I still have the original grille and it and the headlamp doors are all heatstamped chrome. The original owner who i knew and who frequently lent me the car till I bought it in 1972, had painted the grille black but after weathering the chrome came right back through.

GM Canada delivered a replacement center section to my dealer in 1982 and it was all black. I never put it on the car. I will see if I can find the box and PN.

The easiest way to check if the grille is a replacement is to look at the originality of the rivets holding the assembly together. The orginals are truss head aluminium holllw shank with set backs. Since replacement grilles came as a plastic section, the aluminium mouldings had to be reattached or renewed and pop rivets were supplied for this procedure.

Arno
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« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2006, 05:04:15 PM »

Thanks for the input Arno.  The reattachments were with pop rivets and nuts and bolts as well.  Your build date is ?  Thanks!!

Steve
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« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2006, 05:08:41 PM »

Hey Charles Webster nice looking car on the CRG home page.  I couldn't help notice that it is listed as a SS/RS.  Care to help us out with the survey?  We would really appreciate it!!!!

Steve
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« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2006, 08:50:24 PM »

I haven't forgotten you all, but I can't tell you how busy I am, and you're plugging away at this fine without me.  The more you refine things the better.  If you can home in on a particular few weeks as you seem to be trending to, I can select a chunk of RS cars (no need to focus only on SS/RS) from the database (that Kurt and Daniel patiently maintain) and do an emailing to see who (with valid non-bouncing emails) will respond and still have their car and are willing to help further, and pass those on to Steve/Ed.  Then we can also do the same thing with some selected spot-checks of high-quality original data cars from that point to the end of production to make sure the trend is consistent.  I would recommend you also track NOR vs LOS to ensure there wasn't a plant supplier difference.

Welcome to CRG research... Wink

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« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2006, 09:03:06 PM »

OK all you 68 RS folks out there lets have that data!!  Smiley   Lets start with cars built between 04A and 06A to start with and narrow it down from there.  Be sure to ID manufacturing plant as NOR or LOS.  Thanks!!!

Steve
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« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2006, 11:25:08 PM »

Rich,

In the WHEELCOVER THREAD you mentioned the Ray Miller book, "Camaro! Chevy's Classy Chassis" and brought up a good point regarding the timeline of that book. April of 1981 was the first printing, which means that the research and pictures were done in 1980 and perhaps even earlier. This means that the 68's referenced were approximately 12 years old. I looked at the RS Grilles of the two cars that still had the original California black plates, and noted the color of the grille -vs- the license plate number. Here's what I got:

License VIW 548 (Page 98 through 105) Black Grille (appears to be chromed on page 100 but I believe that to be due to the lighting.)
License WBH 171 (Page 96) Black Grille

Both of these cars are "San Diego County" cars (City Chevrolet, located in San Diego, and Weseloh Chevrolet, Located in Carlsbad), and going by the License Plate Numbers, both of these cars are late 68 models as well. "V" and "W" License Plates were mid 68 releases for San Diego County. (My first 68, which I bought in February 1976 from the original owner, was also a "W" issue and it was a June (Los Angeles) built car. And now that I think of it, this car (also a SS/RS) had the black grille because I remember other 68 RS owners telling me it was wrong at the time!!

Anyway, it's staring to appear that the late 68 cars may have received the black grille. Of course, either or both of these cars in the book may have had their grilles changed at some point, so this data could be skewed. But if not, it's just more evidence to support Steve's theory.

Oh yeah, my current car is also a Los Angeles built car, built in 05D. Les? Steve? Are your cars Norwood or Los Angeles?

Ed
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« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2006, 06:59:23 AM »

Norwood built.
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« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2006, 11:37:03 AM »

Les' is also a Norwood car and it's currently FOR SALE ON EBAY!! WHY Les, WHY WHY WHY?Huh?

Ed
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« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2006, 12:44:21 PM »

Ed

Looks like we can expect some input from Mark and Kevin in the next few days.....GREAT !!  Just wish we could get more to chime in.

Steve
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« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2006, 05:26:57 PM »

Mark and Kevin

Quote
Steve:

Yes we have swapped the grille out.  i will check the part number on it and the headlight covers.  Going out of town so it will be towards the end of the week before I look at this.

Mark

Quote
...Steve, ...I'll read up on the survey thread, ...will surely provide info...
 
  Kevin

Guys I hate to be a pest but any possibility of helping us out with this at this time................please?  Smiley Smiley Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2006, 06:29:23 PM »

Quote
Les' is also a Norwood car and it's currently FOR SALE ON EBAY!! WHY Les, WHY WHY WHY??

Ed

What's the word Les......did you sell?

Steve
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« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2006, 08:44:37 PM »

We have had some new folks join CRG since the start of this threat so I thought it would be good to ping it in case they were 68 RS owners and could contribute.  BTW, Kevin and Mark, did you forget us?  Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2006, 10:51:06 AM »

Steve:

Thanks for the offer on the pics.  I will take you up on this.  When i got my car the previous guy had blacked out the grille.  We replaced it with the chromed grille.  Pics attached.  I can not see any part numbers on the old grille.  Where are they located?

Mark

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 DSC00120.JPG (60.37 KB, 640x480 - viewed 10 times.)

 68ssrs396375m22car 008-1.JPG (38.92 KB, 600x450 - viewed 10 times.)
 
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Mark

Mark

Here is the picture.  Hope it is what you were looking for.  Also, I would like to move the discussion regarding the grille to that thread if we can so as to keep it all together (that's here folks).  I will copy your response and post it there; so if you don't mind respond there please.  The numbers are on the back of the headlight covers and we don't know if the center grille has a number on it.  Look on the top and bottom edge for us and see if you see one there.  Thanks a bunch Mark.  Oh, what is your build date and is your car  NOR or LOS?

Steve
 
Ed, I couldn't get the pic's to transfer over.  Don't known if you want to try but it would be nice to have them here if you what to take a shot at it.  Steve
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« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2006, 12:04:09 PM »

...Didn't forget you Steve : ), ...had a busy week, ...then fall Carlisle, ...and then a rainy weekend.
   It is actually sunny here today, ...so I will be able to back the car out and take a look at things (after I read your other post to see what I'm going to look for Wink
 
   Kevin



We have had some new folks join CRG since the start of this threat so I thought it would be good to ping it in case they were 68 RS owners and could contribute. BTW, Kevin and Mark, did you forget us? Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2006, 03:03:39 PM »

Thanks for the note Kevin.  We will be anxiously awaiting.  Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2006, 03:44:31 PM »

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Steve:

Thanks for the pic.  It's exactly what i neede to know.  My car is  an 06C car built in Los Angeles.  I have provided some documentation to Kurt as it is a numbers matching L78 (not restamped) so he has a pic of the block stamp and the cowl tag.

I am checking this from work and I will check the other thread when i get home tonight.  I checked the headloght covers this morning but it was early and I don't drink coffee so maybe I overlooked the part numbers.  I'll look again.

Mark

Quote
Mark

The HL cover numbers are on the back side in the middle on mine and I think on Ed's and Les' too.  Thanks for taking another look.

Steve

Decided to paste the posts from this thread http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1203.msg6891#msg6891 that are about this thread (68 grille) here to help keep some consistency to things.

Steve
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« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2006, 05:02:03 PM »

Steve:

There are no part numbers on the back of my HL covers.  See pics attached.  The only number I can see on the back side are a mold cavity number.  It is interesting to see that there are visible sink marks from the injection molding on the driver side, but none visible on the passenger side.  I also can nmot find any part numbers on the grille.

I also have a note on the fan pic thread.  If I could trouble you for one more pic of the fan from farther back?

Thanks
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« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2006, 06:22:11 PM »

Mark

Do you recall when the "black" grille was replaced was it held in place with rivets?  Was the center grille riveted at the top and bottom with rivets or held in place by bolts?  If rivets were they pop rivets?

Steve
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« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2006, 06:38:56 PM »

Steve:

The resto shop I had the car delivered to originally did this work so I diod not see it.  Based on the ragged edges of the mounting holes I would say it was riveted.  Look clsely at the pics above and you will see that the driver side door is mounted to the outside flange by pop rivets and the passenger side is regular rivets.  The driver side also has a crack in it visible from the back on the lower right.  All this combined with the obvious sink marks from the molding and I am guessing this was replaced at some point, maybe by lower quality after market?

Mark
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« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2006, 07:13:10 PM »

Mark

Thanks for the reply.  Clear something up for me if you will.  The previous owner, did he tell you the grille had chrome on it and he painted over it?  If that is true, have you tried to remove the black paint to see if the chrome is under there?  If you have not, would you mind doing that to confirm that it did have chrome.

Steve
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« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2006, 08:26:09 PM »

Steve:

I did not ask him and he did not tell me but I do maintain occasional contact with him and will try to remember to ask.  I plan to try to remove the paint at some point over the winter.  I figure this would be a good thing to do some Sunday while watching football.  We have looooong winters here in Central New York so I have some time.  Not sure yet what I will use as i don't want to hurt the plastic.  I think it is ABS and some chemicals will degrade the ABS so I want to be careful.  I'll have to do some research to see if paint thinner will degrade ABS.  It is my understanding that chromed is correct.

Mark
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« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2006, 08:49:46 PM »

Mark

If you are correct and the grille was riveted there is a chance that it could be the original.  That said the grille may have been black and not been painted.  That's why I asked and thus the research.  It looks right now as though a change could have taken place around 04? but we need more input from folks.  A small amount of lacquer thinner lightly applied will not harm the grille from my experience.

Steve
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« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2006, 04:19:37 AM »

Steve:

I checked the AIM page 427 and it shows the following:  The headlight covers P/N 3919063-4 are attached to  the plate assembly P/N 3914747-8 by 4 screws P/N 9425501.  The headlight covers are attached to the mouldings (sic) P/N 3919155-6 with rivets P/N 3899834.  Page 5 in the AIM shows the specified method for uspetting the rivets when attaching metal and plastic parts.  Sorry but I should have checked this first.  I do not know if the factory ever used pop rivets, maybe JohnZ or others could help with this.

Mark
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« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2006, 05:25:05 PM »

Mark

Yea, I would think John would know.  If you review the original post and replies 1 through 11 you will get a good picture of where we have been so far with the part numbers and why we continue to solicit and remain on the prowl for more car data.  We really just need a few more points to narrow this down I think......then maybe Rich can help us out with some specific leads.

Steve
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« Reply #76 on: October 04, 2006, 08:08:34 PM »

Steve:

I finally got the chance to catch up on all the posts.  Sorry it took me so long.  I now see where you are going with all this and will contact the previous owner to get more input.  I am traveling for a couple of days so it may be the weekend before I get back to you on his answer.

Mark
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« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2006, 09:16:40 AM »

Someone may want to contact board member Tinkerr he has my old 68 RS/SS 396 Car. The car has 43k miles and he is restoring it, it is an April car and if memory serves (I sold it in the early 90's) it has the original grille and headlamp covers.
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« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2006, 04:47:43 PM »

Thanks!!  We'll take a shot at it.

Steve
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« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2006, 06:22:04 PM »

Steve and all the rest:

I contacted the previous owner who had my 68 RS SS since 72.  He said the grille and headlight covers were the original parts.  He also said they were chrome before he blacked them out.  My car is an 06C car VIN 124378L344xxx.  How does this date and vin compare to those of you who have later built LOS cars?

Mark
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« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2006, 07:04:09 PM »

Mark

The only LOS car response beside yours we have so far is the one from Ed.  See Replys 34, 39, and 41 for Les' NOR 07 built car.  Could I get you to post a picture of the front side of the old grille taken at a slight angle either up/down or sideways and the same of the HL covers.  I would like to see the pattern please.  Thanks!

Steve
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« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2006, 11:25:14 AM »

Steve,

In response to your survey.                                       Build date 04A
1.B
2.B
3.A
4.H
Additionally the left cover has a very small #1 in the center and the right has a very small #3. I could not find a part # on the grille as it's still riveted together, not that it's in great shape to reuse(cracks and such). I'm not to the point in the resto where I'm ready to tackle the grille. Hope this helps Paul
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« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2006, 01:36:38 PM »

I thought that you could help them out Paul...
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« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2006, 04:08:57 PM »

Thanks so much for helping out Paul and again to you firstgen for the lead.  Without you guys taking time out of your day to look and provide us this info we would never be able to resolve this.  We sure could use some data from 04B and on right now.  Again, you guys are what make the RESEARCH part of CRG possible.  Hats off to ya!!!

Steve
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« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2006, 08:22:03 PM »

Steve:

Here are some pics of the center grille.

Paul, as someone who has been in the injection molding business for 22 years I look at the small numbers you see on the back side of the headlicht covers and say they were mold cavity numbers.  JohnZ may be able to verify this?

Mark
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« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2006, 10:01:41 PM »

Mark, it looks like the horizontal bars are slightly above the vertical bars where they cross each other in middle the picture.  Can you confirm.  Also, just looking at the pictures, I just have to ask, because the grille does not look like it has paint on it, but, and PLEASE be patient with me on this, are you sure it has been painted?

Steve
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« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2006, 06:51:31 AM »

Steve:

Yes the horizantal bars are raised to facilitate chroming, whether it was plating or hot stamping.  And yes, the previous owner told me the grille was chromed.  Everything he has told me has proven out to be true.  He owned the car since 1972 and he is a practicing Christian.  I believe him.

Here is the question and his responses on an email I sent him

1.)                 Do you know if the grille and headlight covers are original to the car?

2.)                 Did they have the chrome on them before you blacked them out or were they always black?

1 I think so
2 yes, painted over bright polished alum or stainless. I ran across a neat item called an eraser at the auto paint store. you put it in a drill motor to remove decals on paint works good you might try it on the grill

Steve, that is as good as it gets for the information on the grille.  It may not be what you wanted to hear, but it is the truth as best as I know it.

Mark
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« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2006, 08:20:14 AM »

Steve:

Here are some pics of the center grille.

Paul, as someone who has been in the injection molding business for 22 years I look at the small numbers you see on the back side of the headlicht covers and say they were mold cavity numbers. JohnZ may be able to verify this?

Mark

I agree - generally if there are individual numbers or characters molded into the back side of an injection-molded plastic part, they're mold cavity identifiers.
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« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2006, 09:18:50 AM »

Mark

Thanks for checking out the height on the horizontal bars.  Thanks too for relaying what the previous owner had to say about the grille.  I of course have no reason to disbelieve him or you and would never want you to even think that I have started down that road.  Just trying to do the best research possible long distance; I'm not disappointed, the grille is what it is  Smiley  but yours is the only one so far after 05D that apparently has the chrome.  Thanks again for double checking and responding.

John, do you have any idea why the ones with the mold cavity numbers don't have a part number too?

Steve
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« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2006, 10:01:33 AM »

John, do you have any idea why the ones with the mold cavity numbers don't have a part number too?

Steve

Nope - generally it was optional on the drawing for the part number to appear on the part, unless Engineering had a reason for it to be required.
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« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2006, 07:24:26 PM »

Steve:

Glad to be of some assistance.  As a newbie both to this site and to working on cars in general I'm just glad I could do more than sit idly by.  It's amazing to see and appreciate all the expertise and information on this and the TC site and all of you who so obviously care so much about these great cars.  It's great to see people so willing to help each other out.

Mark
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« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2006, 09:42:34 PM »

Mark and Paul

I want to double check.  Your headlight covers have raised horizontal bars and on the back side the left side has a 1 (driver) and the right side (passenger) has a 3.  Is that correct.  I'm about to conclude something here and I just want to make sure I have the data correct.  Thanks!

Steve
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« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2006, 10:41:08 PM »

Steve,

More evidence that the grille was black by 05D.

I've been conversing with Jack Enright via email, and he has a Norwood built 68 RS/SS 396/375 with an assembly date of 05D. His grille is black and has the raised vertical bar.

More fuel for the fire!

Here's a picture of his grille...

Ed

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« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2006, 01:23:38 AM »

Steve,

Your prior post is correct regarding the horizontal bars and the #'s. Has it been determined definitively the horizontal bars are chrome in color? I was of the belief they were painted silver.

Paul
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« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2006, 11:20:24 AM »

Paul,

It's actually a pocess called Vacuum Metalizing. All plastic parts like the Grille, Air Diverter "Balls", 69 Door Lock Knobs, etc... use this process. Since you can't "chrome plate" plastic, Vacuum Metalizing is used to "simulate" chrome. You can read more about the process HERE.

Ed
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« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2006, 07:11:36 PM »

Steve:

My drivers side is cavity 4 and my pasenger side is cavity 3.  I am guessing they were either four cavity molds or more likely they were in a 2+2 mold where two cavities are the left and two cavities are the right side but they are molded in the same mold at the same time.

Mark
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« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2006, 06:28:26 PM »

Ed, Paul, and Mark

Guys, I have been out of town and just got back on line.  Ed, great find!!  I'm curious, high level of confidence the grille is the original with raised horizontal bars?  Any info on the HL covers?  Paul, thanks for the response.  I was about to make a conclusion about the HL covers based on the data collected so far but with Mark providing a number 4 for his passenger side HL cover I'm hesitant to do so now.  Mark, again thanks for responding.  Your car seems to be turning up with some slightly different "characteristics" than the others so far.  I'm not saying they are right or wrong mind you just that they are "different" on the limited amount of data collected so far.   Makes it interesting.  Smiley

Steve
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« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2006, 07:03:36 PM »

Yes Steve. Fairly certain the grille is original. Of course, after 40 years, no one can be 100% sure, but we have to go with what we believe.

Ed
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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2006, 08:47:10 PM »

Paul

May I ask what was the original engine size in your vehicle?

Steve
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« Reply #99 on: October 14, 2006, 08:31:44 AM »

Steve, Pauls car has the numbers matching 325hp 396.
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« Reply #100 on: October 14, 2006, 11:32:26 AM »

L35, thanks firstgen.

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« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2006, 02:22:29 PM »

Guys:

I got some lacquer thinner and worked on the headlight cover a little bit and there is definitely chrome under the black paint.  Here are some pics.  To refresh your memory my car is an 06C car.

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« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2006, 05:28:04 PM »

Thanks for the picture Mark.  It looks like it is cleaning up very nicely around the perimeter.  Is that chrome I see exposed in the face of the HL cover (horizontal bars) in a line approximately two vertical bars over from the left running from near the top to near the bottom or is that camera flash?

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« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2006, 06:36:33 PM »

Mark,

Yes, what we're looking for is chrome on the horizontal strips themselves. It's difficult to tell, but it appears that the "shine" we see on your horizontal strips is either chrome, or flash from the camera. Which one is it?

Thanks
Ed
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« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2006, 08:49:17 PM »

Guys:

Most definitely chrome on the horizontal bars.  Of course the perimeter cleans up easier because the black paint is on the metal piece there.  It is harder to clean up the horizontal bars and I had to resort to a Q-Tip with the lacquer thinner on it but there is definitely chrome on the horizontal bars.  The shame of this is that these are original parts and it is totally not practical to clean the grille and HL covers up so I will either just hold on to them or sell them to let someone else do what thy want with them.

Sorry this may not be what you want to hear Steve, but it is what it is.

Mark
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« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2006, 09:18:36 PM »

Yep, it is is what it is  Smiley.  I could not tell if you had cleaned the paint off or if it was camera flash.......really!  Thanks for taking the time to do that and to post the pic.  Got another question for you.  Do you have any idea if the guy you bought your car from would know what his other 68 L78 SS/RS car build date was?

Steve
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« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2006, 09:23:16 PM »

Steve:

I believe the VIN on his other car that got wrecked was 124378L312627.  I think this brings the build date to November 1967 but will have to check the numbers.  I do know that he did not use the grille from that car as it was not usable.

Mark
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« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2006, 09:34:31 PM »

Yea, was just looking for another data set but that would be too early to be useful if that was the case I think.  Wouldn't hurt checking with him if you wanted and to see if he still had the old grille or tossed it.  We are still waiting on KevinK to provide his data.
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« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2006, 09:39:10 PM »

Steve:

He does not have the old grille as he sent me all the Camaro parts he had along wiht the car.  I think he wadded his original car up pretty good as he said there wasn't much of anything left that was straight.  One door and one trunk lid was pretty much it.

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« Reply #109 on: October 21, 2006, 11:43:19 AM »

KevinK

What is the build date on your car?  I know you are busy and having a difficult time finding time to help us out on this but if you could let us know your build date we might not even need your data.  Thanks!

Steve
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« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2006, 08:12:26 PM »

If I'm thinking of the right car, Kevin's car is 04C.
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« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2006, 08:53:56 PM »

Thanks Kurt for responding.  If that indeed is the case then his data would be very important to us at this point in time.

Steve
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« Reply #112 on: October 24, 2006, 10:41:39 PM »

Steve,

I got your email but I didn't see any numbers on my grille except a number "1" between the two circles (see the picture). I would have more guys check their grilles though. you can't go by mine alone.

By the way, what were the numbers you found on your grille?

Ed

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« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2006, 05:15:43 AM »

Guys:

The "circles" are ejector pin marks for where the part is ejected from the mold.  The number 1 is just the cavity identification.  Mine has the same cavity number.  Due to the size of the part I would guess this is most likely a one cavity mold, however there may have been more than one mold.

Mark
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« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2006, 04:08:22 PM »

Mine also has a 1 but I would like to hear from the others too.  Especially the pre 05D RS cars.

Steve
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« Reply #115 on: October 26, 2006, 11:22:59 PM »

Steve,

Got your email.  Here's my response to your questions (survey):
For 68 RS owners that have vehicles that were manufactured by GM as RS cars.

1.  Does your car currently have an original center grille?
     C. Not sure but it appears to be

2.  Is it a:
-> Sorry - not sure if it is GM or non-GM

3.  The center grille currently is:
     B. Black

4.  My center grille was replaced in:
     G. Not sure

5.  The replacement center grille came from:
     B. NPD, Year One, Ricks, Classic Ind, etc.
-> I believe the grille was replaced.  I don't have this data from previous owner

6.  The replacement part number was GM 3919060
      C. Don't know


This thread is pretty large but I'll try to read thru most of the threads to determine where to find the replacement part number.  I'll be in touch. 

By the way, my car is a Los Angeles built 68-RS.  Build date is 02A (1st week of February 1968)

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« Reply #116 on: October 26, 2006, 11:52:22 PM »

The grille is a replacement based on the rivets in the photo.

Arno
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« Reply #117 on: October 27, 2006, 09:47:48 AM »

Arno

How about looking to see if you have any numbers in the area of concern for us on your car.

Steve
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« Reply #118 on: October 27, 2006, 11:56:05 AM »

Don

Thanks for the reply.  Look at reply number 112 above by Ed.  If you will look between the two "circles" which are in the picture of his grille and let us know what numbers, if any, you see that would help too.  Also, is your center grille held in place (center to upper and/or lower) with rivets or bolts/screws?  As you read through the rest of the posts you will see we have also asked for height of horizontal bars to the vertical ones and headlight cover part numbers or mold cavity # (as applies to your car).   If your inclined pictures are always nice  Smiley too.  Thanks again for your efforts and help.  It is appreciated!!

Steve
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« Reply #119 on: October 29, 2006, 09:12:14 PM »

Steve:

Just t clarify one thing on my cenetr grille, it is attached to the outer frame by bolts, not rivets.  Sorry for any confusion as I reported and sent pics earlier that my headlight covers were attached with rivets but did not report on my center grille.  My AIM looks like it shows that the grille is attached to the outer frame by rivets, then that is attached to the body by bolts and nuts.

Mark
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« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2006, 10:39:36 PM »

Mark

I am a little confused.  I believe the cars were manufactured with the center grille attached to the upper and lower grilles using rivets, the upper was attached to the header panel with nuts, and the lower to the valance with bolts/nuts.  Is that what you are saying you have on your car?  Thanks.

Steve
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« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2006, 06:04:16 AM »

Steve:

Sad to say that my grille is not atached with rivets but with screws, and the top screws and nuts are different than the bottom ones.  Here are a couple of pics.  Based on this I guess we have to conclude that the previous owner was incorrect and that the Grille had been replaced at some time.

Mark
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« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2006, 07:18:26 PM »

Mark

I at this point would have to agree that the center grille has most likely been replaced.  But that's based on more than just the fact the nuts/bolts are holding the center to the upper and lower grilles.  I also note with some interest the picture showing the lower grille.  As I stated in my post "and the lower to the valance with bolts/nuts."   That's what the AIM calls for on page 424, parts 6 & 8.  I see yours has a screw/u-nut that holds the lower to the valance.  My car also has this screw/u-nut set-up!  Ed, what does your car have?

Steve
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« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2006, 07:30:23 PM »

Steve,

Mine's the same. Screw and U-nut set-up.

Ed
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« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2006, 07:36:56 PM »

Far out!  I guess we have found a change in the actual manufacturing from the AIM inadvertently here as I know my set-up is definitely original.

Steve
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« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2006, 10:28:15 AM »

Steve,

Mine's the same. Screw and U-nut set-up.

Ed


Ed, does yours also have the straight-slotted pan head screws shown in the photo above? I've never seen a straight-slotted screw used anywhere on a car.
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« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2006, 05:16:20 PM »

John

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page I was referring to the screw at the very bottom of the picture.  Not the one where you can see the head but the one with just the treads showing (the head on mine is not a straight-slotted pan head type)....it's the one that would hold the lower grille to the valance panel.  Where the slotted screw is there should be rivets.

Steve
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« Reply #127 on: October 31, 2006, 07:59:34 PM »

John,

No, my screws aren't flat head, but phillips head screws. They're also about an inch to an inch and a quarter long. The grille itself is held in with rivets. The screws attach the assembly to the valence.

Here's a picture...

Ed

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« Reply #128 on: November 05, 2006, 02:18:46 PM »

And by the way John, what was the official policy on hardware? I know that some things were called out in the AIM, but did the line have any leeway in things like sheet metal screws, nuts, bolts, etc...? I'm talking basic hardware here.

I'm also assuming that there was more than one supplier for this type of thing so is it possible (like in this case) to have one car with one type of sheet metal screw and another car with a different type? Even at the same plant?

Ed
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« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2006, 12:32:03 PM »

And by the way John, what was the official policy on hardware? I know that some things were called out in the AIM, but did the line have any leeway in things like sheet metal screws, nuts, bolts, etc...? I'm talking basic hardware here.

I'm also assuming that there was more than one supplier for this type of thing so is it possible (like in this case) to have one car with one type of sheet metal screw and another car with a different type? Even at the same plant?

Ed


Ed - Mis-usage of fasteners would result in lots of inventory problems (shortage of the one mis-used, excess of the one that was supposed to be used, etc.); although there were always multiple suppliers of fasteners, they looked the same (except for headmarks), and the same fastener from different suppliers carried the same part number on the box. Line repairmen occasionally used a "different" fastener for quick repairs, but regular line operations were only supplied with the fasteners released in the Bill of Material.
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« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2006, 07:23:33 PM »

Rich

Quote
Yes - I can tell where Steve is headed.  Interesting thought, and one that we'd need to find several very original cars of late build to deal with.

I'm interested in the idea, but I've got about 50 irons in the fire, so I can't spend a lot of intense time on this, but I'll send this back to the core group and ask for some help and a reminder of where we last left this.  If the PM can't resolve this, I'll look closer at the db to see if there are any other good-quality candidate cars for further review.  If the contacts are agreeable, I may pass on that info to you guys to go on the hunt with.

To update you on our progress so far (The quote is part of a previous post from you.).   We are not getting any additional data at this point even from folks that we have sent a personal message to asking for some very specific information that we thought would greatly help us.  Some folks have been very supportive responding to every request and others only partially.  Others say they have "not forgot us" but apparently have and some promise to get back to us but never do.  Such is life.  It's too bad because I feel they could have really helped us out. They most likely don't have the interest in this that some of us do so no hard feelings.  Anyway, if you have any time at all could you look at the db for "other good-quality candidate cars for further review" and pass that on to us?  I believe we know where/what to look for if we had some cars owners willing to participate.

Steve
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« Reply #131 on: November 07, 2006, 11:52:03 PM »

Quote
Ed - Mis-usage of fasteners would result in lots of inventory problems (shortage of the one mis-used, excess of the one that was supposed to be used, etc.); although there were always multiple suppliers of fasteners, they looked the same (except for headmarks), and the same fastener from different suppliers carried the same part number on the box. Line repairmen occasionally used a "different" fastener for quick repairs, but regular line operations were only supplied with the fasteners released in the Bill of Material.

Thanks John. As usual, you're a fountain of information!!

So I guess the screws on my car are not original since Mark and Steve have the same type and mine are different.

Now... What about my top nuts?

Ed


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« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2006, 01:40:01 AM »

Steve,

I'm sorry for the delay in replying, I've been busy. My grille has a 1 between the circles consistent with the other grilles. I suppose this is a mute point, as you've moved beyond that discussion.

Paul
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« Reply #133 on: November 08, 2006, 01:21:32 PM »

Thanks John. As usual, you're a fountain of information!!

So I guess the screws on my car are not original since Mark and Steve have the same type and mine are different.

Now... What about my top nuts?

Ed

Can't give you an answer to that one, Ed - I'm not familiar with the details of '68 grilles.
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« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2006, 07:21:42 PM »

Paul

Thank you very much for your response and info.  We appreciate it.  It is critical info and it's better late then never.  Also, just to clarify, we have not moved beyond any discussion on this at all.  I posted the above to Rich because we were not getting any further input even when we were contacting folks one on one asking for specific info.  What is disappointing to me is that some of them provided info that put us on, what I believe may be, the verge of a break through and then they just sort of disappeared on us.  Again, I'm not upset with them as there may be circumstances or reasons for us not hearing back from them......some may even be beyond their control.  I certainly want and hope that anyone who has a 68 RS will provide us with data. Smiley  Thanks again for helping out!

Steve
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« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2006, 07:14:37 PM »

Ed

Those look like they have the, let see...... what's it called, integral built in washer?  If so I don't think they are like mine.  I will have to check and get back to you.  Mark, how about yours?

Steve
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« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2006, 08:53:45 PM »

Mine has a star washer under the nut.  My AIM is out in my getter so I am not sure what is correct.

Mark
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« Reply #137 on: November 10, 2006, 05:04:38 PM »

Ed & Mark

Mine also has a star (lock) washer under a regular nut like Mark's.  All of this part of the grille on my car is original.  The AIM I have does not show a lock washer though.  I have been thinking about the noted changes like the one in the above posts.
Quote
Far out!  I guess we have found a change in the actual manufacturing from the AIM inadvertently here as I know my set-up is definitely original.

Steve
The AIM parts were obviously changed from time to time as noted in the "Revision Record" section in the lower right hand corner of every page.  I don't know how many AIM versions are out there but we are always referring to it as if there is only one.  Is there, I'm not sure ...........the only way that I can see right now, to be sure we are comparing apples to apples, would be to state what page, drawing (DWG), DATE, and perhaps the REF (all 3 in lower left corner of page) when referring to something.  It could be that a later version/drawing called for screws/"u" nut and lock washer/nut vs what the page 424 DWG 6-14-67 DATE Rel. 6-16 AIM drawing shows.  Looking at some of the pages some of these parts got changed in a short periods of time.  So Ed's screws could be original and a change could have been made (supply problem...who knows) to the type Mark and I have.  Without an "updated" AIM how could you tell?  P&A's... maybe?

Question for you guys......ours cars are considered "late" models right?   So do you think that it is likely or not that there is the probability of part changes by the time of the manufacturing of our cars?  I think we are seeing some good evidence of such with the the "attachment hardware".  Kind of takes us full circle and back to the center grille question Smiley   

Steve
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« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2006, 10:23:03 PM »

...I guess I'm a little late on this  Wink
 
  1D
  2B ( ...really not 100% sure)
  3B
  4F
  5C (don't remember...)
  6C
 
    My car is a "04C" "NOR" built car.
 
   ...I'll have to pull the cover to get a look between the circles for any numbers...
 
  Kevin
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« Reply #139 on: November 13, 2006, 08:56:14 PM »

I'm wondering if it isn't time to summarize where you are, and start a new thread (reference back to this one for anyone joing late).

I'm hoping I have a few minutes over the next few days to dig a little into the db and make some suggestions.  I haven't followed the last bit too closely, so what is the time period and specific type of car that you would still be looking for?

Rich
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« Reply #140 on: November 14, 2006, 05:02:49 PM »

There is a yenko.net member with a 68 RS/Z that was unrestored and did have the original grille in 1990.
Lives in CT... I have pics of the car before it was restored and it had the horizontal silver bars in the grille.
I just sent him an email with a link to the thread.

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« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2006, 10:17:39 PM »

Thanks firstgen.  You have been very helpful on this project.  Look forward to getting a post from him.  We can use the data.

Steve
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« Reply #142 on: November 14, 2006, 10:25:56 PM »

A somewhat quick post on what we have to date, eliminating the most “uncertain” data, is a possible change between the 04A to 06A time frame.  We see, in the cavity mold area (between the circles) on the back (engine side)/driver side/upper side of the grille, some letters with numbers versus a single number.  Several of the survey participant’s cars appear to have original rivets attaching the center to the upper or lower grille providing a higher level of credibility toward originality.  With accessibility to, and visibility of, what is in the “between the circles” area, the observation/reporting of what is found along with the originality of the rivets so far shows the most promise of being used as a quick means for classifying a grille as pre or post change.  Additionally, we have also noted the use of and the mixing of 1967 and 1968 head light (HL) covers on these period vehicles.  The HL covers are important to us because they also can be original (chrome or black) and carry a year traceable part number.  Some of the HL covers don’t have a part number but do have a number.  That number seems to correlate to the driver or passenger side and so far looks to be a 1968 part.  The data so far shows the use of 67 black HL covers during this period.  We know for instance, of a 04A car with 68 HL covers on both sides, a 05D car with 67 HL covers being used on both sides, and a 06A car with a mix of 67/68 HL covers. All covers and grilles are black on these cars.  If chrome grilles were being used, then why would original black HL covers be on a car too?  One other apparent and interesting observation is that the attachment hardware on a couple of the cars appears to be original (know to be in one case) but is different than that shown in the AIM (pg 424, DWG 6-14-67, DATE REL. 6-16, UPC Z 22, A4).  We don’t have enough info at this time to tie any attachment changes that were made to any grille changes.  It begs the question though if changes were made in the grille, chrome to black, did they also change some of the attachments/hardware?  We do know the attachment changes noted so far are on cars with black grilles.  We have a mix of NOR and LOS cars in the survey with LOS cars being about 1/3 of the total. 

Some folks provided partial info and we could fill in some critical areas if we could reestablish contact with them.  I for one would like more data so we could be as definitive as possible on this.  Special thanks to all who went out of their way to provide data…we appreciate it!!

Steve
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« Reply #143 on: November 15, 2006, 08:50:48 AM »

There is a yenko.net member with a 68 RS/Z that was unrestored and did have the original grille in 1990.
Lives in CT... I have pics of the car before it was restored and it had the horizontal silver bars in the grille.
I just sent him an email with a link to the thread.



I own the car that James is referring to and would be happy to help if I can.

 First the bad news.  When I purchased this car in 2001 the original grille had been repainted all black and there was a damaged section so I replaced it with GM parts with silver applied to the horizonatal bars.  I gave the grille and trim pieces to a friend for his car and that car was subsequently sold so I do not have that grille to refer to. 

Now to the good news.  I have a photo of the car from 1990 showing the original grille with the silver horizonatal bars.  I can post that if that would help.  I also did a fair amount of research to recreate as close to possible the rivets that fasten the upper and lower trim pieces to the center grille and also the rivets that fasten the trim pieces to the headlight doors.  I believe I have some of these fasteners left over and if I can find them I can post photos, if anyone is interested and if my cheap camera will work.

Also if it is helpful I can dig up photos taken in 1968 of a family owned 68 RS SS 396/375 car showing the front grille. 

The Z is a Norwood built (July 68) car and the 396/375 car is a Norwood built (Oct/ Nov 67) car.
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« Reply #144 on: November 15, 2006, 06:56:23 PM »

bbd564

Thanks for the reply and the offer to help.  Grin  Questions regarding the Z: 1) Do you have any idea why the original grille was painted black when you bought it? 2) Were the original headlight (HL) covers still on the car and if so were they also painted black or did they have the horizontal chrome/silver bars showing? 3) Would you be kind enough to remove the HL covers ( 4 screws) from both sides and look for a part number or a number in the center back side of the covers and report back what you find? 4) If I understand you right the grille assembly had what you believe were original rivets holding the center grille to an original upper and lower grille....correct?  5) On the replacement grille, could you look on the back side, on the driver side, upper corner about an inch and a half down between the circles and see if you see any numbers? 6)Build date is 07 A,B,C, D ?

Any photos you can provide would be nice.  Would like to have the HL cover info from the L78 but I bet you don't still have it.    Sad     Don't want to over do it, if I haven't already, so will stop now.  Thanks for the input and help.

Steve
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« Reply #145 on: November 15, 2006, 07:06:41 PM »

1) Do you have any idea why the original grille was painted black when you bought it?  No idea

2) Were the original headlight (HL) covers still on the car and if so were they also painted black or did they have the horizontal chrome/silver bars showing?  Original HL covers still on the car and painted black.  I replaced with new GM parts with silver horizontal bars

3) Would you be kind enough to remove the HL covers ( 4 screws) from both sides and look for a part number or a number in the center back side of the covers and report back what you find?  I could but these are GM service replacement parts, so I don't think it would be helpful.

4) If I understand you right the grille assembly had what you believe were original rivets holding the center grille to an original upper and lower grille....correct? Yes, correct   

 5) On the replacement grille, could you look on the back side, on the driver side, upper corner about an inch and a half down between the circles and see if you see any numbers? 6)Build date is 07 A,B,C, D ?

I can't easily get to the car at the moment.  And again this would be a service replacement part

I am apparently out of room, will answer the remaining questions in another post






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« Reply #146 on: November 15, 2006, 07:08:55 PM »

Any photos you can provide would be nice.  Would like to have the HL cover info from the L78 but I bet you don't still have it.   

 L78 car is long gone from my ownership, but still exists
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« Reply #147 on: November 15, 2006, 07:14:15 PM »

Photo of 68 Z from 1990 included in link below

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=139266&Searchpage=8&Main=139147&Words=BillD&topic=&Search=true#Post139266

link brings you to the bottom of the post, scroll up to top and hit attachment for photo.

l78 photo will require me to find a scanner to get images from old photos
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« Reply #148 on: November 15, 2006, 07:23:27 PM »

Thanks.  The reason I ask for the info in #3 & #5 on the replacement parts is to help us ID or differentiate between originals and replacements.  So you gave the HL covers away too, I guess I was thinking you had cleaned them up and reused them.  Thanks again for the info.   Smiley

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« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2006, 10:17:48 PM »

Steve:

I just took a rough inventory of the database with Z22 in this date range, and I'm going to guess those that appear to be both reasonably traceable, and with likely current owner contact info, aren't more than 15 or 20 in number.  I'd also guess that less than 10 would respond to an inquiry, and I'd also guess that you've already covered at least half of those in this thread.  That means an inquiry isn't likely to yield a flood of new data.

That said, every bit helps, and I'll send out a note to those people.  If not tomorrow, then next week when I get back from travel.  I'm wiped out tonight.

Later,

Rich
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« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2006, 11:39:14 AM »

Thanks Rich!  We will hope for the best.  I'm catching some R&R myself.    Grin  Have a safe trip.

Steve
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« Reply #151 on: December 05, 2006, 06:10:57 PM »

Rich

Just checking in to see if you were able to send out the inquiry.

Steve
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« Reply #152 on: December 05, 2006, 09:28:20 PM »

Just sent out the first note tonight - to 17 owners with email address and 68 RS cars built in April or May that were logged as having some supporting documentation.  This is a subset, but generally the best to start with.  We'll see what this cast of the net brings up.  I've already gotten three bounced email messages so far; very typical (how many of you have changed at least one email address in the past 5 years!).  If they actually get the message and reply that is key.  Then all I will ask of them is agreement to allow me to give you their email - you can take it from there, if we get any replies.  If we don't, or if very few, we'll try some of the balance of less documented cars. Rich
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« Reply #153 on: December 06, 2006, 05:55:30 PM »

Sounds like a good plan.   Smiley  Thanks Rich.

Steve
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« Reply #154 on: December 12, 2006, 09:15:28 PM »

Just a note to let everyone know that, through Rich, I have established contact with two folks and I'm waiting on their replies.  I also thought that it might be good to re-post an updated survey so that new members and anyone just acquainting themselves with the thread could add their data without going back through all the previous posts to see what we needed.

1.  Does your car currently have an original center grille?
     A. I am positive.
     B. Almost certain it does
     C. Not sure but it appears to be
     D. No
2.  Rivets holding center to upper/lower grilles
     A. Yes
     B. No (Describe – are they nuts & bolts?)
3.  The center grille currently is:
     A. Black with horizontal chrome stripes
     B. Black
4.  My center grille was replaced in:
     A. 1968
     B. 1969
     C. 1970
     D. 1971
     E. 1972
     F. After 1972
     G. Not sure
     H. Never - Go to question 7
5.  The replacement center grille came from:
     A. GM dealership parts department
     B. NPD, Year One, Ricks, Classic Ind, etc.
     C. Other (Delineate where it came from if you know.)
6.  The replacement part number was GM 3919060
     A. Yes
     B. No
     C. Don't know
7.  Part number or cavity mold number (see the following link for the exact spot to look). http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg7428#msg7428
8.  Driver side headlight (HL) cover number & year (remove 4 screws and look on back side for part number or single number). http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg6271#msg6271
9.  Passenger side HL cover number & year.
10.  My vehicle was build in NOR/LOS (choose one).
11.  The build date of my vehicle is___.
12.  If known, the original engine size is/was____ (cu in/hp or “L” designation).
13.  VIN if you are comfortable in providing this.

Steve
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« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2006, 09:52:18 PM »

Here is a 68 RS Z that has a silver bar grille... it claims 20k miles.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-Z-28-1968-Camaro-RS-Z28-Museum-Quality-Rotis-Resto-NICE-LOOK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQihZ011QQitemZ320064559861QQrdZ1
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« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2006, 11:54:22 PM »

From the auction:

Quote
This Z-28 has received a complete rotisserie restoration a few years ago

Unfortunately, it's been "messed with" so it's not a good candidate for the research Steve's doing. A lot of cars that get "restored" end up getting restored wrong because of misconceptions. (Remember the Bowtie mirror?)

How many folks would have looked at Steve's (or my) car and said: "You've got the wrong grille on there buddy. It's a 67." I would have said the same thing (and did) until this thread started and we discovered there are too many original cars out there with the black grille.

Of course, this grille could still be wrong, but without more folks chiming in, we'll never know "for sure". What we need are a lot more "original" cars dating in the 04A to 06D range to come forward.

I'm still not 100 percent convinced that the black grille was used after the 04A date, but I have to admit, with the information we have so far (replies to this thread, the strange indications in the parts manuals, etc...), I'm not 100 percent against the idea either.

Ed


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« Reply #157 on: December 28, 2006, 08:36:14 AM »

It may be restored but it is only a 20k mile car... it still has the original door panels, headliner, and looks to have original seat covers...  I would be willing to bet that it has an original grille... and it is a 3rd week of June car... with the horizontal silver bars. It is worth a shot...
They may be willing to help...
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« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2006, 01:54:04 PM »

Rich has been providing me with cars from the CRG data base that the owners believe still have original parts and have some "traceability" to that claim.  I have sent a request for info to a handful of them so far and have received responses from all.  However, all have failed to provide any actual data back to me at this time (one is waiting to hear back from the previous owner on a point he needs clarification on before he provides his data - "soon").  The research is slow and I will admit frustrating to me at times.  Frustrating because I know that there are cars out there, original ones, that have original grilles in them that are within the time frames we are interested in and we just can't get our hands on them.  But that's just the way it is......got to live with it.  We will plug away with the research the best way we can and be patient.  I doubt that the folks selling the car would be willing to provide the info we want anyway.......to start pulling the headlight covers off and to look for mold cavity numbers etc is not likely.  It's not that I would not love to go on eBay and start pulling the ones out that look like they would help us.  It just boils down to the originally and traceability issue in the end and how difficult that would be to prove with those vehicles.  Firstgens heart is in the right place and he has been very helpful to us....we appreciate him.  This research requires us to review each cars data with a critical eye and the eBay cars are there to be sold not to help us with research.....so I agree with Ed, we need to concentrate on cars we can be more certain to have their original parts.  Being the original owner of my car I am certain as I can be that my car came with a black grille and headlight covers.  From where I sit Ed's grille and related data is a prime example that supports the theory but I must keep an open mind.  I also think that we may be looking at a block of time in 68 where the grille was black instead of being black to the end of production.  By that I mean the grille started out with the chrome bars, went just black for a short period, and then went back to the chrome (the black grille being painted with chrome horz bars at the plant).  If you have a 68 RS car in or near the range we are looking for then PLEASE provide us with the data requested in the above post (questions 1-13).  Thanks.

Steve
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« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2006, 11:43:08 PM »

I don't have a horse in this race although I have a fondness in my heart for 68 RS/SS's as it was my first firstgen. I also thoroughly enjoy the process of documenting and researching to figure out EXACTLY what is and is not correct... most people could care less though... I can not for the life of me understand their way of thinking... and they probably can not understand mine... it takes all sorts to make this world go round...

Good luck with your research guys... I will continue to help out when I see something...
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« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2007, 09:56:29 PM »

ccargo

Would you be kind enough to take a picture of your original 04A RS silver grille similar to the one in Ed's reply post #27 for me and post it?  Thanks!

Steve
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« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2007, 08:12:30 PM »

here is my 68 rs/ss 396. #'s were checked by an appaiser he said they are correct. no major resto . pass door and fender are not orig. due to accident. still has orig. floor and trunk.
survey questions are 1b 2a 3a 4g 7 have#1 same place 10 nor 11 feb(i have to confirm) I'll pull the cover off and offically answer survey this weekend.
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« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2007, 08:38:35 PM »

Thanks Kev, it's appreciated!

Steve
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« Reply #163 on: January 12, 2007, 06:27:46 PM »

Steve,
 my survey: 1a, 2a, 3b, 4g ,7#1, 8#1, 9 #3 10 nor , 11 02d , 12 396/ 325 hp not sure , 13124378n3896xx. Is it o.k. to put vin#s on board?
 Kevin
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« Reply #164 on: January 12, 2007, 06:38:06 PM »

Kevin

Thanks for the info and for taking the time and effort to get it to us.  Yea, it's OK to post vin's on the board but what you provided in your post is good enough for our purposes in this thread.  Thanks again!

Steve
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« Reply #165 on: January 13, 2007, 01:06:08 PM »

Original paint 04A 15,000 mile car. The car is currently in storage and it will be spring before I could get more detailed photos.
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« Reply #166 on: January 13, 2007, 01:15:55 PM »

Thanks ccargo.  I was hoping for a close-up shot but I understand.  Does anyone else with an original silver/chrome RS grille have a picture that they can post here for us?  Looking for one that would be something like this....http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg6237#msg6237

Steve
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« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2007, 08:10:52 PM »

Wanted to share some recent off-line discussions I had with JohnZ regarding a part number change, in this case a 67 RS grille, which I feel is relevant to this thread.  I cited a specific example to him but as you will see in the end what essentially came out of the exchange is when the AIM shows a part number change then a part has been removed from service and another new part put in its place with a new part number.  That in itself seems straight forward and simple enough, but what is more interesting and what came out of the discussion is if there is a “minor” change made to a part then the drawing is revised and the drawing revision block has a date put in for that change.  Below are the exchanges (I’ve shortened and paraphrased my questions to save space):

Steve - That's a revision record of a "running change", where one part was cancelled and replaced by another one; there were hundreds of these through the model year. The date in the revision record was the date of the change at Engineering, but the actual effective date in production (on the line) could have been a month or two either before or after the date in the revision block - the effective date was tracked in a different system with an NPC (Notice of Production Change).

John

Question: So that part number change would mean that there would have actually been a change in the part and not simply the same part but with a different part number assigned to it?


Steve - When a part number changed, it was because the part actually changed to a different part; the previous part was cancelled, and replaced by the new part. Very minor changes in a part were handled with drawing changes, but those never changed the part number.

John


Question: What about drawing-only changes?

Steve
The only way to confirm a drawing-only change is to have the GM part drawing and look at the change history in the revision block; usually the only folks that have the original drawing are manufacturers of GM-licensed reproduction parts.


As those of you that have been following this thread already know the 68 RS center grille (part # 3919060) started the 68 production run with the chrome/silver horizontal bars.  No part number change has ever taken place with the grille although the chrome/silver horizontal bars were dropped at some point.  Was this a “minor” drawing change?  Don’t know, but I intend to pursue this as best I can (I have a GM lead) at the same time we continue to collect actual car data.

We have been successful in obtaining some additional info from one of the other persons that Rich put us in contact with.  He actually has two cars and the data he supplied for now supports the theory.  His 05 car also had the lower grille to valance screw/u-nut attachments found on Ed’s, Mark’s, and my car which, again if you have been following the thread, is an anomaly to the AIM.

Rich, I'm ready for more contacts if you have some.  Smiley

Steve

Note: See post 154 if you want to add your RS data.
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« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2007, 11:25:52 PM »

Hi All -

   I looked at a 04D Los Angeles built '68 RallySport "survivor" today. The center grille had been replaced as there was no sign of the old "chrome". However, the right and left headlamp covers appeared original as lots of "chrome" was still present on them.
I took a couple of photos if anybody is interested. Hope this info helps.

Paul  
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« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2007, 11:13:33 PM »

Hi Steve -

   I have already emailed you some of the photos I took of this car per your request. I would appreciate it if you could post them here if you are able. I don't have the software to resize them. Hope the photos are of help.

Paul
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« Reply #170 on: February 04, 2007, 05:30:08 PM »

Here are a couple of the pictures that Paul provided that I re-sized for posting.

Steve
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« Reply #171 on: February 04, 2007, 05:31:23 PM »

Two more pictures of same car.  Thanks Paul!

Steve
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« Reply #172 on: February 04, 2007, 11:48:22 PM »

Steve -

   Thanks for getting the photos posted.  This vehicle was packed (I couldn't even see the right side) inside a dark shop.  I got all the usual "numbers" off it, but didn't think to check the numbers of the headlamp covers at the time.  It's a true "survivor" and even sports its original engine. Unfortunately it's a "rust bucket" needing all the sheet metal (including the roof panel) replaced.   Sad  Very unusual for sunny California   Cool  It must have spent its life right on the coast.  Does anybody need a parts car?

Paul    

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« Reply #173 on: February 25, 2007, 12:51:39 PM »

Steve,

Sorry, for the delay but I have your information.

1. A. I an positive.

2. A. Yes

3. A. Black with horizontal chome stripes.  I don't believe they were chrome.  The original finish looked  like silver highlighted horizontal ribs.  I had mine painted Argent Silver a few years ago because the original finish was almost all worn off.

4. H. Never

7. There are no markings or stamps on the Drivers side of the grill.  On the passengers side there is a horizontal backwards 2 between the top and middle mold marks.  It appears the mold had a two die include and it printed backwards.  No other markings that I could find.

8 & 9.  The drivers side highlight cover has a horizantal backwards 1 (one) and the passengers side has a 2 stamped the same way.  The 2 matches the 2 on the grill.  No other markings could be found.

10. Norwood

11. The fourth week of January 1968.

12. The original engine is still in the car, L78 396/375hp.

13.  Steve, I will email you with my Vin #.  I would appreciate it if you would not share it.

I hope this helps.

Bud
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« Reply #174 on: February 25, 2007, 02:07:12 PM »

Bud

Thanks for the data.  It is very much appreciated and it does help.  What VIN?  Wink  As for your data, it is typical of what we would expect to see on an 01D car with the data collected so far.  The only thing that was a little unexpected was the number 2 on the passengers side headlight cover.  I only have one other data point with a 2 for that side and it is on an 05E car.  As for us calling the horizontal bars (some call them ribs) chrome, it's just what we started off with I guess not knowing any better.  Silver may be a more appropriate approximation of the original color of the material on the bars/ribs.  I believe the material is actually aluminum.

Steve
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« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2007, 08:55:04 AM »

Steve,

You could be correct on the finish of the bars/ribs.  What little I had left looked like siver paint.

As for the headlight doors I could not find when they were manufactured.  They could have all been produced at one or two times during the production year. That would explain the space in the dates you have.

Bud
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« Reply #176 on: March 03, 2007, 05:44:54 PM »

Hi All -

   I looked at a 04D Los Angeles built '68 RallySport "survivor" today. The center grille had been replaced as there was no sign of the old "chrome". However, the right and left headlamp covers appeared original as lots of "chrome" was still present on them.
I took a couple of photos if anybody is interested. Hope this info helps.

Paul  

Hi all:

I looked at the pics Steve posted and have a question.  If this is a survivor 04D car shouldn't it have the D90 stripe not the D91 stripe?  I thought the D91 was replaced in January of 68 with the D90.

Mark
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« Reply #177 on: March 03, 2007, 06:15:04 PM »

Mark the D91 remained an option throughout the rest of the 1968 model year on all models except the SS and Z28.

Ed
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« Reply #178 on: March 04, 2007, 08:34:35 PM »

Ed:

I did not know that.  Thanks for setting me straight.

Mark
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« Reply #179 on: March 07, 2007, 02:00:52 PM »

Hi Steve -

Just a heads up.  There's a 1968 Rally Sport on Ebay with what appears to be "chrome" on the headlamp doors (check out the photo of the "327" emblem in the listing).  I can't read the build date on the trim plate, all four photos are out of focus!  There is a phone number listed so you can call and talk to the seller if needed.  Also, I know we have a few CRG members in Southern California who might want to go on a field trip.   Wink   Here's the Ebay link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160091145412&rd=1&rd=1

Paul
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« Reply #180 on: March 09, 2007, 07:10:11 PM »

Thanks Paul.  That car is to early in the year to be of any use to us.  From the ad:
Quote
The vehicle from the cowl tag shows it was built in the 5th week of September, in Norwood, Ohio.
  What we are focusing on at this time are vehicles from no earlier than 04A to the end of production.  But thanks anyway!

Steve
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« Reply #181 on: March 10, 2007, 11:06:20 PM »

You're right Steve.  I guess I should read the text too, instead of just looking at the pictures.   Embarrassed

Paul
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« Reply #182 on: March 11, 2007, 10:01:13 AM »

That's OK Paul and quite understandable that you would focus on the pictures especially since the car is a 68!  Grin  It's hard to force yourself to read when looking at near perfection!!   Cheesy

Steve
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« Reply #183 on: April 15, 2007, 01:52:41 PM »

Here's some information for your database. I'll answer the polling questions from early in the thread.

1. A                                       Build Date: 12B        Partial VIN: 124378L316XXX

2. B

3. A

4. H

Daryl
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« Reply #184 on: April 15, 2007, 05:30:27 PM »

Thanks Daryl.  It's appreciated!!  Any other new folks with cars built in the 04D to end of production range that would care to provide data?  Here is the post with the questions to answer  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg8277#msg8277.

Steve
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« Reply #185 on: April 17, 2007, 06:20:13 PM »

Guys:

Haven't checked in here in awhile been at Teams Camaro and Chevelle.  Just some additional informationfrom some of the posts.  I am reasonably sure that the "chrome" is probably a silver foil hot stamp.  That would explain why GM went to the raised rib in 68 as it is easier to get the hot stamp only on the high spot of the ribs. It's a fairly simple and inexpensive process and is frequently done right at the molding machine when the part is still warm.  If this is true there wouldn't really be too much of a financial reason why GM would stop the process unless they were really having problems with it.

Mark
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« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2007, 07:46:04 PM »

Mark

I have been off-line for awhile and just saw your latest post.  Could you expand on why you believe it was a hot stamp process used on the grille? 
Quote
I am reasonably sure that the "chrome" is probably a silver foil hot stamp.
We definitely see metallizing used on other parts of the car.

Steve
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« Reply #187 on: January 02, 2008, 08:17:28 PM »

Steve:

Sorry to have been away for so long.  The vacuum metallizing proceses that I am familiar with have a much higher shine/chrome look than is on any of the grills I have seen.  In addition the vacuum metallizing would require some serious masking.  The hot stamp process is another process to get the silver foil look and parts that I have made and hot stamped with a silver foil look like the grills I have seen.  The hot stamp process wil also not require any special masking as they will just hot stamp on the raised surface.

Of course this is speculation and only a process control plan or specification from the factory will tell for sure.

Hope everyone has been well.  I seriously need to get over here more often.  I have been invloved with this Chevelle project and it is taking all my time.

Mark
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« Reply #188 on: January 22, 2008, 07:49:19 PM »

Just wanted to take a minute and update everyone interested in this subject and who has contributed data to the research.  We are currently waiting on an individual who has access to some resources to provide some info.  I expect the info to result in a final opinion on this so stay tuned.

Steve
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« Reply #189 on: January 25, 2008, 06:53:32 AM »

What about the repo chrome grills? I bought one for my car & was't that happy with the quality of it. Is there more than one maker? It was made overseas. The HL covers were way better Quality and made in the USA. Whats everybody doing for replacements? I have never seen a new NOS chrome. Thanks JW
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« Reply #190 on: January 25, 2008, 02:20:00 PM »

Hi Guy's
  My Two Cents, I have a 05C RS/SS the original grill was replaced in 1980. (Drunk chick backed into it) it still had the fadded silver paint on the grill, the replacement came from cormier chevrolet, but only in black. I tried to find a painted grill but could not. At the time the only other source was CLASSIC CAMARO (in Palm Springs back then) they only had GM-OEM  parts, but did not Know what i was talking about.  Some things never change.
                                                                                                    Victor
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« Reply #191 on: January 25, 2008, 07:56:48 PM »

The research brought out that GM still does manufacture the grille but only in black.  They have NOT licenced anyone to reproduce it.  It is still a profitable item for them.  That does not mean that someone else is not out there making copies of it and selling it to us.  The GM black grille is being covered with a "chrome" substance to provide a chrome grille.  Many do not think it is equivalent to the original look.

Steve
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« Reply #192 on: January 26, 2008, 05:52:23 AM »

I was looking in Rick's catalog & they show 3 differant ones, a chromed import, a US made one, & a Gm chromed one. I'am going to give them a call. The one I bought from another place was the import from Taiwan. Seems to be to narrow on one end & don't line up with HL covers. The one I was replacing was a black Gm I bought in 2000.   
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« Reply #193 on: January 26, 2008, 06:25:35 PM »

Victor, the research shows that your vehicle is in the week of manufacture that was likely one of the last to receive the chrome grille. 

z-villejw, let us know what they say.


Steve
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« Reply #194 on: March 07, 2008, 07:22:29 AM »

Just getting over eye surgery. I ordered the chrome GM grill from Rick's & it came yesterday. It came in a GM box, it had been chromed on the edge by somebody & wrapped in newspaper. Grill looks alot better & is not as flimsey as the import. Currant price is $144.00. I will be installing in the next couple of weeks. Anybody know how is making this part for Rick?

Once I install I will post on the fit.
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« Reply #195 on: March 08, 2008, 12:20:12 PM »

jw

It seems to me that during the research I was told that CHQ was doing the chroming or providing the chrome grille to suppliers for resale.  I may have it in my notes........will check.

Steve
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« Reply #196 on: March 11, 2008, 10:28:55 PM »

I have the 10-1-66, 10-1-67, 10-1-68, 2-15-69, and 6/70 original parts books, as well as the cumulative 1965-1973 superceded numbers index and the cumulative 1965-1973 reverse superceded numbers index.  If you can give me the original number for each component piece you're interested in, I can tell you the exact month and year it was superceded or discontinued, and the replacement no. if there was one.  I'd be happy to help.  Jeff
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« Reply #197 on: March 12, 2008, 07:19:17 PM »

Jeff

Thanks for the offer to help.  I assume you mean P&A books when you refer to the parts books.  I also have most of these, and some other period parts books, with the exception of the reverse index.  The research has been ongoing for well over a year now and currently waiting on some info from an individual that should answer any remaining questions.  However, until he does provide that info we welcome any and all input and help that comes our way!  Smiley First, have you read the first part of the thread?  The part numbers for the grille and headlight covers are in the first posts and the research is attempting to demonstrate that the grille changed late in the model year from a RS grille with chrome horizontal ribs to all black but the part number (060) for the grille was not changed or superseded.  Next, take a look at your books and see what they show and also see if you find any notes that say anything about "paint as required".  If you do let me know the reference date and the part it refers to.  Thanks again for the interest and help it is really appreciated.

Steve
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« Reply #198 on: December 08, 2009, 11:17:47 AM »

We are looking for any later 68 RS cars (non-SS) with original grilles to wrap up this research. Condition is not important, as long as some of the grille is probably original. Preferred build dates of April 68 and later.
Any info would be helpful. Thanks!
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« Reply #199 on: December 29, 2009, 08:51:34 AM »

Here is the data base information from my 68 Rally Sport ;
1.A
2.B
3.A
4.A

7.No markins on driver side,Backwards 2 on passenger side
8.N/A (been altered)
9.N/A (been altered)
10.Norwood
11.02D
12.327/275
13.124378N386xxx

Along with my original chrome grill that is still rivited to upper and lower grill mouldings,

1- #3919060 Black Grill still in the box that was purchased around 1983

1-#03919060 Chrome Grill stillin the box that is dated 5/30/96

Mark

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« Reply #200 on: December 30, 2009, 09:41:10 PM »

Here's the original survey:

[Oops, didn't see the updated version that Steve posted below.....]
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« Reply #201 on: December 31, 2009, 09:37:46 AM »

Correction from my previous post.

1.A

2.B

3.A

4.H

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« Reply #202 on: December 31, 2009, 11:34:34 AM »

Thanks Mark for the info.  Here is the updated survey from post 154 which corresponds to Mark's answers.

1.  Does your car currently have an original center grille?
     A. I am positive.
     B. Almost certain it does
     C. Not sure but it appears to be
     D. No
2.  Rivets holding center to upper/lower grilles
     A. Yes
     B. No (Describe – are they nuts & bolts?)
3.  The center grille currently is:
     A. Black with horizontal chrome stripes
     B. Black
4.  My center grille was replaced in:
     A. 1968
     B. 1969
     C. 1970
     D. 1971
     E. 1972
     F. After 1972
     G. Not sure
     H. Never - Go to question 7
5.  The replacement center grille came from:
     A. GM dealership parts department
     B. NPD, Year One, Ricks, Classic Ind, etc.
     C. Other (Delineate where it came from if you know.)
6.  The replacement part number was GM 3919060
     A. Yes
     B. No
     C. Don't know
7.  Part number or cavity mold number (see the following link for the exact spot to look). http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg7428#msg7428
8.  Driver side headlight (HL) cover number & year (remove 4 screws and look on back side for part number or single number). http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1087.msg6271#msg6271
9.  Passenger side HL cover number & year.
10.  My vehicle was build in NOR/LOS (choose one).
11.  The build date of my vehicle is___.
12.  If known, the original engine size is/was____ (cu in/hp or “L” designation).
13.  VIN if you are comfortable in providing this.
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« Reply #203 on: March 26, 2010, 04:40:04 PM »

I have received several emails over the last few months from many of you me asking what the status of the research is and when you might see a report. 
All I can tell you right now is that the report has been writen and is under review.  I hope that it will be available very soon.  Thanks to all who particiapated and for the interest.

Steve
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« Reply #204 on: June 26, 2010, 01:01:10 AM »

Congratulations Steve on writing the article on the 68 RS grilles (and your patience with my editing!)! Nice research work!

http://www.camaros.org/68rs.shtml
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« Reply #205 on: June 26, 2010, 11:06:15 AM »

Nice job Steve!  The '68 Rally Sport Camaro has to be the sexist of all Camaros...    Grin

Paul
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« Reply #206 on: June 26, 2010, 08:47:23 PM »

Thanks guys!  I really enjoyed doing the research.  I thank all that participated and provided their time, critical info, and support.  I especially appreciated the continuing encouragement and help from Ed, Kurt, and Rich.

Steve
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« Reply #207 on: June 28, 2010, 06:02:58 AM »

Outstanding!

Mike
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« Reply #208 on: July 05, 2010, 06:20:04 AM »

I have the original grille in my 07C Norwood 68 SSRS 350 and it has the silver horizontal lines.  I also found a Polaroid picture when I bought the car in 1982 showing the grille.
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« Reply #209 on: July 05, 2010, 10:21:37 AM »

Thanks noschevys for the picture.  Would you mind taking some pictures of the inside of the grille where it attaches to the upper and lower grilles?  I am particularly interested in the rivets.  If it would not be asking to much I would appreciate you removing the headlight covers (4 screws) and taking a pic of that too.  Would you also note whether there are part numbers or mold numbers on the back side of the headlight covers.  One last request, would you take a picture of the back of the car?  Thanks!

Steve
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« Reply #210 on: July 05, 2010, 07:15:15 PM »

No problem.  Give me a couple of days since I am out of town.
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« Reply #211 on: July 05, 2010, 08:38:11 PM »

Thanks!  Another question:  is the paint on the car original?

Steve
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« Reply #212 on: July 06, 2010, 05:17:19 AM »

Not in that picture, but when I bought it in 82 it was.  Here is a scanned copy of the polaroid when I bought it in 1982 with original paint and silver lines on the grille.
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« Reply #213 on: July 09, 2010, 01:26:06 PM »

noschevys

Quote
Thanks noschevys for the picture.  Would you mind taking some pictures of the inside of the grille where it attaches to the upper and lower grilles?  I am particularly interested in the rivets.  If it would not be asking to much I would appreciate you removing the headlight covers (4 screws) and taking a pic of that too.  Would you also note whether there are part numbers or mold numbers on the back side of the headlight covers.


Just checking in with you.   Smiley

Steve 
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« Reply #214 on: December 17, 2013, 09:52:45 PM »

Hey guys I know this is a really old thread but I am about ready to order a new grill for my 05D SSRS 396 and wanted to make sure the grill with the chrome was correct for my car. When I bought my car in Feb. 1980 it had been wrecked and a we put a new Black grill and left side head light cover. The right side cover was original to the best of my knowledge and looks like it has traces of chrome on it.

Here a few pictures and any all input would be greatly appreciated.




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« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2013, 09:53:10 AM »

From the picture it looks like your headlight cover is original and possibly had the chrome ribs.  It is also possible that someone may have sprayed (after the wreck) gray primer on it and then black paint which has worn off exposing the gray. Note that the chrome around the outside is in pretty good condition.  One would expect the perimeter chrome to wear like that on the ribs.   You may have one of the last of these chrome grilles installed on your 05D car as the change over from chrome to black was around this time frame (last of May).  Do you see a mold number on the back side?  Have you read the report on the RS grille?  Here is the link:  http://www.camaros.org/68rs.shtml

Steve
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« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2013, 10:38:00 AM »

Thank you Steve for the quick response & the link. The grill & head light covers got sprayed back in early 81 when I had the car painted The only pic I can find from back then that shows the cover on it is this one, but it is so bad I can't see anything anyway, lol...


I dont remember it being chrome & I was just a 14 year old kid anyway so I probably didn't car anyhow.  Grin  I am sure it was painted long before I bought the car anyway, as the kid I bought the car from had changed the color to Gold from Butternut & done some pretty bad repairs to the car, prior to wrecking the car & then selling it to me.

Here are a few more of the head light cover. The mold # is 3


I took a knife and scratched the black paint off the horizontal bar and it likes it could have been chrome?? I also did it on the vertical bar & it didn't show anything but Black, so I think that would rule out primer??


Here is another pic of the outside chrome piece , I am pretty sure it has been masked and painted as the tape line looks to be very inconsistent.

Thank you again for all the great info,
 Nick
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« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2013, 11:56:48 AM »

The 3 is consistent with an original part.  Do you care to scrape some of the outside chrome to see if it is paint?  The photo looks as if repairs had been made to the car at this point.  The Polaroid photo, to me, does look like it could have chrome on the horizontal ribs but we have seen other such photo's that looked that way and it turned out to be just a light reflection on the higher edge.  If you will send me a personal message with the VIN it might help.

Steve
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« Reply #218 on: December 18, 2013, 12:16:21 PM »

Steve68,
 I think I sent you a PM with the vin, but it isn't showing up on my end, can you confirm you received it?

Do you want me to scrape the out side of the cover its self or do you mean the door cover molding?
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« Reply #219 on: December 18, 2013, 12:49:58 PM »

Got your PM.  Scrape the door cover molding outside chrome a little.  Sent you a reply PM.
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« Reply #220 on: December 19, 2013, 02:58:28 PM »

Steve,
 here is the pic you requested, it looks like where I scraped it, it's just metal under the polished area. I dont see any paint or anything else. 
Thanks again,
 Nick
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« Reply #221 on: December 22, 2013, 08:52:31 AM »

Note that the chrome around the outside is in pretty good condition.  One would expect the perimeter chrome to wear like that on the ribs.  

The perimeter, or headlight cover trim, is not chrome but anodized aluminum with painted black. Same as upper and lower grill moldings and headlight bezels. The ribs are an applied finish and will wear off.

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« Reply #222 on: March 19, 2014, 04:13:02 PM »

The ribs are either stamped foil or the whole thing was vacuum metalized then painted.
I do not believe it is possible vacuum metalize a specific area of a part.
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James
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