Ending "Number Matching Crap" has to start at the top!

[JohnZ]

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once.

Neither the NCRS nor Bloomington Gold (the two primary Corvette judging organizations) uses or recognizes the term "matching numbers", as that phrase can mean many different things to different people.

Both of those organizations have completely separate judging policies and procedures for unrestored vs. restored cars. Bloomington Gold Certification and NCRS Flight Judging  consider both the appearance of originality and condition, and are open to restored cars AND unrestored cars, although most in these categories are restored cars. NCRS Flight Judging is done based on the extent to which the car deviates from a published standard (each year Corvette has its own highly-detailed 150-page judging guide), and Bloomington Gold judging generally follows a similar process, although not to the same level of detail.

Unrestored original cars are judged in the NCRS in the "Star/Bowtie" category, which ONLY considers pure originality (Is that the part originally installed on the car at St. Louis?), and there is NO "condition" judging. All four areas (Interior, Exterior, Mechanical, and Chassis) are judged independently, and each must score as 80%-85% original to earn a "Star" award for that area. If all four areas pass, the car earns the "Bowtie" award.

The Bloomington Gold "Survivor" judging criteria are different - the car needs to score at least 50% original for a pass in each of the four areas, but it only needs to pass three of the four areas to earn the "Survivor" award; one area can fail completely and the car can still earn "Survivor".

[Dusk Blue Z]

John, thanks for the great information and insight into the world of Corvette judging.

My question now would be who is the current leader in Camaro judging, and is there an “available” published standard that we all could use as a reference when restoring our cars?

Mike 

[IZRSSS]

Mike – I think Jerry might have some good information as well; http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9707.0

FWIW- my sights are set on the Camaro Nationals and the Bowtie & Legend class. I don’t know of a more controlled format for fair and unbiased judging. It’s my understanding the cars in these two categories are judged solely against themselves. Here is a site I’ve hung onto which gives an excellent description of their format; in the center of the page in green print: “Classes judged to A.C.A. guidelines & scoring systems”. And on the left column you’ll find two useful PDF’s; “Legend Prequalification”, and “4 Page Flyer”.

http://www.americancamaro.org/nationals.php

Hope this helps.

[lakeholme]

Maroman,
Read the Bowtie class info on the four page flyer from Camaro  Nationals that Marty posted the  link. I think that's where any restoration for judging should move towards in terms of originality.

[maroman]

I'm with you on that, Phil. I've been told by the Boss that they don't have time to check all that stuff on the showfield. I understand that. BUT, it could be policed for GN or SGN cars for sure.  As I said before I've been told I don't understand, AND I AGREED. A fake is still a fake, no matter what award it's given.

[Sauron327]

So what's the deal with this car which is claimed to be a rebody? What did they do about the hiddens?  http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=209853

[Mike S]

So what's the deal with this car which is claimed to be a rebody? What did they do about the hiddens?  http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=209853

 He claims the car is done with 100% GM sheet metal. So we know GM doesn't make bodies so either he is misleading on purpose or the person who claims to have seen this car before and was re-bodied is wrong. Maybe someone should call him out on this?
 I find it comical that the car hobby has slipped low to the point where any car is assumed guilty of being a fake until proven real. Maybe the price bottom should drop out to lets things settle to realistic values and human morals restored.

Mike

[IZRSSS]

Sellers quote; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Z-28-Camaro-Real-Deal-Code-4L-Super-Rare-302-Amazing-Restoration-MUST-SEE-/160830671961?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2572414c59

"As most of you know they only made 602 of these awesome rare true muscle cars.  I have talked to Jerry McNeish and he has verified this car has been listed in the 1967 Z28 registry for around 20 years or so.  The car has a really neat history and  is really rare to have some original paperwork on the car from the dealership it was sold at new".

Jerry- can you fill us in

[Sauron327]

I call them incomplete truths. Rebodies, restamps and drivetrain swaps. This type of thing has been going on since the 70's and earlier and still is; nothing new here. And none of the power sellers or people in the hobby(business) higher in the food chain have ever had their hands involved in any of it, or deal with those that do so they can gain indirectly. They have too much integrity.

[Jerry@CHP]

What I can tell you is the cowl tag is real and this car was entered into the registry about 20 years ago.  Have I inspected it in person?  No.  So, I do not know any of the details about this car.  I have not seen the hidden vin #'s or drive train stampings to know if they are original to the car or not.......

Jerry 

[IZRSSS]

I call them incomplete truths. Rebodies, restamps and drivetrain swaps.

Thanks Jerry! Falls right in line with what Scott said. So at this point its anyones guess as to the integrity of this car.

Isn't it unusual for a car this special to have its engine pad buried in that much paint?

[x77-69z28]

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL

[maroman]

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL

And if you transfer the serial number tag you are breaking state law if not federal law. In PA. it would require a state issued mu,ber tag with a reconstructed title.

[IZRSSS]

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL

Again, this has nothing to do with partial body replacement parts. But being a naturalist as most of us are, wouldn't you have major reservations about replacing an entire body with a repop? I think someone mentioned somewhere, on this thread or somewhere else, "You have to draw the line somewhere". This is as good a place as any to draw that line!

[maroman]

Marty, I think I remember a ZL-1 discussion here recently. The car was "rebodied" and the interior replaced during restoration. It had been a drag car from new, so it surely didn't have the right engine block or transmission, possibly the rear end too. The wheels would have certainly replaced with mags, too. So what was left of the original car? And if I remember right it brought $400,000 at auction.