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Author Topic: Ending "Number Matching Crap" has to start at the top!  (Read 8665 times)
JoeC
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 06:42:31 AM »

one thing that may help, is to have more disclosure.

There are many court cases where the buyer uses the legal system to return a car or get a settlement for a misrepsented car.

Some of this is public information , if the case was posted on the car web sites, it may serve as a deterrence for the people who build or sell fake cars.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 12:08:23 PM »

and the other point to note is that Rick Hendrix probably doesn't deal in the 'day to day' activities (of either his racing enterprises, OR the collecting enterprises)..  he has his 'people' do that stuff...   and I'm sure they are more interested in preserving their jobs than they are in being honest and truthful about every car that comes thru the collection..
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 12:11:30 PM »

Joe - On the surface that is perhaps the best idea anyone could have come up with. It sure sounds easy enough too but as with anything, I’m sure there is a long list of laundry issues that would keep that from happening. For example;
 
a.   Do all states offer this information free of charge?
b.   How does one verify the information he/she receives online is gospel?
c.   How does one keep track of vehicles whose Drivetrain were once cloned and all of a sudden ends up finding its mate?
d.   And, most important; what prevents a person/website from getting sued over posting false information even if it wasn’t intentional?

Something tells me “numbers matching crap” upsets CRG core members more than you or I will ever know. I am also certain if there was a more efficient way of exposing these practices it would have been done by now. Has CRG ever been hesitant to state whether or not a given First Gen is numbers or not?  Nope, it’s like they can’t wait to let us know. And that’s just fine with me!!!!!!!!  Grin
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mickeystoys69RSSS
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »

Marty,
Most importantly if there is a settlement for the buyer it comes with a nondisclosure statement.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 07:17:33 PM »

and the other point to note is that Rick Hendrix probably doesn't deal in the 'day to day' activities (of either his racing enterprises, OR the collecting enterprises)..  he has his 'people' do that stuff...  and I'm sure they are more interested in preserving their jobs than they are in being honest and truthful about every car that comes thru the collection..
I understand what you're saying but I still have a difficult time believing it. Mr. Hendricks, or any person for that matter who has a large company must (or at the very least should) have a go-to-person that keeps him/her advised on important and potentially harmful activities within a company (or perhaps a Board of Directors???). I just can't accept anyone being that naive or that misinformed.

If I found out someone within my small company was compromising its integrity, they'd be out on the street so fast it would make their head spin!

Marty,
Most importantly if there is a settlement for the buyer it comes with a nondisclosure statement.
Point well taken.
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vtfb68
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2012, 11:57:48 PM »

Marty,
 What is your gripe about "Numbers matching" exactly? They should be considered or not? Considered too much or not enough? you feel you been cheated? Jumping from judging to fake tags, I must have missed something, Just trying to follow what your lashing out about.
   VT
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 07:55:23 AM »

VT- Numbers Matching refers to a vehicle that still retains its Original Factory Drivetrain components; i.e., Engine, Transmission & Rear. IMO these are the only vehicles that should be allowed to compete at top shows for top awards where categories are based on originality. Once a car is considered for one of these top awards it should be scrutinized down to the numbers to see if it indeed warrants one of these awards. I haven't had the opportunity to attend one of these shows but if I ever do I would like to think these practices are in place.
 
Do I feel I've been cheated in competition; No. Do I feel I've been cheated because of all the “Numbers Matching Garbage” that's out there; not necessarily cheated, concerned!
 
Hope this answers your question.   
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vtfb68
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 08:34:15 AM »

Marty,
 A bit. I do not follow jugding, don't care. So they consider phoney stamps as real? Or they don't even check?
 IMO Jugding is just that... Jugding.. Opinion. If they just used a check list the same cars would win everything every time. Anything that has to be jugded in in the hands of humans. Somebody elses car or opinion does not effect me.
   Good luck,
   VT
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05C LA RS/SS U2 712 L34 M21 BR
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2012, 04:03:08 PM »

My car has the original engine and rear....the Turbo 350 was long gone....I don't consider my car a clone since it is an original SS.

Mike – I'm not back tracking here just missed an important point. Your car has its original ENGINE and rear (the ENGINE being the deciding factor). You have also honestly admitted its missing its matching transmission. As far as I'm concern it's certainly in the running for any top original award. If you were in the running for the top award at one of these shows and your competition was another admitted original ENGINE First Gen but missing either its tranny or rear the deciding factor should be based on how the rest of the cars overall appearance and components presented themselves.

On the other hand, if one of you attempted to pass your cars off as “Number Matching” and it was later found one of the Drivetrain components was popped (engine, trans, or rear) then that owner's car should be disqualified and logged into a data base.

For the sake of argument I am not talking about the Camaro Nationals. I'm assuming those guys can spot a fake the minute it comes through the gate. Or mere minutes into an inspection.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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camaronut
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 06:31:42 PM »

I will say one thing that really gets my hair on end and are those new full body Camaros in a crate....
I'm sure there are cars out there that have old trim / vin / hidden number plates removed from original Camaros and placed on those new bodied cars.......which drives me insane.
If a car that is far gone with rust and beyond repair, then so be it.....it should be gone.....but there's always those folks who see opportunity to screw someone out of cash and create the same car all over again.....especially if it's a L78 / Z28....
Hopefully, there's something on these new body cars that separate them from the originals so you can spot these things during an inspection....
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 07:30:38 PM »

We're certainly on the same page!!!  Wink
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Sauron327
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 07:58:17 PM »

Hopefully, there's something on these new body cars that separate them from the originals so you can spot these things during an inspection....
Besides the sheetmetal run numbers shown on this site, there are other stampings throughout the structure. You'd have to have ask someone to disassemble their car to verify it. I'm willing to bet there are some high dollar cars out there that have had just about every panel replaced except parts of the main structure. And even those can be replaced. Not much difference between that and a D'corn body. If someone's pride and joy, matching numbers car got T-boned, you think they'd put a whole side on it or part it out, junk the body and just save the drivetrain? You can buy the entire side structure in one piece.
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lakeholme
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 08:07:38 AM »

If you've ever looked at many restored Pre-War cars (that didn't get modified), many of them have sheet metal from two or more other cars. That's the only way they could reconstruct a whole car, and they don't have anyone stamping parts for them to buy. I'm aware of a beautiful Packard that is really three cars to make one. Obviously, we're no where close to that with Camaros yet. Still, that's what makes survivors so important and truly valuable.
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Phillip
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 11:50:55 AM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe
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lakeholme
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 01:43:23 PM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe

By the workmanship and appearance that makes them simulate what came from tbe factory, which BTW was not exactly perfect.  But, Joe, you make an important point. If you are judging by true originality, a survivor would always get more deductions than a restored car. It has over four decades of wear and tear.
AACA has recently added a new Original award to the HPOF category, which means it is "significantly original". But HPOF is not exactly point judged. The judging team certifies originality. And as several have said that requires a different kind of "judgement".
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Phillip
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Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
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